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Time for Seguin to take #1 role

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04-28-2012, 02:43 PM
  #101
Dr Quincy
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
If it worked right. Seguin's speed would make Krejci look like he came straight out of the matrix, and Krejci's can slow the game down to the point Segs looked like he was fired out of a railgun.
I don't disagree with that, except I think Krejci at C and Seguin at wing accomplishes the same thing AND give the better passer the role of passer and the better finisher the role of finisher AND gives the better defensive player more defensive responsibilities and the worse defensive player less defensive responsibilities.

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04-28-2012, 02:49 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
I'm thinking you don't really understand the role of a center, based on what you're saying.

The center is NOT the offensive force of any line, outside of being a bit of a playmaker. The wings are the offensive force. They lead the charge up the ice. They do this because they are at the half walls or above during the breakout, typically receiving the breakout pass from the center, who is positioned defensively in his own zone, receiving the initial pass from the dmen, and then begins the transition up the ice by passing to one of the wings.

Once in the o-zone, the three forwards work the triangle around the net, but the center tends to lurk a little higher, preparing to participate in the backcheck.

This is why I don't see Seguin as necessarily being an elite, #1 pivot in this stage of his career, certainly not with the Bruins, not yet. There are too many defensive responsibilities CJ demands of his centers that Seguin is either not comfortable with or incapable of providing just yet.

His speed makes him a perfect winger. He just needs to find the right forwards to play with, which is why I like him with Bergeron as his center, and another fast winger (Marchand, Peverly) working with him. And he needs to learn how to manage the puck better in the ozone. He doesn't do that well at all.

Right now, Seguins biggest drawbacks are his tendency to break into the zone all by himself and try to stickhandle through the traffic (and no, it's not because he's so blindingly fast that no one can keep up), and his shyness towards the dirty areas of the ice. Not a very effective forechecker, and he doesn't win that many battles along the boards. He still needs to become a more complete player before he assumes the role as #1 center.
What he said....

You pretty much summed up my feelings and thoughts better than I could.

Plus too many times I see Seguin pass the puck to where he THINKS someone is and often times there is nobody there (or worse.. a defensive player there). Part of that is just feel and will probably come, but Krejci absolutely can see the ice better and plays with options. Seguin is still a little Kessel-like in that he has his mind made up of what his first option is (blow past the defender on the outside, or rip a shot or try outside-in move) but he doesn't really play YET with that quick thinking reaction confidence.

He's absolutely deadly when he gets a step on the D. Keep him on the wing and let him be that guy. I have no problem letting him play some C in camp to see if he can transition there, but I don't go into camp with the plan that he'll be the #1 or even #2 C.

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04-28-2012, 03:50 PM
  #103
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I`ll state that never have I, for one moment considered DK a #1 centerman, he may be centering what many refer to as the "#1" line but.....

I`d be more than thrilled to see a Bergy/Segs/Kelly and Soupy crew up the middle, where`s DK you ask???? Haha, if your asking, you haven`t read too many of my feelings on the guy

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04-28-2012, 08:02 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
No they don't. You are correct. Do they win the Cup with Seguin playing 1st line C minutes and Krejci not on the team? Simple answer NO THEY DON'T.

I'm not a huge Krejci guy but I'm just perplexed by the reactions here. All year long people have been touting the B's model of having 3 scoring lines and 6 20 goal scorers and a 4th line that can play as THE way to build a champion. Top heavy teams were ridiculed and told that Chia has the true secret to how to build a real year in year out long term winner.

Now all of a sudden people are saying that having 3 2nd lines ISN'T the way to build and we need a bonafide #1 player/line?

Seems contradictory. I'm not saying don't trade Krejci, but I think we need to see if Seguin can play center at ALL in the NHL before we consider him the guy to carry a first line on a Stanley Cup team center duty.
Depend's on who you get if your taking Bobby Ryan then sign either Suter or Prarise then yes they do have enough.

