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04-30-2012, 10:03 PM
  #151
TravisUlrich
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Fleury sucked this postseason. It is what it is.
Yup. And he's been to the Finals twice. For anyone on here to say that we can't win a Cup with Fleury well, that's already been proven wrong so I don't know what to do for you. And it's not like we had crazy awesome D in 2008 or 2009. They played well but it wasn't our strong suit, in fact it was our weakest area. If anything, Fleury's proven that he needs adequate D to win games. And that's what a good goaltender gets you but with our D playing the way it was, no goalie in the world was going to win us that series. Not even the mighty Mike Smith who is God to everyone here all the sudden.

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04-30-2012, 10:07 PM
  #152
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Yup. And he's been to the Finals twice. For anyone on here to say that we can't win a Cup with Fleury well, that's already been proven wrong so I don't know what to do for you. And it's not like we had crazy awesome D in 2008 or 2009. They played well but it wasn't our strong suit, in fact it was our weakest area. If anything, Fleury's proven that he needs adequate D to win games. And that's what a good goaltender gets you but with our D playing the way it was, no goalie in the world was going to win us that series. Not even the mighty Mike Smith who is God to everyone here all the sudden.
I beg to differ. Watching that Hawks series, the guy was stoning guys left and right. He was being hung out to dry alot. But....goalies playing that hot are not that common. If Fleury played like Smith did against the Hawks, we would have won in 6.

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04-30-2012, 10:07 PM
  #153
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I absolutely do not want a defensive powerhouse. Look at the Caps right now, playing really good defensively and Ovechkin got 13 minutes tonight. It wont be long before he wants out of Washington at this rate.

I cant even imagine how ****** it would be to be a caps fan when they used to be unreal offensively and great to watch. Now theyve turned one of the best players in the game into a 4th liner who gets PP time and 65 points a year instead.

How boring.

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04-30-2012, 10:07 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by metalan2 View Post
You can't argue with stats, and it is borderline delusional to bring up just one save that Capitals series.

Fleury almost single handedly lost us that series, and if it the Penguins weren't another level above the Caps they would have lost it. The cup run Fleury barely had a .900 sv pct, and had absolutely abysmal series vs Washington and Detroit.


The Penguins were just a cut above the rest that playoffs. People like you like to bring up the Ovechkin breakaway and the Lidstrom save as the sole reason we won the cup. People like you also fail to remember any of the other games the Penguins lost and had to battle back from, constantly fighting back from back breaking goals, soft goals, and misplays on the puck. Things have just gotten much worse from there.


Four years of horrendous goaltending is enough, and I'm not sure when you Fleury sympathizers will get with the program.


Just look at the Wash v Rangers tonight. There were glorious scoring chances on both ends, but most were stopped. If those chances were against Fleury, those chances would have went in, and the Penguins defense would be blamed for giving up a scoring chance. This also happens in every NHL game, goalies stop scoring chances.


I'll say it again, if Fleury even had a .900 sv pct, the Penguins are still playing, but that is just too much to ask for superstar goaltender MAF.
Seriously....quit being a Penguin fan and root for the Flyers! you have no clue. You look for every missed play by the goalie , or every soft goal and say the Penguins were just so awesome that they won with this with a garbage goalie. Hell I can look at every time Sid or Geno or Staal missed the net with a shot, or hit the goalie in the chest and say, "did you see the Kings game tonight? Kopitar burried the Puck when he had his chances!"

Flower had a bad SERIES. Sorry kids, if you are that horrible, Canada does not waste a roster spot on you for the Olympics. You don't make it to back to back Cup finals if you are that bad, no matter how good your team may be. (look at Philly for an example)
You are also not mentioned at the beginning of the season as a Vezina favorite by every expert around either.....And yes, those guys get paid to do nothing but watch and study hockey.

If you take anything from any post I ever write....which I'm gonna bet most of the closed minded individuals here won't, keep this in mind. from about 89'-97', the Penguins had a team filled with hall of famers at every position, including goaltender. They had the Best player by far, and from 91' on had the 2 best players. They were coached by a hall of fame coach (until the players got sick of him), and they still only won 2 cups. All of that talent and knowledge, and only 2 cups....In a less competitive league as well. That just goes to show that the cup is damn hard to win, especially in the cap era. Just be happy that you root for a team that has a legitimate chance every year to win it. If they don't win it, don't whine like *****es and try to place blame on 1 or 2 people. Look forward to next season, and support the name on the front of the jersey, regardless of who's name is on the back.

