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Luongo To Toronto? Part II

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04-26-2012, 09:01 AM
  #201
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Rose: we get a solid #1 goalie
Thorn: does not come up big in important games, crazy contract and he puts more oil in his hair than Alberta produces each year

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04-26-2012, 09:03 AM
  #202
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I think TB is the better fit and could put a better package together then the leafs

having said that, a trade for Luongo from the leafs perspective

Luongo (5.3) and Raymond (2.5) for Lombardi, Reimer, rights to Franson + conditional pick (4th if Franson doesn't sign)

Not sure I'd do much more than that, or really that at all

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04-26-2012, 09:03 AM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durkin67 View Post
You go ahead and tell us which GM not playing EA SPorts will spend 25 million over the next 5 for a 3C.

And with ZERO options to replace Grabo, Burke's not going there, not for an albatross contract. Its not a sellers market, and Grabo is nowhere near the top of the list in terms of guys Burke needs to move.

Philly traded Richards and Carter BECAUSE they had Giroux, JVR, and Wayne Simmonds and Brayden Schenn and Couturier coming back. Who is our Giroux??? JVR?? Couturier??


That hole up the middle and all across the top 6 was already addressed prior to moving those guys. Poor example.
All things being equal, are you saying you wouldn't trade Grabo for a possible #1G that most still regard as a possible franchise Goalie?

If so I can't believe anyone would say or believe this.

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04-26-2012, 09:04 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by The Legend View Post
What in the world is qualitative depth?


I would love to address any of the concerns about Luongo, because it's amazing how overblow some things get. Can someone please tell me how he folds under pressure?
Seriously?

Nashville, Detroit, LA,Philadelphia for example have greater depth, in the quality of their top 9 than Toronto does...Nashville's top 4 is certainly better than Toronto's, as is Chicago...I'm simply saying that while getting a bona fide goalie (for the right price) is a sound goal, it's not going to change the need for improved depth everywhere else, which is what really defines a contending team.

And finding the answers within the organization is something a number of teams have done, including Chicago (Niemi) including Philadelphia in the same Final (Leighton) and Boston (Thomas) and now in other clubs pushing through like Washington (Holtby) Nashville, etc...even Florida demonstrates the point that perhaps the focus paid to goaltending is extreme at time, while exemplifying what increased overall depth can do.

And if Luongo requires expense from our Top 6, our Top 4 or our 1st round picks in this Draft or the next, I don't think the results bear out in an real measured difference compared to the hole moving those assets would leave given the upcoming market.

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04-26-2012, 09:04 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
All things being equal, are you saying you wouldn't trade Grabo for a possible #1G that most still regard as a possible franchise Goalie?

If so I can't believe anyone would say or believe this.


Im saying we don't have to.

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04-26-2012, 09:05 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by pspot View Post
I think TB is the better fit and could put a better package together then the leafs

having said that, a trade for Luongo from the leafs perspective

Luongo (5.3) and Raymond (2.5) for Lombardi, Reimer, rights to Franson + conditional pick (4th if Franson doesn't sign)

Not sure I'd do much more than that, or really that at all
I wouldn't want to give up on Franson.

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04-26-2012, 09:06 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Durkin67 View Post
Im saying we don't have to.
Why not? Are you willing to go into next season with Reimer? Burke isn't. He said this already and if he did and the same problems occurred next season, he would squarely be on the chopping block. Don't think he would be this unintelligent to allow this to happen.

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04-26-2012, 09:12 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Wouldn't a reasonable move be Lecavalier for Luongo?

Two retirement contracts, just one makes a fair chunk more.

Maybe the Canucks get to move another contract with Luongo to help balance the cap?
heard Vancouver fans saying that Leclavier would be their 3rd line center, why would they have money tied down on centers, when they can improve their wingers for Kessel.
The Canucks are really just Sedins, Kesler, and Burrows upfront. It's just that the Sedins are crazy good to cover their offence.

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04-26-2012, 09:14 AM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Why not? Are you willing to go into next season with Reimer? Burke isn't. He said this already and if he did and the same problems occurred next season, he would squarely be on the chopping block. Don't think he would be this unintelligent to allow this to happen.
He's saying we don't have to trade Grabbo for any reason, so it isn't a concern.

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Old
04-26-2012, 09:15 AM
  #210
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Oh and Grabs is a 2nd line center. Depends on the makeup of your team. Don't know why everyone thinks he a 3rd line center.

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04-26-2012, 09:16 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
I wouldn't want to give up on Franson.
i don't either but I think he's the odd man out

Leafs have no cap room and already have 6 NHL dmen signed for next year, not counting resigning Franson. Then you've supposedly got Holzer ready already too

Obviously Komisarek should be the one to go but I Just don't see that and Franson might have some decent value if signed and moved.