The thing that they wanted Seguin to do was get better in his own end which he did. He was proble there best break out passer, the only thing he really need's to do is get better in the faceoff's but let's face it krejci is so hot and cold in the face off circle's it's not a big deal. Your acting like seguin has never played center before he's a natural center if you give him the talent he will be fine.

Now im not saying krejci for anything but if you can get a goal scorer why not. He's eventually going to get moved or he's going to have to become a winger.

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04-28-2012, 10:15 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
I don't see they defensive abilities of a natural center. I don't see the playmaking of a natural center. I don't see the vision of a natural center.

I see the absolute blazing speed of a winger. I see the filthy shot of a winger. I see the ability to stretch the play. Right now he reminds me more of Pavel Bure than of Steve Yzerman. Maybe I'm wrong.
There have been plenty of explosive centers who used their speed to stretctch the D or blow through the neutral zone, Doc. Guys like Lafontaine, Modano, Sakic, Datsyuk, Fedorov... Lots of those guys had the filthy shot too.

Fwiw, I see the vision and playmaking of a natural center. I also see him rush things and force things but I write that off as part of the learning process at this level. I think the kid is only going to impress people more and more with his passing as he gets more comfortable.

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04-28-2012, 10:44 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
I'm thinking you don't really understand the role of a center, based on what you're saying.

The center is NOT the offensive force of any line, outside of being a bit of a playmaker. The wings are the offensive force. They lead the charge up the ice. They do this because they are at the half walls or above during the breakout, typically receiving the breakout pass from the center, who is positioned defensively in his own zone, receiving the initial pass from the dmen, and then begins the transition up the ice by passing to one of the wings.

Once in the o-zone, the three forwards work the triangle around the net, but the center tends to lurk a little higher, preparing to participate in the backcheck.

This is why I don't see Seguin as necessarily being an elite, #1 pivot in this stage of his career, certainly not with the Bruins, not yet. There are too many defensive responsibilities CJ demands of his centers that Seguin is either not comfortable with or incapable of providing just yet.

His speed makes him a perfect winger. He just needs to find the right forwards to play with, which is why I like him with Bergeron as his center, and another fast winger (Marchand, Peverly) working with him. And he needs to learn how to manage the puck better in the ozone. He doesn't do that well at all.

Right now, Seguins biggest drawbacks are his tendency to break into the zone all by himself and try to stickhandle through the traffic (and no, it's not because he's so blindingly fast that no one can keep up), and his shyness towards the dirty areas of the ice. Not a very effective forechecker, and he doesn't win that many battles along the boards. He still needs to become a more complete player before he assumes the role as #1 center.
I disagree Reg.

Yeah, the center stays low and takes that first pass from the D, and then feeds it to a winger on the wall out by the tops of the circles, but then that winger either gets pinched or trapped, forcing him to slip a pass back to the center, who's exiting the zone with speed and in space (which is IDEAL for Seguin). Either that, or the winger comes a little lower to buy himself enough time to throw the puck cross ice to the far side winger. Either way, it's the center and the weak side winger who cross the red line first. Not the two wingers.

In the Ozone, I don't think there's any edict that calls for the center to stay high, all three forwards are interchangable. Seguin is there more than Bergeron when those two play together. We've seen Horton do a lot of damage from that position. I think everybody's supposed to get involved in those cycles and exchanges, the high guy just rotates down to the front of the net and then the corner and then back out high.

All that said, I wouldn't just jump into this with no backup plan. The fact is we don't know if Seguin is ready for primetime #1 center duty on a Cup contender, but he never will be if he doesn't start somewhere. I'd like to start that process next year. I think he's ready to make the transition and I think he'll be even better there than he was at wing, but I wouldn't do it at the expense of Krejci. Not yet.

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04-28-2012, 10:47 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
I have no problem letting him play some C in camp to see if he can transition there, but I don't go into camp with the plan that he'll be the #1 or even #2 C.
Fwiw, he was the best center in camp this year. IMO, of course.

