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Markham Arena II

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Old
09-22-2012, 05:09 PM
  #401
MarkhamNHL
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Markhams chances of getting an NHL. team even if they build this arena is pretty slim because MLSE. will demand huge money for them to give up there teritory to the area somewhere around 250 million on top of what the team will cost which could be around 400 million dollars & good luck in trying to find someone who is willing to sink 600-700 million dollars into hockey team . Hamilton is a booming city right now with condos , hotels , new stadium being bulit , posible casino ect. all the momentum is in Hamiltons favor right now & with Global spectrum & Live nation takking over Copps Coliseum Hamilton is in far better position to land a NHL. than its ever been in years .
LOL.. sorry buddy... Hamilton has next to no chance due to Buffalo and is in a worse position simply due to geography than Markham.... and you could substitute everything you just said about Hamilton and replace it with Markham, with the exception that the new stadium will be a 20,000 seat arena. as well, Markham has been booming for a while now and will in the future.

The only way Hamilton will ever get a team is if the Sabres move there... so stop buying Sabres tickets and shooting yourselves in the foot


another factor... marketability

a lot easier to Market another TORONTO franchise south of the 49 than HAMILTON. people down there get confused about Columbus and Raleigh, never mind knowing Hamilton. TORONTO moniker will draw better marketing wise.

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09-22-2012, 07:03 PM
  #402
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What makes you think MLSE. is going to allow Markham to have an NHL. team & not Hamilton because last time I checked Markham was will within 50 mile territory of MLSE. & Hamilton is just out of MLSE. territory & ask yourself who would MLSE. perfer an NHL. team & arena closer takking hockey & non hockey business away or Hamilton that would have next to no effect MLSE. intrests ? . Hamilton right now is the best place in which to invest in in Ontario & 3rd nationaly also Copps Coliseum can be NHL. ready in one off season do to the unique way it was bulit . Let me tell you people somthing there is a lot more intrest in putting an NHL. team in Hamilton than there is Markham why 2 reasons 1 . Hamilton has access to around 8 million people around Hamilton area , Niagara region , Southwestern Ontario & some parts of the GTA. which makes Hamilton the largest unserved NHL. market in North America not Markham . 2. Hamilton has the path of least restance between the 2 because Hamilton is well outside the Sabres teritory & is just outside leafs teritory whille Markham is well inside leafs territory & MLSE. will fight tooth & nail to keep Markham out of the NHL. & I said this before if that means allowing Hamilton to have NHL. team so be it its a case of going with the devil you know rather than one you don't .

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09-22-2012, 07:18 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
LOL.. sorry buddy... Hamilton has next to no chance due to Buffalo and is in a worse position simply due to geography than Markham.... and you could substitute everything you just said about Hamilton and replace it with Markham, with the exception that the new stadium will be a 20,000 seat arena. as well, Markham has been booming for a while now and will in the future.

The only way Hamilton will ever get a team is if the Sabres move there... so stop buying Sabres tickets and shooting yourselves in the foot


another factor... marketability

a lot easier to Market another TORONTO franchise south of the 49 than HAMILTON. people down there get confused about Columbus and Raleigh, never mind knowing Hamilton. TORONTO moniker will draw better marketing wise.
First of all Buffalo is about 106km away from Hamilton well outside the 50 that is there teritory same for the leafs territory it end 17 km. outside of Hamilton you can't say the same for markham which is well within leafs territory about 31 km. a little to close for comfort for MLSE. .

Marketability is not a problem because the team can be simpley called Ontario.

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09-22-2012, 07:45 PM
  #404
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Guys, guys.... neither market has much of a shot at landing a team until the Leafs and/or Sabres change their minds about wanting additional team(s) in what they view as their backyards, rightly or wrongly.

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09-22-2012, 10:05 PM
  #405
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First of all Buffalo is about 106km away from Hamilton well outside the 50 that is there teritory same for the leafs territory it end 17 km. outside of Hamilton you can't say the same for markham which is well within leafs territory about 31 km. a little to close for comfort for MLSE. .

Marketability is not a problem because the team can be simpley called Ontario.
the 50 mile thing means nothing... what means something is that 20% of Sabres tickets come from that neck of the woods... the NHL will never put a team in Hamilton without knowing Buffalo can survive without cross border support. The Leafs can't do squat about a team in their territory, the NHL gets the final say. Plus with BEll/Rogers, i'm certain this is no longer the issue as they have everything to gain. territory fees to help pay the costs of buying the team plus brand new NHL content.

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09-22-2012, 10:06 PM
  #406
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Guys, guys.... neither market has much of a shot at landing a team until the Leafs and/or Sabres change their minds about wanting additional team(s) in what they view as their backyards, rightly or wrongly.
The Leafs think they can veto a team, but the NHL has several times stated that is not the case.

