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Is the dead puck era returning?

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Old
05-09-2012, 01:45 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by thegreaterikku View Post
Here's several simple solutions:

01- Remove the offsides which will virtually eliminate the trap and speed up the flow of the game.

02- Bring back hard penalties in goalie crease. No more crash the net in hope to score a goal. You're in the crease, then you're out.

03- Rule 02 will then eliminate the need for goalies to be uber-protected because of player crashing so equipement could be toned down.

04- Bring back pre-lockout goalie rules so good goalies could play the puck anywhere they want. Keep the same actual line since a player would get a penalty if he blatantly hits a goalie between those lines.

05- Promote referees based on grades. So a good referee would have more work than the others. Teams would have a 24h window to note on scale the referees on last game with detailed notes if there was any miss calls and a new group could check it all out and penalize team that are exagerating. Eventually, games would be called like games and not situations like it is right now.
Removing the trapezoid actually hurts scoring. Its virtually kills power plays on its own because once a team dumps it in the goalie just flips it out. The trapezoid rule is fine.

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05-09-2012, 01:47 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
And just exactly how well did that style serve the Capitals in winning anything?
How well has the new style served them?

They got to game 7 of the 2nd round with the old style only to lose out to the future cup champions.

They need to win tonight in order to repeat that feat with their new system.

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05-09-2012, 01:48 PM
  #78
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The new rules the NHL had been following post lockup have been eroding each season, but I think it's been most noticeable since last year's "anything goes" SCF. The fact is that series was called completely differently than any playoff round since pre-lockout. Combined with the 'rough and tumble' style, I think this has allowed obstruction, hooking, holding, all those types of calls to creep back into game.

I don't know of any other sport where the rules essentially change in the playoffs, where a penalty that would be called in the regular season isn't called in the playoffs. What's the point?

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05-09-2012, 01:51 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
The people who say to reduce the size of goalie equipment are complete idiots and have obviously never played hockey in their lives.

Equipment has gotten bigger, because the shots have gotten harder, I'm a goalie, there's no way I'd wear the same equipment they had in the 80's in 2012, you'd have to be completely insane.

I like the game the way it is, though the only thing I would consider changing is the ice size, there's just not enough room to create good scoring chances, players are forced to shoot from anywhere and hope for a rebound and garbage goal. Also get rid of TV time-outs, not only are they annoying but they make players and goalies less fatigued which means less defensive mistakes from being tired, meaning less goals.

I think the lower scoring is mostly because of shot blocking, I don't think it's because the players are overprotected, you still see tons of guys go down with injuries blocking shots, it's because coaches now expect you to do it.

How in gods name do the massive trappers help protect a goalie? Why do they need to be the size of tennis rackets? Why do blockers have to be that large?
Why do pads need to extend so wide and not around the leg?

I could understand the need for the chest protection but explain the other.
Goaltending doesn't require agility and reflexes nearly as much anymore.

You just need to know who has the puck, where your net is, and when you think it's time to go butterfly and look big. Goaltenders are like blow fish now. Get in position and puff out that gear.

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05-09-2012, 01:53 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I wonder if it's just a cyclical phenomenon in the game? Kind of a chicken or the egg kind of thing but, let's start with the premise that you have an offensive, speedy league, like 80s hockey:

-Teams arm themselves with offensively gifted players, valuing speed, puck possession, scoring, during this period, young players break into the league easily and find jobs on the top two lines.

-Due to the relative rarity of offensively gifted players, who cost a lot of money, you have some teams that try to win other ways, i.e. defensively, or by playing a grinding game that negates the speed and skill.

-Eventually, a grinding team unseats a skill based team for the Stanley Cup, and more and more teams adopt this style of play: there's a tipping point somewhere along the line, and the league turns into the "unwatchable game" filled with airtight defense, suffocating goaltending, heavy grinding, low scores. Size, aggression, and strength are drafted higher and higher as teams arm themselves for this new style of play.

-At some point, you get an oversaturation of grinders and goons in the league, and all of a sudden, a skill based team finds a way to have some success in the playoffs, exploiting the relative lack of mobility and scoring punch. Suddenly, the grinding defensive game looks horribly anachronistic. A handful of teams start phasing out their grizzled veterans and you see a return to an offensive, speed and skill based league.

-Rinse and repeat.
Pretty good post, but I dont see where you're coming from on your last point. It was oversaturation of grinders and goons that brought the dead puck era to a (brief) end, it was changes in the rules and how refs were calling games. Refs making calls based on judgment and "game management" instead of the rules, combined with better goalies and defensive systems, is all it takes for the dead puck era to return (as evidenced by this regular season and playoffs).