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04-29-2012, 12:28 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I disagree Reg.

All that said, I wouldn't just jump into this with no backup plan. The fact is we don't know if Seguin is ready for primetime #1 center duty on a Cup contender, but he never will be if he doesn't start somewhere. I'd like to start that process next year. I think he's ready to make the transition and I think he'll be even better there than he was at wing, but I wouldn't do it at the expense of Krejci. Not yet.

I'd also like to see Seguin play center eventually. I think he already has excellent skill passing the puck.

If the B's were experimenting with breaking him in, on a lower line to get acclimated and work his way up, how would you see the line-up next year?

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04-29-2012, 07:32 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
Yeah, the center stays low and takes that first pass from the D, and then feeds it to a winger on the wall out by the tops of the circles, but then that winger either gets pinched or trapped, forcing him to slip a pass back to the center, who's exiting the zone with speed and in space (which is IDEAL for Seguin). Either that, or the winger comes a little lower to buy himself enough time to throw the puck cross ice to the far side winger. Either way, it's the center and the weak side winger who cross the red line first. Not the two wingers.
It's not that we've never seen this happen as you describe it, I just don't think that's a typical breakout. I think typically, the weak side winger is used more to carry the puck when the strong wing ends up heading into traffic. Or, as you say, back to the center then to the weak side wing. However, typically, you see the two wingers breaking into the zone. For the Bs, you usually see Marchand and Seguin breaking into the zone; not always but usually. Same with Horton and Looch.

And while I don't disagree with how play in the ozone proceeds, typically you see the center playing back away from the walls and the forwards forecheck at them. Cycling involves them all, as you say, but when they are forechecking in the corner, one wing is usually active on the forecheck, one is waiting/helping netside along the boards, while the center is positioned higher, perhaps back towards the dot a bit, ready to either accept the puck from the scrum or ready to begin the backcheck. When the team loses possession, you typically see Bergeron or Krejci leading the forwards on the backcheck, not Marchand, Seguin, Lucic or Horton.

I'm also not saying Seguin won't be a #1 center someday, I just don't agree -- from what I saw this season -- that he's ready to be that center. I think his value remains at wing. I guess in many ways his situation mirrors Rask's. He's stuck in a bit of a log jam, too. His day will come, I just don't see it happening just yet.

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04-29-2012, 10:45 AM
  #110
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During game 7 I believe i heard them say that Seguin is having Trouble in faceoffs. Hopefully Seguin will work on faceoffs this summer. until he does better in faceoffs he is NOT ready to take over as #1 center. Didn't the Bruins just resigned Krejci back in December.

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04-29-2012, 01:20 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by jerrywally23 View Post
During game 7 I believe i heard them say that Seguin is having Trouble in faceoffs. Hopefully Seguin will work on faceoffs this summer. until he does better in faceoffs he is NOT ready to take over as #1 center. Didn't the Bruins just resigned Krejci back in December.
Everyone sucked in the faceoff circle's. How do u expect him to be good in the facoff circle when he doesnt even take them. What he take's maybe 1 or 2 game.

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04-29-2012, 01:22 PM
  #112
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I disagree Reg.

Yeah, the center stays low and takes that first pass from the D, and then feeds it to a winger on the wall out by the tops of the circles, but then that winger either gets pinched or trapped, forcing him to slip a pass back to the center, who's exiting the zone with speed and in space (which is IDEAL for Seguin). Either that, or the winger comes a little lower to buy himself enough time to throw the puck cross ice to the far side winger. Either way, it's the center and the weak side winger who cross the red line first. Not the two wingers.

In the Ozone, I don't think there's any edict that calls for the center to stay high, all three forwards are interchangable. Seguin is there more than Bergeron when those two play together. We've seen Horton do a lot of damage from that position. I think everybody's supposed to get involved in those cycles and exchanges, the high guy just rotates down to the front of the net and then the corner and then back out high.