I think Malone, Garon, and pick or prospect for Luongo is probably what will go down, maybe Det 1st

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04-26-2012, 09:17 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Why not? Are you willing to go into next season with Reimer? Burke isn't. He said this already and if he did and the same problems occurred next season, he would squarely be on the chopping block. Don't think he would be this unintelligent to allow this to happen.


This is a BUYER'S MARKET. Gillis is touching his toes on this one. He needs to lock up Schneider. He's stuck with Luongo's 6.7 million dollar a year salary, and 5.3 M cap hit. This is almost the hockey equivalent to having to foreclose on a property. You don't get to name your price; you accept that you need to walk away from an asset and move on.

Burke will not be required to surrender his top centre for a goalie the other team is under the gun to get rid of. He can get Luongo for much, much less.


You're looking at it backwards. All things being equal, Grabo for Lou is a fair trade. But things are NOT 'equal'. Not even close.

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04-26-2012, 09:19 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
He's saying we don't have to trade Grabbo for any reason, so it isn't a concern.
Or it's the same thing some leafs fans have a hard time grasping, you don't get quality without giving back quality.

Hey I am no big fan of Luongo or his contract, but he's available at a discount price. The goaltending since the departure of Belfour for this organization has been mediocre at best and this is being charitable.

Here's the chance to pick up a #1G, one that was good enought to make team canada in 2010. 2 short years ago. Now unless Gillis is desperate enough to take Komi and Lombardi for Luongo, which would never happen. We have to give something back.

Our prospects or picks or Grabo?

Easy choice to most.

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04-26-2012, 09:21 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Durkin67 View Post
This is a BUYER'S MARKET. Gillis is touching his toes on this one. He needs to lock up Schneider. He's stuck with Luongo's 6.7 million dollar a year salary, and 5.3 M cap hit. This is almost the hockey equivalent to having to foreclose on a property. You don't get to name your price; you accept that you need to walk away from an asset and move on.

Burke will not be required to surrender his top centre for a goalie the other team is under the gun to get rid of. He can get Luongo for much, much less.


You're looking at it backwards. All things being equal, Grabo for Lou is a fair trade. But things are NOT 'equal'. Not even close.
This is where we differ, you are overrating Grabo, he is not a top center. Where would he rank on a listof Centers in the NHL? Top 20? Top 30? Is this the new definition of a top Center?

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04-26-2012, 09:21 AM
  #215
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Only way a Loungo trade goes down is if Komi goes the other way. Burke can not take on another big cap hit without releasing one and Komi is the hardest to dispose of. With Komi gone, that would pay for Loungo for the next two years.

Loungo would be a great choice only if another shorter term choice can not be had. He satisfies a need right now but he is not a temporary fill. We only need a goalie for the next 2-3 years and with Loungo's contract it will expand way to far beyond that. Now if Loungo is fine in a couple years to reverse roles and be the backup. That would make it easier to swallow. It is a huge hit for a backup but as someone said before as the cap rises his hit decreases.

Besides filling the goaltending hole, he also brings leadership, experience and character to a team severly lacking all of it. Schneider seems to have a lot of respect for Luongo so I can see him being a positive influence on Reimer or Scrivens..

Also thinking about it, we are all suggesting we only need a goalie for the next 2 years based on reimer succeeding. There is no guarantee that Reimer will ever regain his first year play. If this was the case then at least we would have Luongo to continue playing while Scrivens or another goalie is developed.

It is a tough call and I am very torn. For the short term I'd love to see Luongo here but am worried about the long-term impact. Especially without knowing what is goingt o happen with the next CBA

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04-26-2012, 09:23 AM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pspot View Post
I think TB is the better fit and could put a better package together then the leafs

having said that, a trade for Luongo from the leafs perspective

Luongo (5.3) and Raymond (2.5) for Lombardi, Reimer, rights to Franson + conditional pick (4th if Franson doesn't sign)

Not sure I'd do much more than that, or really that at all
Way, way too much. Vancouver is not going to get anywhere near that for Luongo. He's close to untradable with that contract. It would take a lot less than the Phaneuf deal to pull this off. IN fact Vancouver would need to take a bad contract or two going the other way.

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04-26-2012, 09:23 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Or it's the same thing some leafs fans have a hard time grasping, you don't get quality without giving back quality.

Hey I am no big fan of Luongo or his contract, but he's available at a discount price. The goaltending since the departure of Belfour for this organization has been mediocre at best and this is being charitable.

Here's the chance to pick up a #1G, one that was good enought to make team canada in 2010. 2 short years ago. Now unless Gillis is desperate enough to take Komi and Lombardi for Luongo, which would never happen. We have to give something back.

Our prospects or picks or Grabo?

Easy choice to most.

Grabo is not a 'discount price'. And in a year where Burke MUST make the playoffs, you don't dig one hole to fill another. And Gillis doesn't want a 25 million dollar guy clogging up the bottom 6. This is m^not a deal that makes sense for either team.