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04-30-2012, 10:09 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
I absolutely do not want a defensive powerhouse. Look at the Caps right now, playing really good defensively and Ovechkin got 13 minutes tonight. It wont be long before he wants out of Washington at this rate.

I cant even imagine how ****** it would be to be a caps fan when they used to be unreal offensively and great to watch. Now theyve turned one of the best players in the game into a 4th liner who gets PP time and 65 points a year instead.

How boring.
This too

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04-30-2012, 10:19 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but sometimes i really wonder if the pens should be the team to pay letang a ton of money.

the guy is uber talented, but half the time he plays like an uber-retard out there. in that regard he almost reminds me of maf. with proper coaching he could be a multiple norris winner, but i doubt he gets that coaching here.

not necessarily advocating trading him or anything. just curious if a perennial contender should have a #1 d-man that is so bipolar, who doesn't have great hockey sense. what would the penguins look like with a less flashy but more steady d-man anchoring the blueline?

what would the pens look like with suter instead of letang back there? again, not advocating a trade, but just something to ponder.
the problem is with a guy like Letang, you need a solid stay at home guy to back him up, and we don't have 1 on the roster. It's also the problem with Martin and Orpik. Orpik to be effective has to play physical, and to play physical he has to be free to roam around and look for hits. so the problem compounds itself, too many roaming D not enough solid stay at home guys.

Thing is during the regular season these guys are talented enough to beat Mediocre teams put up good records and go to the playoffs.

The Weber Suter pairing in Nash is having the same problems this post season vs the Yotes.

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Old
04-30-2012, 10:21 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
there is a difference between bad and historically bad performances.

sid and malkin were "bad" (and i use that term loosely) relative to their lofty expectations, ie Conn Smythe winners.

fleury had one of the worst series by any goaltender in any era.

huge magnitudes of difference here.
Yes, no one is arguing that he was absolutely horrid after game 1..he wasn't that bad in game 1, and really was pretty strong in game 5 as well. games 2, 3, and 6, he was an absolute disgrace.

The point is, you don't trade him for because of a bad series, or because he doesn't play the puck as well as other goalies. Hell, you can argue that had the rest of the team played as well as he did in 08', the Pens would have won 2 cups in a row.

Look at all of the goalies that people for years people have wanted over Fleury....Luongo, what has he done beside choke in game 7 of the finals. Miller, hasn't ever came close to seeing a cup final. Halak, 2 great series and now can't be the clear cut #1 on his team. The list goes on and on. Goalies like Roy and Brodeur don't come around often.

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04-30-2012, 10:23 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Exile...still upset that I've proven to know more than you eh?
Yeah you really showed me with some real knowledgeable post. Did you have dinner with Bylsma tonight or did Constantine come over?

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04-30-2012, 10:23 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Seriously....quit being a Penguin fan and root for the Flyers! you have no clue. You look for every missed play by the goalie , or every soft goal and say the Penguins were just so awesome that they won with this with a garbage goalie. Hell I can look at every time Sid or Geno or Staal missed the net with a shot, or hit the goalie in the chest and say, "did you see the Kings game tonight? Kopitar burried the Puck when he had his chances!"

Flower had a bad SERIES. Sorry kids, if you are that horrible, Canada does not waste a roster spot on you for the Olympics. You don't make it to back to back Cup finals if you are that bad, no matter how good your team may be. (look at Philly for an example)
You are also not mentioned at the beginning of the season as a Vezina favorite by every expert around either.....And yes, those guys get paid to do nothing but watch and study hockey.

