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Is the dead puck era returning?

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Old
05-10-2012, 06:48 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
all of these steps won't help effectively to increase goal production. Of course if we would make the goal size bigger or make 4x4 format of the game like in OT, and it'd be easier to score but it is unfair.
The easiest and most effective way to increase GPG is to force players get tired more. Tired players loose concentration and make mistakes, get penalties, and after all reduced speed of the game let superstars show their skills in full amount, and risk to get a concussion reduces too. First 3 lines must have more ice time like in 80s to get tired more. 4th fighting line should receive only 2-3 min per game like in 80s when their only job was to fight. The NHL should limit 4th line ice time down to 5 min or (more radical step) cut the roster down to 9 forwards. And we will get the renessaince. People with 120 points won't reach TOP-10 like in 92/93. Crosby and Malkin will collect 160-200 points, Karlsson and Green - 100 points. Ovechkin and Stamkos will score 80+ goals. All are happy. Gretzky will cry (or will be happy) looking at his broken eternal records. 4th line is a necessary ritual sacrifice to God of Offense.
I'll offer a simple solution for your point - get rid of TV time-outs, everyone is happy

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05-10-2012, 07:03 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
The video has all relevence to your point, you said goalies are just like blowfish, the video proves you wrong that even George Parros can pick the gaps.

You answered your own question with Elliot, it's all about the defensive systems.

Catching gloves aren't too big, you underestimate how difficult it is to make a glove save, you can't just stick it out and hope for the best. The reason they are bigger than baseball gloves is because baseball players don't have sticks slashing their hands when they are covering the puck. Play in goal yourself against decent shooters then tell me you don't think you need it to protect your hands, that's if you could even catch a puck.

If it were possible to just stick a CHL goalie on Phoenix and put up great numbers, why don't they do that? There's a reason most young goalies spend years in the minors before making it in the NHL, they take years to develop the reflexes and athleticism of NHL goalies. If a CHL goalie could just step into the NHL and do butterfly, teams wouldn't pay guys like Lundqvist 6.8 million a year in a salary cap era. They would just sign some kid to an ELC then stack up on superstar forwards and defensemen.

The 5 skaters on each team block 30-40 shots a night nowadays and they don't have all the massive equipment that the goalies have. In fact the shot-attempts are often double the number of shots that actually get to the goal. The 5 skaters are also blocking shots when they are at a higher velocity than what a goalie faces because the skaters are closer to the shooter's stick.

So why is it that the skaters can block shots and get up and skate like nothing happened and yet they don't need all the massive equipment that a goalie has?

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05-10-2012, 07:50 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by C77 View Post
The 5 skaters on each team block 30-40 shots a night nowadays and they don't have all the massive equipment that the goalies have. In fact the shot-attempts are often double the number of shots that actually get to the goal. The 5 skaters are also blocking shots when they are at a higher velocity than what a goalie faces because the skaters are closer to the shooter's stick.

So why is it that the skaters can block shots and get up and skate like nothing happened and yet they don't need all the massive equipment that a goalie has?
A lot of shots are blocked by skates, skates are made of really strong stuff nowadays. Watch this short video, the slow motion part shows the difference between Bauer one95 skates and the older Easton S15's when struck by a puck



When players get hit in the body they get back up because they are ridiculously tough guys, it hurts like hell and they all wake up black and blue the next day but it's the NHL and they're doing whatever it takes to win, and for some guys its how they collect their paycheck. Watch other leagues and you don't see half as much shot blocking.

I don't think this is a valid argument, look how many players limp off to the bench during the game after blocking a shot. There's a reason why most superstars don't block shots.

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05-10-2012, 08:17 AM
  #104
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How about a penalty for any blocked shot that goes out of bounds?

It will discourage shot blocking thus letting more *quality* shots to the goal and if a player is going to block a shot they have to be damn sure they aren't deflecting it by putting their stick in front of it; instead they have to use their body. Ideally, shot blocking would then cause the defender to stay upright as opposed to laying down minimizing the amount of ice that a puck can be stopped by an giving the shooter a better opportunity to hit the net.