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05-09-2012, 02:25 PM
  #81
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I see where you're coming from, but I just can't agree that the solution is to call more penalties. I don't know what the solution is, but whistle after whistle and PP after PP is incredibly frustrating to watch as a fan and really messes up the flow of a game. IMO artificially inflating goal totals by giving out more PPs (or by making PPs more powerful) is not progress.
The point isn’t to artificially inflate the score by calling penalties, its to call penalties to keep the obstruction down. It may be frustrating to see PP after PP, but its way worse to see obstruction not called. We’ve seen multiple games this year with no poweplays called on a team (one I saw had none for either team). It used to be rare for a team to play a penalty-free period. It seemed to be the norm near the end of the season due to the whistles being put away. When players know they can get away with more obstruction, it slows the game down.

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05-09-2012, 02:44 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
How in gods name do the massive trappers help protect a goalie? Why do they need to be the size of tennis rackets? Why do blockers have to be that large?
Why do pads need to extend so wide and not around the leg?

I could understand the need for the chest protection but explain the other.
Goaltending doesn't require agility and reflexes nearly as much anymore.

You just need to know who has the puck, where your net is, and when you think it's time to go butterfly and look big. Goaltenders are like blow fish now. Get in position and puff out that gear.
I'll tell you why, because when you get hit it ****ing hurts.

If you want to be a goalie in a higher level than beer league don't even think about getting a trapper that isn't pro-spec, there's not nearly enough padding in catching gloves. I use a pro glove, and there's a guy on my team who can hurt me if I catch his shot, and I play in a British amateur league.

Blockers have to be large to cover the fingers and the lower wrist, and even then I still sometimes get shots to the fingers if the puck finds its way through the right gaps.

The pads need to extend so wide because if you get caught not square to the shooter because you couldn't move across quick enough, the puck can hit you in the back or side of the leg if the shooter is at the right angle. Even with large pads that cover the five hole you can still take shots to the knee when sliding across the crease and the puck finds its way through the right gaps.

This video blows away your final paragraph. People who don't play the game massively underrate the difficulty of the goalie position and the talent of these athletes, by your logic a CHL goalie could just immediately step into the NHL do butterfly and post a .930 save%


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05-09-2012, 02:52 PM
  #83
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IF Katy-bar-the-door "wallpaper" hockey (a.k.a rope-a dope/ frustrate/ "patient" wait for opponent's mistakes) + WALL goaltender hockey is the new model for winning ,then where does that leave EDM with all that offensive talent and a shot at yakupov to add to it? Maybe instead EDM has to unload the talent show and stock up on grinder shot blocker types and find a wALL goalie?

Of course if EDM stays the course there will be 9 goal games for them (probably against Chicago) but hey --that alone won't be good enough to beat rope-a-dope teams...

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05-09-2012, 04:43 PM
  #84
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Reduce size of goalie equip

Go back to wooden sticks

Actually call penalties

Allow the skilled players to be skilled by actually calling penalties

Improve ice conditions

While were at it, reduce the amount of armor the players wear

Play the same game all year round, like the non joke pro sports do.

Play the same game in the first, third, and overtime periods, see above.

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05-09-2012, 04:57 PM
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Go back to wooden sticks
You have got to be joking...

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05-09-2012, 05:01 PM
  #86
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There is no doubt that dead puck is here. But is another lockout approaching as well? Because these playoffs look A LOT like 2004.

TSN's James Duthie was saying that a Sutter-coached team once beat the No.1 seed, the No.2 seed and the No.3 seed en route to getting to the Stanley Cup Final where he faced a John Tortorella-coached team that featured Brad Richards. This year, Sutter's team has already gotten past the No.1 and No.2 seeded teams in the West...and he faces the No.3 seed.

If history repeats itself, we will see another lockout. Prepare for a reeeeally long summer, folks.


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05-09-2012, 05:03 PM
  #87
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The game has taken a leaf from the SEL where even on big ice, the way to defend is just to collapse around the goalie and block shots.

Bigger Ice wont help.
Smaller goalie equipment will help.
Increasing the size of the goal will help.
The defenders clogging in front of the net reminds me of the problems basketball had
with defenders blocking access to the net.
Is there a way the NHL can reduce the huge amount of shot blocking going on now?

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05-09-2012, 07:52 PM
  #88
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How well has the new style served them?

They got to game 7 of the 2nd round with the old style only to lose out to the future cup champions.

They need to win tonight in order to repeat that feat with their new system.
How well does any style serve any team? The only thing you can look at are the teams that are winning it all and seeing what "style" is generally working in most cases to there.