All that said, I wouldn't just jump into this with no backup plan. The fact is we don't know if Seguin is ready for primetime #1 center duty on a Cup contender, but he never will be if he doesn't start somewhere. I'd like to start that process next year. I think he's ready to make the transition and I think he'll be even better there than he was at wing, but I wouldn't do it at the expense of Krejci. Not yet.
Exactly how we know if he's ready or not if they don't give him a shot.

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04-29-2012, 01:25 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by KOHitter87 View Post
Exactly how we know if he's ready or not if they don't give him a shot.
Pre-game skates, practice, that kind of stuff. He's probably not on the dot for the faceoff because he's probably not very good at it yet. And sorry, I'm not on board with the "throw the guy in the water to see him swim" thing. I'd rather know that when he's getting in position to take the faceoff that he's got a pretty good shot at actually winning it. He'll get there...eventually.

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04-29-2012, 01:43 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Pre-game skates, practice, that kind of stuff. He's probably not on the dot for the faceoff because he's probably not very good at it yet. And sorry, I'm not on board with the "throw the guy in the water to see him swim" thing. I'd rather know that when he's getting in position to take the faceoff that he's got a pretty good shot at actually winning it. He'll get there...eventually.
If it's partice is'nt that a horrible reason he's going up agianst guy's like Soupy who's second best behinde Bergy, Kelly, and Krejci who's not great but at time's he is very good. All but Krejci are very good to great. It's like anything else they more you do it in a game situation the better you get. I just think it is time to have him there going into the third season, and if he's a center i don't want him wasting away with guy's like Caron and Poo. So that leaves only one spot.

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04-29-2012, 01:57 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by KOHitter87 View Post
If it's partice is'nt that a horrible reason he's going up agianst guy's like Soupy who's second best behinde Bergy, Kelly, and Krejci who's not great but at time's he is very good. All but Krejci are very good to great. It's like anything else they more you do it in a game situation the better you get. I just think it is time to have him there going into the third season, and if he's a center i don't want him wasting away with guy's like Caron and Poo. So that leaves only one spot.
I think you want him centering against guys like Bergeron and Soupy. That will make him better. If he's truly capable of elite status, then he's going to have to go up against the best in the league and win. Going up against Bergeron will allow him that chance to develop.

CJ will put him at a top center role when it's time. Until then, I'm personally content to let run-and-gun at wing with the top guys.

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04-29-2012, 11:22 PM
  #116
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I think you want him centering against guys like Bergeron and Soupy. That will make him better. If he's truly capable of elite status, then he's going to have to go up against the best in the league and win. Going up against Bergeron will allow him that chance to develop.

CJ will put him at a top center role when it's time. Until then, I'm personally content to let run-and-gun at wing with the top guys.
I don't agree with you, but i understand were you are coming from

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04-29-2012, 11:28 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by jerrywally23 View Post
During game 7 I believe i heard them say that Seguin is having Trouble in faceoffs. Hopefully Seguin will work on faceoffs this summer. until he does better in faceoffs he is NOT ready to take over as #1 center. Didn't the Bruins just resigned Krejci back in December.
Broken left-hand. He could spend the off-season working on his face-offs.

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04-30-2012, 09:07 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
It's not that we've never seen this happen as you describe it, I just don't think that's a typical breakout. I think typically, the weak side winger is used more to carry the puck when the strong wing ends up heading into traffic. Or, as you say, back to the center then to the weak side wing. However, typically, you see the two wingers breaking into the zone. For the Bs, you usually see Marchand and Seguin breaking into the zone; not always but usually. Same with Horton and Looch.

And while I don't disagree with how play in the ozone proceeds, typically you see the center playing back away from the walls and the forwards forecheck at them. Cycling involves them all, as you say, but when they are forechecking in the corner, one wing is usually active on the forecheck, one is waiting/helping netside along the boards, while the center is positioned higher, perhaps back towards the dot a bit, ready to either accept the puck from the scrum or ready to begin the backcheck. When the team loses possession, you typically see Bergeron or Krejci leading the forwards on the backcheck, not Marchand, Seguin, Lucic or Horton.