I suspect the issue with reduced scoring is a reduction in the quality of chances and work should be done to make it easier for the shooter to increase that metric. More higher-quality chances == more goals. In addition this rule change will not affect goal equipment size and it will expose poor defenders who have poor gap control or are just too slow.

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05-10-2012, 08:30 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
I'll offer a simple solution for your point - get rid of TV time-outs, everyone is happy
OK, i have meant, removing 4th line will broke the current balance between offense and defense. Now we have two offensive lines and two checking lines. If a roster will contain only 9 forwards, one 3rd checking line won't be able to negate two first lines.

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05-10-2012, 08:46 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
OK, i have meant, removing 4th line will broke the current balance between offense and defense. Now we have two offensive lines and two checking lines. If a roster will contain only 9 forwards, one 3rd checking line won't be able to negate two first lines.
I'm saying an easier way to make players tired is to not have TV time-outs. I think someone already said the NHLPA would never allow a reduction to 3 lines

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05-10-2012, 09:44 AM
  #107
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I brought this up in a similar thread on the Playoff Board...

I believe the problem with North American hockey (following the realization in the 90s that defensively strong teams with good goaltending can dominate offensive teams) is that here fans are more in love with the big hit that they are with scoring, though they want both. North America's smaller ice surface, in combination with big, strong defensemen who play great at their position, creates less space for offensive expression. Once you add to that the fact that goalies have also gotten bigger and better since the 80s, and their equipment is bigger, plus coaches realizing that defense wins and they're getting Forwards in on the defense-first mentality... You've effective limited what the offense can do.

You can't convince teams to play an offensive style as long as it's evidenced that defense wins. And tinkering with the rules doesn't seem to work, as we can see since the lockout... Defenses and defensive coaching have adapted.

Ultimately, fans and the League here need to make up their minds. You want more offensive expression, the League will have to slightly increase net dimensions, try to reduce goalie equipment as much as safety will permit, and ultimately have a future objective to have a bigger ice-surface. Fans will have to decide if they truly want more offensive expression at a likely cost of having fewer big hits because of more open ice.

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05-10-2012, 10:48 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I brought this up in a similar thread on the Playoff Board...

I believe the problem with North American hockey (following the realization in the 90s that defensively strong teams with good goaltending can dominate offensive teams) is that here fans are more in love with the big hit that they are with scoring, though they want both. North America's smaller ice surface, in combination with big, strong defensemen who play great at their position, creates less space for offensive expression. Once you add to that the fact that goalies have also gotten bigger and better since the 80s, and their equipment is bigger, plus coaches realizing that defense wins and they're getting Forwards in on the defense-first mentality... You've effective limited what the offense can do.

You can't convince teams to play an offensive style as long as it's evidenced that defense wins. And tinkering with the rules doesn't seem to work, as we can see since the lockout... Defenses and defensive coaching have adapted.

Ultimately, fans and the League here need to make up their minds. You want more offensive expression, the League will have to slightly increase net dimensions, try to reduce goalie equipment as much as safety will permit, and ultimately have a future objective to have a bigger ice-surface. Fans will have to decide if they truly want more offensive expression at a likely cost of having fewer big hits because of more open ice.
I think you're making more out of this than you should. It always comes down to execution, and sometimes the offensive teams come out on top, like when the Avalanche, Lightning and Wings were winning cups playing speedy, puck possession games in the dead puck era, or when the Ducks were winning a smash mouth brand of hockey the second year after the lockout.

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05-10-2012, 11:00 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I think you're making more out of this than you should. It always comes down to execution, and sometimes the offensive teams come out on top, like when the Avalanche, Lightning and Wings were winning cups playing speedy, puck possession games in the dead puck era, or when the Ducks were winning a smash mouth brand of hockey the second year after the lockout.
So, we should just wait around then until certain teams with a different style, which more fans find entertaining, start finding ways to win with that style. It's just a matter of fans being patient.