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05-09-2012, 09:37 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post

Got a feeling the OP is referring to a "low scoring era"... To which I reply... marginally big nets, smaller goalie equipment to the extent the goalies will allow and still maintain their safety, and the League perhaps eventually working towards having a slightly larger ice-surface in the future. Either that, or make dramatic changes to how the game is played.

Teams have all learned that strong defense and good goaltending wins. Don't expect them to sacrifice winning to do anything different.
Although clutch-and-grab is less prevalent now compared to then, I am referring to the neutral-zone-trap, dump-the-puck, crash-the-net-hoping-for-a-lucky-bounce, screen-the-goaltenders era. There is no flow to hockey and skilled players cannot do what they want.

I hope the Capitals lose with Hunter fired. If they win the cup, the dead-puck era will be back as that is the only way to win in the NHL. I loved Ovechkin when he was allowed to do what he wanted. He hits, he shoots, he makes plays, all with reckless abandon back then which made him very entertaining.

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05-09-2012, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Removing the trapezoid actually hurts scoring. Its virtually kills power plays on its own because once a team dumps it in the goalie just flips it out. The trapezoid rule is fine.
All the more reason to remove the trapezoid: to discourage teams from dumping it in. Dump-and-chase is an unelegant way to play hockey. Attacking players should be forced to bring in the puck, making plays, which requires skill.

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05-09-2012, 09:42 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
The NHLPA isn't going to agree to cutting dozens of jobs.
If the NHL offers to expand the league by 2 teams for 32-teams in exchange for eliminating the fourth line, the NHLPA might accept it.

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05-09-2012, 09:47 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by IceHockeyfan View Post
Although clutch-and-grab is less prevalent now compared to then, I am referring to the neutral-zone-trap, dump-the-puck, crash-the-net-hoping-for-a-lucky-bounce, screen-the-goaltenders era. There is no flow to hockey and skilled players cannot do what they want.
Ok, let's just assume for a moment that you're right. However, if it's that style that produces the winner, ultimately the Champion, then that's the style that's likely to be used and continued. So what would you suggest needs to be done in order to prevent teams from using that style? Obviously winning isn't going to stop them.

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05-09-2012, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by IceHockeyfan View Post
Although clutch-and-grab is less prevalent now compared to then, I am referring to the neutral-zone-trap, dump-the-puck, crash-the-net-hoping-for-a-lucky-bounce, screen-the-goaltenders era. There is no flow to hockey and skilled players cannot do what they want.

I hope the Capitals lose with Hunter fired. If they win the cup, the dead-puck era will be back as that is the only way to win in the NHL. I loved Ovechkin when he was allowed to do what he wanted. He hits, he shoots, he makes plays, all with reckless abandon back then which made him very entertaining.
Totally agree, and hopefully its something that is discussed in the CBA discussions this summer. The NHL can be so much better. It has so many talented entertaining players that are being stifled.

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05-09-2012, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Ok, let's just assume for a moment that you're right. However, if it's that style that produces the winner, ultimately the Champion, then that's the style that's likely to be used and continued. So what would you suggest needs to be done in order to prevent teams from using that style? Obviously winning isn't going to stop them.
First step - start calling the obstruction again. It is accepted now that the refs are letting things go again. Start calling these penalties again, and it will open the game up by both more powerplays, but more importantly less obstruction due to the fear of being shorthanded. And if people complain about too many penalties, get rid of the gay automatic puck-over-glass penalty and make it like icing.

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05-09-2012, 09:54 PM
  #95
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Ok, let's just assume for a moment that you're right. However, if it's that style that produces the winner, ultimately the Champion, then that's the style that's likely to be used and continued. So what would you suggest needs to be done in order to prevent teams from using that style? Obviously winning isn't going to stop them.
I would do the following:

1) allow offside (this should reduce effectiveness of neutral zone trap)
2) disallow two-line passing including the red line (this should eliminate cherry picking)
3) bring back foot-in-the-crease rule (this should reduce effectiveness of crash-the-net-looking-for-rebound)
4) reduce goaltending equipment (this should help skilled players pick their spots better)
5) forbid the foot players from dropping down to block shots or passing lanes. Only the goaltender should be allowed to drop down.

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05-09-2012, 10:14 PM
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Totally agree, and hopefully its something that is discussed in the CBA discussions this summer. The NHL can be so much better. It has so many talented entertaining players that are being stifled.
Agree completely. I hope the NHL and the NHLPA understand that finding ways to make ice hockey exciting is in both their best interests.

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05-09-2012, 10:52 PM
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I'll tell you why, because when you get hit it ****ing hurts.

If you want to be a goalie in a higher level than beer league don't even think about getting a trapper that isn't pro-spec, there's not nearly enough padding in catching gloves. I use a pro glove, and there's a guy on my team who can hurt me if I catch his shot, and I play in a British amateur league.