I'm also not saying Seguin won't be a #1 center someday, I just don't agree -- from what I saw this season -- that he's ready to be that center. I think his value remains at wing. I guess in many ways his situation mirrors Rask's. He's stuck in a bit of a log jam, too. His day will come, I just don't see it happening just yet.
I respectfully disagree Reg.

I think the way they draw it up, they want that first pass to the winger to come back to the center (or go cross ice). Every team traps now, and that's how you beat the trap. You let them close on that player who takes the first pass, and it's up to him to spring the C.

I also disagree that the center is the guy that plays away from the walls or high on the forecheck. I think what you see is a function of the players strengths/chemistry. Horton and Looch are more effective down low so maybe that's why you see Krejci out high more often, but on the Bergeron line it's Bergy and Marchand who are more effective down low and as such, Seguin is the guy who's out high more often. I think the reason Bergeron and Krejci are better backcheckers is because they're smarter defensive players. That said, I've seen Seguin on the backcheck as much as either of them (usually chasing down his own giveaways. ;-) )

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04-30-2012, 09:30 AM
  #119
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Get Ryan for Krejci and sign Parise, those wings should do

Parise Seguin Ryan
Lucic Bergeron Caron
Marchand Peverley Horton

Something like that would be sick!!!

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04-30-2012, 09:31 AM
  #120
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Exactly how do we know if he's ready or not if they don't give him a shot.
Exactly. We won't know until he does it. And whether that's next year or 3 years from now, he's not going to start out day 1 as the team's best center. There's going to be a learning curve no matter when he starts. What's that old saying, "You don't know, what you don't know." There's just no substitute for experience.

With that in mind, I think it would be crazy to trade Krejci before you test all this out. If Seguin struggles, as some folks think, then you're going to need Krejci. What I think will happen is that he'll do really well during the regular season, but then have to climb another steep learning curve in the playoffs- and we'll be able to lean on Krejci as he works through it.

Either way, I think it's important to test this out before his contract expires so you can get an idea of where he's going to play for the next few years, and can plan your salary cap structure accordingly.

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04-30-2012, 09:39 AM
  #121
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I play Krejci on the right wing longterm before I consider trading him. The man would make a very good top line right wing, and would be a great force there to support any young developing center.

I dunno if you could trade Krejci for a right wing who would be as effective as Krejci would if he were just moved to right wing.

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04-30-2012, 09:58 AM
  #122
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Think the thing is Krejci's NMC kicks in soon so if they are going to trade him it kind of has to be this off season.
Is that correct?

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04-30-2012, 01:42 PM
  #123
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Seguins already hitting the gym, he retweeted this

Matt Nichol ‏ @M_Nichol Reply Retweet Favorite Open
LOVE this time of year! So great having the boys slowly trickling back into the gym. Energized! Time to get to work! #thereisnoOFFseason!

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04-30-2012, 02:05 PM
  #124
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I play Krejci on the right wing longterm before I consider trading him. The man would make a very good top line right wing, and would be a great force there to support any young developing center.

I dunno if you could trade Krejci for a right wing who would be as effective as Krejci would if he were just moved to right wing.
What makes you think Krejci would make a better wing than center? He doesn't have the strength, speed, or shot to be a good top line wing. What he does best is past and set up for the right moments. Krejci was at his best when he was a second line center (in the regular season anyways)

I think going forward seguin will need to take over the number one center role at some point, and Krejci needs Horton on his right and someone else beside lucic on his left.

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04-30-2012, 02:10 PM
  #125
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Seguins already hitting the gym, he retweeted this

Matt Nichol ‏ @M_Nichol Reply Retweet Favorite Open
LOVE this time of year! So great having the boys slowly trickling back into the gym. Energized! Time to get to work! #thereisnoOFFseason!
Damn, kid. At least take a nap or something between Game 7 and the offseason workouts.

No, but you do have to love his work ethic.

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