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05-10-2012, 11:09 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
So, we should just wait around then until certain teams with a different style, which more fans find entertaining, start finding ways to win with that style. It's just a matter of fans being patient.
Did you have a problem with the way the Bruins played last year? True entertainment comes when your team is in it. I'm sure Kings, Devils, Rangers, Caps and Yotes fans are having a nice time.

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05-10-2012, 11:24 AM
  #111
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The answer is that it depends on the Cup champs.

The league's GMs and head coaches are incredibly reactive to what has most recently worked well. This year, teams gravitated to disciplined defensive systems play that led the Bruins to a Cup. Another year, it was all about minute-chewing D, after all of Pronger, Niedermayer and Beauchemin played 27-31 minutes a night. Another year, it was about a defense corps with no superstars, but rather six solid veterans, on Carolina's cup team. The Pens win, and it's about youth and center depth. Just about the only thing that always tracks is you need great goaltending. The supposed blueprint to crafting a Cup contender is always changing, though.

If a plodding defensive team wins the Cup, there will be teams emulating that brand of hockey. If the Kings, say, win the Cup, everyone will be looking at tempo and speed and a ferocious forecheck. So I think it's still TBD.

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05-10-2012, 11:52 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Did you have a problem with the way the Bruins played last year? True entertainment comes when your team is in it. I'm sure Kings, Devils, Rangers, Caps and Yotes fans are having a nice time.
Misunderstanding me! Sorry, probably no fault of yours. Personally, I'm fine with the hockey we're seeing. I'm adaptable, and I've been fine with the NHL in the 90s and currently. I'm primarily responding to what seems to be a prevalent opinion that many fans don't like the low-scoring, tight-checking, defensively dominant hockey that's been taking over the sport again. And I'm discussing what to be done about it. Ultimately, I want the NHL to be entertaining to hockey fans, not just to me and others like me are perfectly fine with defensive hockey.

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05-10-2012, 12:36 PM
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I believe that parity also has a lot to do with the style that most teams play. Teams can't play defensively loose hockey and just simply go all out offensively. Teams are so close in talent level that 1-goal differences between winning and losing are extremely common (take the Bruins-Caps series as a perfect example). Teams have to play it close and limit the chances of the opponent as much as possible.

Back in the 70s and 80s great defensemen were firstly noted for their offensive contributions (today they still are but to a significantly lesser extent), whereas now even Forwards are noted for their defensive play. The focus as greatly changed, and changed in great part due to increased competition within the League. It's also part and parcel as to why today it's highly unlikely to have "dynasties" like in the past.

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05-11-2012, 07:26 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
I'm saying an easier way to make players tired is to not have TV time-outs. I think someone already said the NHLPA would never allow a reduction to 3 lines
are you serious? No TV timeouts - no money from TV, no money - no life at all!

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05-11-2012, 07:29 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
are you serious? No TV timeouts - no money from TV, no money - no life at all!
They would just show more commercials during the intermission, much better than having them during the game since most people don't actually watch the intermission.

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05-11-2012, 07:41 AM
  #116
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They would just show more commercials during the intermission, much better than having them during the game since most people don't actually watch the intermission.
Uh huh. Now, think about what you just said. When are the advertisers more likely to want to pay for a commercial, during a 30-60 second commercial break when half the people won't dare stray far from their chair, or during the intermission when people are taking their potty/eating/I'll see what's on that other channel breaks?

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05-11-2012, 07:56 AM
  #117
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Uh huh. Now, think about what you just said. When are the advertisers more likely to want to pay for a commercial, during a 30-60 second commercial break when half the people won't dare stray far from their chair, or during the intermission when people are taking their potty/eating/I'll see what's on that other channel breaks?
I can dream, I just hate tv time-outs. There is already enough advertising in the rink.

