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Luongo To Toronto? Part II

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Old
04-26-2012, 08:17 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
Nick Kypreos ‏ @RealKyper Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
#SNPlayoffs #Canucks Luongo asks for trade. Van didn't even need to ask him to waive NTC. He tells them himself in exit meeting he wants out
Wow, that was quick as hell. Didn't quite expect that.

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04-26-2012, 08:17 AM
  #177
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Forget his long term contract. Say the Leafs do sign him. He seems like a quality guy who would (hopefully) accept a trade down the road if no longer wanted? Keep him for the 5 years, see what happens after that. Good goalie.

I say do it.

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04-26-2012, 08:22 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Dio666 View Post
Forget his long term contract. Say the Leafs do sign him. He seems like a quality guy who would (hopefully) accept a trade down the road if no longer wanted? Keep him for the 5 years, see what happens after that. Good goalie.

I say do it.
After a player gets traded the NTC becomes null and void. I don't think the new team (hypothetically Toronto) needs to honour it.

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Old
04-26-2012, 08:23 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by caribouPINE View Post
2 year contract vs. 10 years.

Is it really THAT hard to figure out? wow.

Mikka Kiprusoff.

- 35 years old
- Signed for 2 more years at $5.8M
- Has played at least 70 games in last 7 seasons so the guys a workhorse
- Posted a .921 SV% last year so he's not slowing down
- Used to seeing a lot of shots and playing on "bad" teams
- He's shown he can be a winner, lots of experience, used to pressure in a CDN market and he's well liked by fans and teammates


The nice part is, you don’t marry the guy. He will for sure be very good for the next 2 years… that gives Reimer or Scrivens 2 years of a great mentor, and 2 years to learn and be groomed as possibily the starter. It's a perfect fit. Worst case, if in 2 years Scrivens/Reimer arent the answer then you can still re-sign Mikka to a 1 or 2 year deal… at 37 that’s not unreasonable (Nabokov is doing it right now for example).

Rumour has the Flames starting their rebuild and he could be avail… the problem is what they would want in return.
No, but the point still stands.

Kiprusoff is three years older than Luongo, and in the immediate future, is more of a burden on the cap. Three years may not be as important if we're talking about 24 and 27 year olds, but for guys in their mid 30s, it's important. By the start of next season, Kipprusoff will be 36 years old.

As far as the cap goes, we are right up against the ceiling as it is, and bringing in Kipper would make it awfully difficult to improve the team going forward.

Add to that the fact that you're only bringing him here to be a temporary piece, and I would rather see Luongo come here. At least you've got more time to work with there. While I would prefer a goaltender that hasn't broken the 30 year old mark, Luongo would give us a few more years of stability in the strong likelihood that none of the goaltenders currently in the system pans out.

I don't think band-aid solutions should be an option for this team. A 36 year old goaltender is one, no matter how you slice it. If Calgary were to move him, he wouldn't be cheap either. He hasn't asked for a trade like Luongo has, and he doesn't have a NMC restricting where he can be moved (his NMC expired at season's end).

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04-26-2012, 08:26 AM
  #180
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Kiprusoff is still one of the top 10 goalies in the NHL and has been one of the top 5 active goaltenders in the NHL over the last 8 years or so. Having him until the age of 38 is NOT the same as marrying Roberto Luongo until 2022.

I'd take Kiprusoff, easily.

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04-26-2012, 08:26 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dio666 View Post
Forget his long term contract. Say the Leafs do sign him. He seems like a quality guy who would (hopefully) accept a trade down the road if no longer wanted? Keep him for the 5 years, see what happens after that. Good goalie.

I say do it.
Yep, it's his contract that in part makes him affordable. Double edged sword, the gamble here and I trust Nonis will be hard lobbying for him is will he still play at a high level at age 38 where he is still a 6M goalie. The years on the end of his contract are meaningless to me but may be an issue for Burke.

BTW Luongo just turned 33 in April.

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04-26-2012, 08:29 AM
  #182
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kipper should cost the leafs part of their future, luongo should not cost the leafs any of their future..thats my opinion as to why luongo is more attractive

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04-26-2012, 08:30 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by caribouPINE View Post
2 year contract vs. 10 years.

Is it really THAT hard to figure out? wow.

Mikka Kiprusoff.