If you take anything from any post I ever write....which I'm gonna bet most of the closed minded individuals here won't, keep this in mind. from about 89'-97', the Penguins had a team filled with hall of famers at every position, including goaltender. They had the Best player by far, and from 91' on had the 2 best players. They were coached by a hall of fame coach (until the players got sick of him), and they still only won 2 cups. All of that talent and knowledge, and only 2 cups....In a less competitive league as well. That just goes to show that the cup is damn hard to win, especially in the cap era. Just be happy that you root for a team that has a legitimate chance every year to win it. If they don't win it, don't whine like *****es and try to place blame on 1 or 2 people. Look forward to next season, and support the name on the front of the jersey, regardless of who's name is on the back.
I am so happy to be allowed to root for the team that has two best players on the world and make play-offs every year and not getting swept in the first round heck plays six-seven games each year in the first round. Priceless, I am sure 66 and Burkle are also very happy just and they absolutely understand that this is the cap era, where you can only win one year and wait four or five years, as long as they employ the elite, clutch goalie, one can always hope..

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04-30-2012, 10:32 PM
  #160
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Fleury had a horrid series, and I`ll even say I`m worried about his confidence and even if he rips up next regular season, I`ll be nervous going into the playoffs for him, but...damn, some of you are absolutely ridiculous. You can tell some have just been begging for Fleury to falter so they can come in and scream `I told you so!` at the top of their lungs.

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04-30-2012, 10:34 PM
  #161
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I'm giving Fleury 1 more year. Assuming the D gets an improvement, Fleury will hopefully bounce back. I'm just tired of being out early every year (1st round twice or 2nd round once). Hope Shero fixes the D. But if he has another "worst ever" playoffs again, he's done here. If the D plays ****** and he has another ".830" or whatever, i dunno what to say at that point. But having 1 of those playoffs is bad enough in this era of hockey, although the D was equally as bad as Fleury.

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05-01-2012, 12:10 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
I absolutely do not want a defensive powerhouse. Look at the Caps right now, playing really good defensively and Ovechkin got 13 minutes tonight. It wont be long before he wants out of Washington at this rate.

I cant even imagine how ****** it would be to be a caps fan when they used to be unreal offensively and great to watch. Now theyve turned one of the best players in the game into a 4th liner who gets PP time and 65 points a year instead.

How boring.
Ovechkin turned himself into a 4th liner. Fat ass...

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05-01-2012, 02:47 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Seriously....quit being a Penguin fan and root for the Flyers! you have no clue. You look for every missed play by the goalie , or every soft goal and say the Penguins were just so awesome that they won with this with a garbage goalie. Hell I can look at every time Sid or Geno or Staal missed the net with a shot, or hit the goalie in the chest and say, "did you see the Kings game tonight? Kopitar burried the Puck when he had his chances!"

Flower had a bad SERIES. Sorry kids, if you are that horrible, Canada does not waste a roster spot on you for the Olympics. You don't make it to back to back Cup finals if you are that bad, no matter how good your team may be. (look at Philly for an example)
You are also not mentioned at the beginning of the season as a Vezina favorite by every expert around either.....And yes, those guys get paid to do nothing but watch and study hockey.

If you take anything from any post I ever write....which I'm gonna bet most of the closed minded individuals here won't, keep this in mind. from about 89'-97', the Penguins had a team filled with hall of famers at every position, including goaltender. They had the Best player by far, and from 91' on had the 2 best players. They were coached by a hall of fame coach (until the players got sick of him), and they still only won 2 cups. All of that talent and knowledge, and only 2 cups....In a less competitive league as well. That just goes to show that the cup is damn hard to win, especially in the cap era. Just be happy that you root for a team that has a legitimate chance every year to win it. If they don't win it, don't whine like *****es and try to place blame on 1 or 2 people. Look forward to next season, and support the name on the front of the jersey, regardless of who's name is on the back.

Oh yes, I criticize Fleury's past of FIVE years of terrible goaltending, statistically noted mind you, so I should go root for the Flyers. Yes, I'm closed minded.


Bottom line it doesn't take any special detective work to see the caliber of goalie Fleury is. His numbers back it up, and his on ice play backs it up. Constant terrible goals, constant terrible numbers. Forget about blaming the defense. You can blame them to a point, but there is no excuse for sub .900 numbers in this era of hockey, NONE.

I would bet anything at MINIMUM 3/4 of the starting goalies in the league would have won the cup with the Penguins in 09, and the 08 team was even more dominant.


How many more years do the Penguins have to deal with below .900 save percentage series performances? Until he's 30? Three more years?


Crosby, Malkin, and Staal, though they miss chances, though they play bad at times, ALWAYS produce.