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05-11-2012, 09:14 AM
  #118
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Goalie Equipment anyone?

Terry Sawchuck 5'11" 190 lbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Terry_Sawchuk.jpg

Ben Bishop 6'7" 215 lbs
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2012/wri...ben-bishop.jpg

Original leg pads were horse hide stuffed with kapok and weighed 17lbs per pad.
http://www.keneskysports.com/history.html

During the game they could gain 10 lbs from sweat and water or more!
http://www.milehighhockey.com/2012/3...ipment-edition

The new goal pads are ridculously light (6 lbs per pad), and have special modifications to help with butterfly goalies, and don't gain weight during the game.
http://www.goaliemonkey.com/bauer-go...alone-pro.html

Almost all goalies now are butterfly goalies which effectively blocks the bottom 11" of the net, and with the taller goalies, their shoulders block right to the top of the net,
thus the available area of the net for scoring are now much smaller.

The average goalies have also grown
2000 +> 6'0" 192lbs
2010 +> 6'2" 198lbs
http://ingoalmag.com/general/nhl-goa...e-last-decade/

Only real solution is to make the nets bigger.
Option 1 -> raise the height of the nets 2"
Option 2 -> in addition bow out the side posts a bit so in the middle the net is 2" wider

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05-11-2012, 10:19 AM
  #119
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well, it's a fair idea to increase goalie equipment weight. So they (goalies) wouldn't be able to make very quick moves by gloves and blockers. And it would be harder to stick work for them.

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05-11-2012, 10:21 AM
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what do you peolpe think, is it worth to reduce the puck size?

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05-11-2012, 10:23 AM
  #121
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well, it's a fair idea to increase goalie equipment weight. So they (goalies) wouldn't be able to make very quick moves by gloves and blockers. And it would be harder to stick work for them.
Interesting idea, like the added weight the put on jockeys and their saddles for horse racing. Maybe add some lead foil in the pads?

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05-11-2012, 10:24 AM
  #122
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what do you peolpe think, is it worth to reduce the puck size?
unlikely.

I'd rather see them getting rid of the rule on curved hockey blades.

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05-11-2012, 10:26 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...khVcVNqVVJiSnc

Shows the differences in scoring. Data tab gives you info on goals/min and time spent at various. ES includes 4 on 4 and 3 on 3 and thus includes overtime

Even strength scoring pace is slightly down, however there's way way more ES time per game name. Roughly 99 minutes/game (2 teams * 49.5 mins) versus 82 in 05-06

Thank you for explaining it this way!
Some buffoons look at it and say even strength goals are up, but don't look at the fact that there has been more even strength minutes played!

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05-11-2012, 10:49 AM
  #124
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In my opinion the improvements in technology of goalie equipment is cancelled out by player stick and skate technology improvements

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05-11-2012, 11:16 AM
  #125
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This statement annoys me.

07-08 was really their first great offensive year, finishing 3rd in GF in the league. In that year they lost to the Pens in game 7 of the second round. That pens team had been to the cup finals the year before, and went on to win the cup that year. Certainly a disappointing loss, but not a bad one.

The next year (09-10) was their offensive juggernaut year with them scoring 318 goals compared to 272 for the #2 team. In that year they were eliminated by the Habs in the first round in game 7. In that series, specifically games 6 and 7, Washington utterly dominated the Habs, but ran into a goalie who put in a performance of a lifetime. The Caps outshot the Habs 96-38 over the last 2 games.

Then suddenly they couldn't win by being offensive and everything had to change. They scored 94 goals less but allowed only 36 less goals. Their goal differential dropped by 58 goals. They won a first round series mainly because their goalie was phenomenal, but then got swept in the 2nd round. This year they barely made the playoffs.

Sweet they won a playoff series, but they're still no further than they were with their offensive first system. And they were a bounce away from losing in the first round.

Amen

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