- 35 years old
- Signed for 2 more years at $5.8M
- Has played at least 70 games in last 7 seasons so the guys a workhorse
- Posted a .921 SV% last year so he's not slowing down
- Used to seeing a lot of shots and playing on "bad" teams
- He's shown he can be a winner, lots of experience, used to pressure in a CDN market and he's well liked by fans and teammates


The nice part is, you don’t marry the guy. He will for sure be very good for the next 2 years… that gives Reimer or Scrivens 2 years of a great mentor, and 2 years to learn and be groomed as possibily the starter. It's a perfect fit. Worst case, if in 2 years Scrivens/Reimer/Owuya arent the answer then you can still re-sign Mikka to a 1 or 2 year deal… at 37 that’s not unreasonable (Nabokov is doing it right now for example).

Rumour has the Flames starting their rebuild and he could be avail… the problem is what they would want in return.




You've answered your own question here.

The real decision is: empty the cupboards for a high ticket stopgap who may burn out by the time you're ready to compete;

or: anchor that position over the next 6 -7 seasons (Lou is retired by this point) without overspending (he comes cheaper than any elite G ever will again) and address other needs such as being better defensively and tougher to play against, adding a power forward, etc.

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04-26-2012, 08:34 AM
  #184
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In the bidding for Luongo of the teams that are on his list, obviously Canucks have 2 needs, a #3C and a top 4 pairing Defenceman.

Leafs have both on their roster, Grabo and Gunnar or Liles.

What else is on the Canucks roster that would interest us?

If it's Luongo for Grabo and Gunnar. How about the #26th pick for Tom Wilson in this year's draft...There are some fits here. It's starting to smoke...

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04-26-2012, 08:34 AM
  #185
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We need to go after Luongo. We have not had an elite goalie since Belfour and Joseph both came over in their 30's Belfour 37 and Cujo 31.

I don't care about the 10 year deal cause Luongo won't play until he is 43 and once retired the money comes off the cap. I don't see him sticking around at 40 for a million dollars. He will have made more than enough to retire.

We have had some luck with other goalies leading us to playoff games and Lou would be no different. You don't think this whole Schneider thing has him motivated to come out and play well to show VCR they made a mistake not only that he is playing for the #1 job in Sochi if pros go to the Olympics.


Lots of people are well what happens if he sucks at 37 or 38 well then hopefully by then we had 4 playoff series and have developed a minor league goalie to come in. We can always buy him out at that point.


I like Reimer and he would be a great backup he has that mentality that he just wants the team to do well so he has the perfect backup stuff. I don't think he will every become a true #1 but will be a solid #2 who can play 30 games a year if needed.

I hope Burke doesn't cheap out on an offer but tries and make a legit hockey deal where both teams can be happy walking away.

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04-26-2012, 08:38 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by DoubleTrouble View Post
I'm Not sure which goalie the Canucks will trade at this time but either of them will not go cheap, I figure a first rounder this year and another top player off your team.

Gillis and Burke do not see eye to eye so If Burke want one of Vancouver goalie he will have to pay or look else where.


Gillis is so over a barrel here. No one is giving up a first OR top prospect, never mind BOTH. Book it, and then come and see me after the trade goes down.

There is going to be a list of five teams, right? Let's say two don't want the contract, two offer a third and a middling prospect and the other offers a second, middling prospect and a cap dump. What is Gillis going to do?

He is going to take the best deal, or have a 9 or $10 million goalie platoon next year.

Like I said in the main board yesterday (and to which a few logical Van fans seemed to agree with), I proposed a second, Carter Ashton and one of Armstrong/Lombardi. That is exactly the type of deal it will be, IMO, from any team. The best return the Canucks can hope for is cap space.

All these other scenarios are far-fetched, such as a high first (#5 oveall ) or a top prospect. Gillis is over a barrel: he takes the best offer from one of those five teams, trades Schneider or ties up millions and keeps both.

Stop treating this like a value-for-value straight up hockey trade. It is anything but.

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04-26-2012, 08:42 AM
  #187
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Gunnarsson?
Grabovski?
Phanuef?
5th Overall?

What are people smoking?

Luongo's return = very slightly more than Brian Campbell's return.

It's more like Armstrong + Mueller. No seriously valuable entity will be exchanged for Luongo's contract. The only real asset Vancouver recovers will be cap space.

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04-26-2012, 08:42 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribouPINE View Post
2 year contract vs. 10 years.

Is it really THAT hard to figure out? wow.

Mikka Kiprusoff.