Blockers have to be large to cover the fingers and the lower wrist, and even then I still sometimes get shots to the fingers if the puck finds its way through the right gaps.

The pads need to extend so wide because if you get caught not square to the shooter because you couldn't move across quick enough, the puck can hit you in the back or side of the leg if the shooter is at the right angle. Even with large pads that cover the five hole you can still take shots to the knee when sliding across the crease and the puck finds its way through the right gaps.

This video blows away your final paragraph. People who don't play the game massively underrate the difficulty of the goalie position and the talent of these athletes, by your logic a CHL goalie could just immediately step into the NHL do butterfly and post a .930 save%

Haha that video is funny. Has no relevance to what my point was intended but funny none the less. Way to take it to the extreme though.

Tell me why Brian Elliot can go from cast off to breaking modern goalies save percentage records to then criticized for poor play once his team defence breaks down in the playoffs.


What if Andrew Cogliano broke Gretzky's scoring record? that's the equivalent of what happend.

NHL goalies are interchangeable. Sure you couldn't play it fine.. you got me. But there's not much between NHL goalies.

And no I don't believe you need that massive trapper to protect your hands.. baseball catchers don't wear gloves the size of Texas for gods sakes. Make the padding deeper but don't make the glove a butterfly catching net.

And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if you took a CHL goalie. Dropped him on the Phoenix Coyotes and he put up remarkable numbers. They make Mike Smith and Bryzgalov look like the best goalies in the NHL. Mike Smith was considered garbage in Tampa and now Bryzgalov is in all sorts of heat in Philly.

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05-09-2012, 11:58 PM
  #98
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I'd rather the trend be that teams get smarter (as they are) than have the NHL trend towards the Pittsburgh/Philly series (just as an example).

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05-10-2012, 05:50 AM
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all of these steps won't help effectively to increase goal production. Of course if we would make the goal size bigger or make 4x4 format of the game like in OT, and it'd be easier to score but it is unfair.
The easiest and most effective way to increase GPG is to force players get tired more. Tired players loose concentration and make mistakes, get penalties, and after all reduced speed of the game let superstars show their skills in full amount, and risk to get a concussion reduces too. First 3 lines must have more ice time like in 80s to get tired more. 4th fighting line should receive only 2-3 min per game like in 80s when their only job was to fight. The NHL should limit 4th line ice time down to 5 min or (more radical step) cut the roster down to 9 forwards. And we will get the renessaince. People with 120 points won't reach TOP-10 like in 92/93. Crosby and Malkin will collect 160-200 points, Karlsson and Green - 100 points. Ovechkin and Stamkos will score 80+ goals. All are happy. Gretzky will cry (or will be happy) looking at his broken eternal records. 4th line is a necessary ritual sacrifice to God of Offense.


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05-10-2012, 06:38 AM
  #100
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Haha that video is funny. Has no relevance to what my point was intended but funny none the less. Way to take it to the extreme though.

Tell me why Brian Elliot can go from cast off to breaking modern goalies save percentage records to then criticized for poor play once his team defence breaks down in the playoffs.


What if Andrew Cogliano broke Gretzky's scoring record? that's the equivalent of what happend.

NHL goalies are interchangeable. Sure you couldn't play it fine.. you got me. But there's not much between NHL goalies.

And no I don't believe you need that massive trapper to protect your hands.. baseball catchers don't wear gloves the size of Texas for gods sakes. Make the padding deeper but don't make the glove a butterfly catching net.

And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if you took a CHL goalie. Dropped him on the Phoenix Coyotes and he put up remarkable numbers. They make Mike Smith and Bryzgalov look like the best goalies in the NHL. Mike Smith was considered garbage in Tampa and now Bryzgalov is in all sorts of heat in Philly.
The video has all relevence to your point, you said goalies are just like blowfish, the video proves you wrong that even George Parros can pick the gaps.

You answered your own question with Elliot, it's all about the defensive systems.

Catching gloves aren't too big, you underestimate how difficult it is to make a glove save, you can't just stick it out and hope for the best. The reason they are bigger than baseball gloves is because baseball players don't have sticks slashing their hands when they are covering the puck. Play in goal yourself against decent shooters then tell me you don't think you need it to protect your hands, that's if you could even catch a puck.

If it were possible to just stick a CHL goalie on Phoenix and put up great numbers, why don't they do that? There's a reason most young goalies spend years in the minors before making it in the NHL, they take years to develop the reflexes and athleticism of NHL goalies. If a CHL goalie could just step into the NHL and do butterfly, teams wouldn't pay guys like Lundqvist 6.8 million a year in a salary cap era. They would just sign some kid to an ELC then stack up on superstar forwards and defensemen.


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