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04-26-2012, 09:24 AM
  #218
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They won't even want Grabo anyways, thats too much money up the middle.

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04-26-2012, 09:25 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Or it's the same thing some leafs fans have a hard time grasping, you don't get quality without giving back quality.

Hey I am no big fan of Luongo or his contract, but he's available at a discount price. The goaltending since the departure of Belfour for this organization has been mediocre at best and this is being charitable.

Here's the chance to pick up a #1G, one that was good enought to make team canada in 2010. 2 short years ago. Now unless Gillis is desperate enough to take Komi and Lombardi for Luongo, which would never happen. We have to give something back.

Our prospects or picks or Grabo?

Easy choice to most.
Burke will not give up Grabo in the deal.

Mac/Bozak + Gunnie + Komi + 2nd 2013

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04-26-2012, 09:27 AM
  #220
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Way, way too much. Vancouver is not going to get anywhere near that for Luongo. He's close to untradable with that contract. It would take a lot less than the Phaneuf deal to pull this off. IN fact Vancouver would need to take a bad contract or two going the other way.
reimer and lombardi have little to no value
the main piece is the rights to an average RFA

Raymond is a serviceable player too

I'm predicting Malone, Garon and Det 1st, the package i suggested from the leafs is probably worse but close

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04-26-2012, 09:28 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Durkin67 View Post
Grabo is not a 'discount price'. And in a year where Burke MUST make the playoffs, you don't dig one hole to fill another. And Gillis doesn't want a 25 million dollar guy clogging up the bottom 6. This is m^not a deal that makes sense for either team.
Again we firmly disagree on what Grabo is worth to the Leafs, I said this before when The Grabo line was playing their best hockey of last season, the Leafs were 29th in the NHL.

This year when Grabo was nowhere to be found in the beginning of the season the Leafs were 1st and near the top of the league.

The Leafs success depend on Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf far more than Grabo.

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04-26-2012, 09:30 AM
  #222
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Or it's the same thing some leafs fans have a hard time grasping, you don't get quality without giving back quality.

Hey I am no big fan of Luongo or his contract, but he's available at a discount price. The goaltending since the departure of Belfour for this organization has been mediocre at best and this is being charitable.

Here's the chance to pick up a #1G, one that was good enought to make team canada in 2010. 2 short years ago. Now unless Gillis is desperate enough to take Komi and Lombardi for Luongo, which would never happen. We have to give something back.

Our prospects or picks or Grabo?


Easy choice to most.
Dealing from that model undermines the strength Burke has cobbled together, and for a team in need of greater quality at every position plus a very competitive UFA market, and the fact he testified against a similar contract to Luongo's, screams that if Burke did pursue Luongo, it's not going to be at the expense of solid pieces.

Whether Gillis interprets the landscape as a buyer's market, I don't know, but that's exactly what it should be and if it isn't in Vancouver, then at half the cost and at that, a "free wallet" there's always Vokoun, or to lesser extent, Harding, who could very well be, Mike Smith 2.0 and again, void of all the other entanglements that would compromise the club on whole.

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04-26-2012, 09:31 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
This is where we differ, you are overrating Grabo, he is not a top center. Where would he rank on a listof Centers in the NHL? Top 20? Top 30? Is this the new definition of a top Center?
Wrong. He is OUR top centre. in 2010-11, the Grabo line outscored the Sharks top line, if memory serves... he's a legit number two, and he's OUR best option. Why the hell do you think Bur^ke paid top buck to keep him here? Im sure he'd have preferred a four year term, but he conceded, in order to keep us competitive in terms of the C position.


Nothing to do with over rating anyone; more to do with understanding the dynamics of the situation. Your Philly example is a poor choice, as Philly had ample depth at the positions they were trading for, and could afford to make those moves. We DO NOT have depth at centre. Our 'depth', is at D, G, and with vets on short, but expensive deals. If inclined to deal for Lou, Burke will likely push for Gillis to take back some cap in the form of Lombardi or Armstrong, plus a prospect, maybe Reimer, but certainly not Grabo. Burke won't dig that hole to fill another. No chance...

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04-26-2012, 09:31 AM
  #224
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MacArthur + Franson

That would be a good deal for Vancouver and we'd could replace Mac with Kadri and Franson wasn't getting playing time anyways.

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04-26-2012, 09:33 AM
  #225
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When these rumours started flying around, I was incredibly skeptical. After a few days, however, I've become warmer and warmer to the idea of pursuing Lu.

1) He's a (more than) legitimate starting goalie
2) A solid mentor and leader for any young goaltender in the Leafs system
3) He's been exposed to a relentless media group in Vancouver - Toronto shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

The only negatives to watch out for, obviously, is the cap hit and the cost to acquire him. Some posters here seem to think it won't cost very much, but I don't think Vancouver has their hands tied. Salary would absolutely have to go the other way, IMO.

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