- 35 years old
- Signed for 2 more years at $5.8M
- Has played at least 70 games in last 7 seasons so the guys a workhorse
- Posted a .921 SV% last year so he's not slowing down
- Used to seeing a lot of shots and playing on "bad" teams
- He's shown he can be a winner, lots of experience, used to pressure in a CDN market and he's well liked by fans and teammates


The nice part is, you don’t marry the guy. He will for sure be very good for the next 2 years… that gives Reimer or Scrivens 2 years of a great mentor, and 2 years to learn and be groomed as possibily the starter. It's a perfect fit. Worst case, if in 2 years Scrivens/Reimer/Owuya arent the answer then you can still re-sign Mikka to a 1 or 2 year deal… at 37 that’s not unreasonable (Nabokov is doing it right now for example).

Rumour has the Flames starting their rebuild and he could be avail… the problem is what they would want in return.
Rumour/innuendo is Sutter walked away because he wanted to rebuild and the Flames told him they want to make the playoffs.

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Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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04-26-2012, 08:43 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Boucher View Post
Gunnarsson?
Grabovski?
Phanuef?
5th Overall?

What are people smoking?

Luongo's return = very slightly more than Brian Campbell's return.

It's more like Armstrong + Mueller. No seriously valuable entity will be exchanged for Luongo's contract. The only real asset Vancouver recovers will be cap space.
Burke is not going to trade Phaneuf nor is Gillis going to trade Kessler. This is a Non starter.

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04-26-2012, 08:43 AM
  #190
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Let's just say for entertainment purposes that we actually want Luongo to come here. Makes sense right? We need a goalie and Lou is waiving his No Trade. From what you've seen from Burke so far, why do you think that this will happen?

Did Kovi, Nash, or Richards happen? We needed them too when they were available right? So what makes you think that this will happen?

Also if Burke believes that Reimer is the future then why would he want Luongo here until 2023?

I just don't think this will happen. What makes sense to you doesn't always work out.

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04-26-2012, 08:43 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by StuckOutHere View Post
After a player gets traded the NTC becomes null and void. I don't think the new team (hypothetically Toronto) needs to honour it.
incorrect

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04-26-2012, 08:44 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
In the bidding for Luongo of the teams that are on his list, obviously Canucks have 2 needs, a #3C and a top 4 pairing Defenceman.

Leafs have both on their roster, Grabo and Gunnar or Liles.

What else is on the Canucks roster that would interest us?

If it's Luongo for Grabo and Gunnar. How about the #26th pick for Tom Wilson in this year's draft...There are some fits here. It's starting to smoke...

Grabovski is our best centre, and with such a weak UFA class, unless Burke addresses that problem, there is no way you see Grabo in a deal for Lou. I can't see Burke going there either way to be honest And Gillis is too smart to bring in a 5 million dollar 3C anyway....Bozak or Connolly is more likely.

Its a buyer's market here, and it was announced today that Toronto is in fact on the list of teams Lou will accept a trade to. Gillis will obviously prefer to get a deal done in the East and move Lou out of the conference. Its down to TOR and TBL. Of the two, we can offer a better package including an inexpensive 1B/backup in Reimer.

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04-26-2012, 08:47 AM
  #193
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Just the fact that Luongo asked for a trade dropped his return significantly. He basically gave Gillis the finger and the teams on his list know it. They will just have to beat each other out on the offer...which will start out very, very low.

Not a very good situation for Gillis right now...but it's Vancouver so who the ***** cares.

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04-26-2012, 08:48 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Leafs12232 View Post
incorrect
This is from the CBA FAQ on here.

4 No Movement Clause / No Trade Clause [NMC/NTC]
What is the difference between a No Movement Clause [NMC] and a No Trade Clause [NTC]? [CBA Section 11.8]
-- In addition to no-Trade [NTC] restrictions, an NMC can also prevent the involuntary relocation of a player by Waiver or Loans.
Which players are eligible to have NTC/NMC's in their contracts? [CBA Section 11.8]
-- Any player who is a Group 3 Unrestricted Free Agent [most common form of UFA] can negotiate a contract with an NTC/NMC.
-- RFA's and other non-Group 3 UFA's can negotiate NTC/NMC's in contracts, however those clauses cannot take effect until the player's experience would qualify them as a Group 3 UFA.
If a player that has a NTC/NMC waives it and gets traded, does he retain his NTC/NMC after the trade? [CBA Section 11.8]
-- Yes, the NTC/NMC remains in effect. The only way it is gone forever is if (A) the player has a NTC that has not vested [it has yet to come into effect when the player was traded], and (B) the acquiring team refuses to be bound by it [the team must make this decision at the time of the trade].
Can a player with a NMC be Bought Out? [CBA Section 11.8(b)]
-- Yes. The CBA grants the player an option to choose whether or not to be placed on waivers prior to the Buy-Out finalizing. Example: Darcy Tucker in 2008.