Fleury ALWAYS lets in the fluke goal, always lets in the back breaking goal, and 95% of the time NEVER makes the big save He is the reason the Pens are out, ONCE again.

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Old
05-01-2012, 05:45 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by metalan2 View Post
Oh yes, I criticize Fleury's past of FIVE years of terrible goaltending, statistically noted mind you, so I should go root for the Flyers. Yes, I'm closed minded.


Bottom line it doesn't take any special detective work to see the caliber of goalie Fleury is. His numbers back it up, and his on ice play backs it up. Constant terrible goals, constant terrible numbers. Forget about blaming the defense. You can blame them to a point, but there is no excuse for sub .900 numbers in this era of hockey, NONE.

I would bet anything at MINIMUM 3/4 of the starting goalies in the league would have won the cup with the Penguins in 09, and the 08 team was even more dominant.


How many more years do the Penguins have to deal with below .900 save percentage series performances? Until he's 30? Three more years?


Crosby, Malkin, and Staal, though they miss chances, though they play bad at times, ALWAYS produce.

Fleury ALWAYS lets in the fluke goal, always lets in the back breaking goal, and 95% of the time NEVER makes the big save He is the reason the Pens are out, ONCE again.
This post is so hilariously biased i don't even know where to start. Fleury was inconsistent two years ago, and was downright bad in the postseason against Ottawa and Montreal. He was bad in 4 out of the 6 games this year against the Flyers. At no point during the rest of that period of time was he even so much as average. He was good in small stretches, and downright unbelieveable most of the time.

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05-01-2012, 06:18 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
I absolutely do not want a defensive powerhouse. Look at the Caps right now, playing really good defensively and Ovechkin got 13 minutes tonight. It wont be long before he wants out of Washington at this rate.

I cant even imagine how ****** it would be to be a caps fan when they used to be unreal offensively and great to watch. Now theyve turned one of the best players in the game into a 4th liner who gets PP time and 65 points a year instead.

How boring.
The difference is that Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Jordan Staal would be the best defensive forwards in a defense first system.

Also, which teams are still playing? Mostly the defensive powerhouses.

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05-01-2012, 06:42 AM
  #166
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The difference is that Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Jordan Staal would be the best defensive forwards in a defense first system.

Also, which teams are still playing? Mostly the defensive powerhouses.
Crosby and Staal, yes. Malkin and defense in the same sentence, you are joking, right?

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05-01-2012, 06:46 AM
  #167
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Crosby and Staal, yes. Malkin and defense in the same sentence, you are joking, right?
By no means is Malkin a floater. He is very underrated in terms of defense, he is nowhere close to a liability. He can handle himself defensively quite well. Lead the league in takeaways some years back.

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05-01-2012, 06:52 AM
  #168
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The only Malkin's problem is, he's lazy when he's ending his shift. He's flying when he starts the shift, after 40 seconds he starts to be lazy, no legs movement.

I am not sure if he's tired or just doesn't care about skating back to the bench ASAP for quickest change.

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05-01-2012, 06:53 AM
  #169
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Crosby and Staal, yes. Malkin and defense in the same sentence, you are joking, right?
when he is not trying to do the imposable with the puck, he's very good...

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05-01-2012, 07:29 AM
  #170
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The difference is that Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Jordan Staal would be the best defensive forwards in a defense first system.

Also, which teams are still playing? Mostly the defensive powerhouses.
Yeah you're right, and that's a problem the league has right now unfortunately. Who made it to the second round that has top end players? The Flyers and the Caps, that's it and the Caps are playing wildly different than they usually do. That's a problem. It's signalling that a team is better off being built to blunt the other team's offenses rather than having them themselves. Not good. Maybe it's just a flukey year, but when AO is hardly playing so his team doesn't have to worry about his deficiences defensively, as laughable as that is I worry about the league all the same.

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05-01-2012, 08:18 AM
  #171
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Yeah you're right, and that's a problem the league has right now unfortunately. Who made it to the second round that has top end players? The Flyers and the Caps, that's it and the Caps are playing wildly different than they usually do. That's a problem. It's signalling that a team is better off being built to blunt the other team's offenses rather than having them themselves. Not good. Maybe it's just a flukey year, but when AO is hardly playing so his team doesn't have to worry about his deficiences defensively, as laughable as that is I worry about the league all the same.
It has to do with the fact that the NHL looks like its back to the garage league. Seriously, this hockey is pre-lockout variety. They need to re-examine the leagues focus.