I was perhaps only half right as the acquiring team appears to have a choice but I don't know why any team would be down.

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04-26-2012, 08:49 AM
  #195
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Wouldn't a reasonable move be Lecavalier for Luongo?

Two retirement contracts, just one makes a fair chunk more.

Maybe the Canucks get to move another contract with Luongo to help balance the cap?

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04-26-2012, 08:49 AM
  #196
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I hope to hell our first rounder in this year's draft won't be in play if he does wind up in TO. Given his albatross of a contract, there should be some salary going back the other way.

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04-26-2012, 08:50 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Let's just say for entertainment purposes that we actually want Luongo to come here. Makes sense right? We need a goalie and Lou is waiving his No Trade. From what you've seen from Burke so far, why do you think that this will happen?

Did Kovi, Nash, or Richards happen? We needed them too when they were available right? So what makes you think that this will happen?

Also if Burke believes that Reimer is the future then why would he want Luongo here until 2023?

I just don't think this will happen. What makes sense to you doesn't always work out.




Burke no longer has the luxury of time, and he must find a way to improve GAA and close out some of those one goal games. Playoffs are a MUST this season. Lou does that for him. And he does it CHEAPLY, affording Burke opportunity to expend resources elsewhere such as a star forward.


Lou means world class goaltending, a far greater chance of finishing in the top 8, and it means we retain assets to use in other areas.


Time to use our buying power...

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04-26-2012, 08:50 AM
  #198
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Grabovski is our best centre, and with such a weak UFA class, unless Burke addresses that problem, there is no way you see Grabo in a deal for Lou. I can't see Burke going there either way to be honest And Gillis is too smart to bring in a 5 million dollar 3C anyway....Bozak or Connolly is more likely.

Its a buyer's market here, and it was announced today that Toronto is in fact on the list of teams Lou will accept a trade to. Gillis will obviously prefer to get a deal done in the East and move Lou out of the conference. Its down to TOR and TBL. Of the two, we can offer a better package including an inexpensive 1B/backup in Reimer.
Overrating Grabo on our board really fustrates me, I understand Leafs fans like him, his compete level and courage. It's hard to let go...But let's be sure here, he is a #3 C on a contender. Only reason he is a #2C is we have young prospects at C in the minors.

We are possibly trading a #3C that in 13-14 be down in the depth chart. We lost a tonne of games last year due to mediocre goaltending, this is our most glaring need. Not retaining a #3C at 5.5M per.

If Philly never traded Richards and Carter last summer and allowed Giroux to flourish, no telling where Giroux would be today?

Time to take this lead and see what we have in our kids, one thing is certain. 4 years of Grabo has not led this team to the playoffs.

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04-26-2012, 08:51 AM
  #199
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I hope to hell our first rounder in this year's draft won't be in play if he does wind up in TO. Given his albatross of a contract, there should be some salary going back the other way.
No chance...Buyer's market here...we can likely unload an albatross of our own.

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04-26-2012, 08:56 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Overrating Grabo on our board really fustrates me, I understand Leafs fans like him, his compete level and courage. It's hard to let go...But let's be sure here, he is a #3 C on a contender. Only reason he is a #2C is we have young prospects at C in the minors.

We are possibly trading a #3C that in 13-14 be down in the depth chart. We lost a tonne of games last year due to mediocre goaltending, this is our most glaring need. Not retaining a #3C at 5.5M per.

If Philly never traded Richards and Carter last summer and allowed Giroux to flourish, no telling where Giroux would be today?

Time to take this lead and see what we have in our kids, one thing is certain. 4 years of Grabo has not led this team to the playoffs.



You go ahead and tell us which GM not playing EA SPorts will spend 25 million over the next 5 for a 3C.

And with ZERO options to replace Grabo, Burke's not going there, not for an albatross contract. Its not a sellers market, and Grabo is nowhere near the top of the list in terms of guys Burke needs to move.

Philly traded Richards and Carter BECAUSE they had Giroux, JVR, and Wayne Simmonds and Brayden Schenn and Couturier coming back. Who is our Giroux??? JVR?? Couturier??


That hole up the middle and all across the top 6 was already addressed prior to moving those guys. Poor example.

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