I'll watch regardless, but seeing players tackle one another on the ice is a drastic step backward.

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05-01-2012, 08:36 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
I absolutely do not want a defensive powerhouse. Look at the Caps right now, playing really good defensively and Ovechkin got 13 minutes tonight. It wont be long before he wants out of Washington at this rate.
What the hell are you even talking about? How does this relate to the Pens becoming a defensive powerhouse at all?

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05-01-2012, 09:14 AM
  #173
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Yeah you're right, and that's a problem the league has right now unfortunately. Who made it to the second round that has top end players? The Flyers and the Caps, that's it and the Caps are playing wildly different than they usually do. That's a problem. It's signalling that a team is better off being built to blunt the other team's offenses rather than having them themselves. Not good. Maybe it's just a flukey year, but when AO is hardly playing so his team doesn't have to worry about his deficiences defensively, as laughable as that is I worry about the league all the same.
Quick, Kopitar, Doughty, Weber, Suter, Pietrangelo, Rinne, Radulov, Yandle, Gaborik, Lundqvist, Richards, Girardi, etc. These are top end players in this league. They might not be Crosby, Stamkos, Malkin, or Giroux but do you think it would be any less of a problem for the league if you needed a superstar like that to compete?

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Crosby and Staal, yes. Malkin and defense in the same sentence, you are joking, right?
There is no doubt in my mind that Malkin could be a top defensive player in the league. He was very good at defense before. He has actually regressed in that regard. When he is determined to get the puck he is the best backchecker on the team.


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05-01-2012, 09:57 AM
  #174
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Yup. And he's been to the Finals twice. For anyone on here to say that we can't win a Cup with Fleury well, that's already been proven wrong so I don't know what to do for you. And it's not like we had crazy awesome D in 2008 or 2009. They played well but it wasn't our strong suit, in fact it was our weakest area. If anything, Fleury's proven that he needs adequate D to win games. And that's what a good goaltender gets you but with our D playing the way it was, no goalie in the world was going to win us that series. Not even the mighty Mike Smith who is God to everyone here all the sudden.
I'm sorry, but that's a horse **** argument.

I guess it's a chicken or egg type deal, where bad defense leads to bad goaltending or vice versa (and the side you take depends on whether or not you're a Fleury fan) Regardless, here's something to chew on:

He's chronically allowed first shot goals in the playoffs for a while now.

He was THE only reason we lost to Montreal 2 years ago. Sid and Geno didn't have great series, but as we've seen, the playoffs have once again become a war of attrition since the clutching and grabbing has slowly been allowed back in. We just needed ONE ****ing save from him in several of those losses, and we never got them. Add to that the fact that he also let in HORRIBLE goals, including goals from the icing line from Pyatt in game 4 and Gionta in game 7, that's all the Habs needed.

The argument his backers use when refuting his average stats are the conveniently un-provable "He's clutch" argument. Well no, he's not, and this series against Philly proved it again. Hell, Bryzgalov made bigger saves when called upon at critical moments, including the ones off Letang AND Sullivan in game 2 when he stopped sure goals. Oh, and I don't give a **** what happened up until Jagr's goal in game two, but we could have potentially had at least an overtime, but he decided to kick out a 5mph shot right to Jagr, who somehow managed to score on a fadeaway jumper along the ice. So much for clutch.

When your goalie falters, it makes everyone else look terrible. Look how bad Nashville's looked now that Rinne actually looks human. Suddenly Trotz's team defensive game doesn't look so solid, does it?

As for Smith? Who cares what happened to this guy before these last two months. The guy has been absolutely stellar and has allowed Phoenix to play rope-a-dope the entire playoff. It can't last, but it's sure nice to watch a team that absolutely believes in their goalie, unlike a team that only claims it does.

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05-01-2012, 10:19 AM
  #175
Shwag33
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Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
You said it well -Series! Malkin and Sid also had a bad series....I guess we should trade them too because the best players in the league would not have such a bad series.


So what you're saying is Malkin and Crosby who were over a PPG had the worst series in the history of the NHL as forwards.


Nice comparison.

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