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09-22-2012, 11:16 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
The Leafs think they can veto a team, but the NHL has several times stated that is not the case.
It's not about vetoing it outright, but using their influence in the BoG. Leafs are a very powerful ownership and it would not be at all hard to imagine a scenario where they rally votes against potential relocation or expansion bids in Markham or Hamilton. So long as there's at least one other potential landing spot for an NHL team open, I just don't see either Markham or Hamilton getting a team unless the potential owners of said team throws a huge amount of money at the Leafs and the league beyond which they could expect to get by putting teams elsewhere.

And, if push came to shove, I'm sure that the Leafs would be willing to test whether or not they have the legal right to block a team in the courts.

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09-23-2012, 05:31 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
the 50 mile thing means nothing... what means something is that 20% of Sabres tickets come from that neck of the woods... the NHL will never put a team in Hamilton without knowing Buffalo can survive without cross border support.
From the recent Buffalo thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/sabres-nhl/article1042395.ece

Also mentions that Canadians currently make up about 10% of Sabres' season ticket base. Thought this was worth mentioning because this often comes up in debates about a new team in so Ontario.
(Note that the link to the article is no longer valid. The Buffalo News archives are undergoing renovations.)

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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
Currently 10% subscriber fan base from Canada, but whenever there is talk of team coming to Hamilton, it always jumps to 20%. Canadian fans of the Sabres apparently have the ability of mitosis....
I think I might have to trot this out everytime the 20% meme gets used....

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09-23-2012, 10:42 AM
  #409
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Well.... they are saying two different things, though.... the Sabres very well could have 10% of their season ticket base be from Canadian patrons and still have 20% of their overall average daily attendance be from Canada.

Not claiming insider knowledge one way or the other, though.

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09-23-2012, 11:33 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
the 50 mile thing means nothing... what means something is that 20% of Sabres tickets come from that neck of the woods... the NHL will never put a team in Hamilton without knowing Buffalo can survive without cross border support. The Leafs can't do squat about a team in their territory, the NHL gets the final say. Plus with BEll/Rogers, i'm certain this is no longer the issue as they have everything to gain. territory fees to help pay the costs of buying the team plus brand new NHL content.
First of all 20% of the Sabres tickets comming from Hamilton & niagara region is grossley exaggerated its more like 10% & dropping do to the new passport laws at the border also the a Sabres have long waitting list for season tickets just like the leafs . Sabres management said this this durring the Balsille fiasco with the coyotes that Sabres have no teritory claim to the Hamilton NHL. market also if you take look around Hamilton the Sabres do not advertise , sell there merchandise in our department stores & do not televise there games in Hamilton . This is Business & MLSE. dose not have everything to gain when in fact they have a lot to lose if this arena is bulit namely concerts , trade show ect. & if they try to land an NHL. for this so called arena that would cut into there profits even more . So in my opinion MLSE. will do the one that they can control if this arena is bulit in Markham & that is fight tooth & nail to keep an NHL. team from ever takking root there & like I said if that mean letting Hamilton into the NHL. to do it so be it .

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09-23-2012, 12:23 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Well.... they are saying two different things, though.... the Sabres very well could have 10% of their season ticket base be from Canadian patrons and still have 20% of their overall average daily attendance be from Canada.
... what difference does it make that a 42yr old franchise has a 10% or even 20% ST subscriber base from the border towns & cities close to & conveniently located to Buffalo?. What have the Sabres ever done to cultivate fans from the Burlington/Hamilton, Kitchener, Waterloo & Cambridge region? Between the distance & the drive, the border hassles hardly a market that could account for more than a few hundred (if that) ST holders. Walk-up's as well are not people flooding in from the aforementioned pockets en mass. These are fans from Niagara & environs. A quick hop & a skip across the line with the exception of Leaf visits when you'll find Torontonians shut out of the ACC making the trek.... not to mention the fact that the Sabres have a waiting list for ST's along with finally a fantastic owner who is fully committed to building championship teams while simultaneously contributing to the community in sponsoring the game at the amateur, high school & college levels.

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09-23-2012, 12:28 PM
  #412
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The NHL should be doing everything possible to encourage Derby rivalries, instead of standing in the way.

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09-23-2012, 01:02 PM
  #413
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The NHL should be doing everything possible to encourage Derby rivalries, instead of standing in the way.
... you'd think huh? Teams in Markham & Hamilton (QC) would be absolute boons to the Leafs, Sabres, indeed all of the Great Lakes & North Eastern (and Canadian teams from Coast-Coast) franchises, the entire league.

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09-23-2012, 05:07 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Well.... they are saying two different things, though.... the Sabres very well could have 10% of their season ticket base be from Canadian patrons and still have 20% of their overall average daily attendance be from Canada.

Not claiming insider knowledge one way or the other, though.
What's the likelihood of that being true? That would mean that approx. 33% of game day tickets were bought by Canadians. Doesn't seem likely does it?

The more likely explaination is that 20% is one of those numbers that get thrown around as if it's true without any evidence to actually back it up.

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09-23-2012, 05:26 PM
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sigh ... all the old arguments. newsflash - the game has changed. big time.

buffalo is doing quite well, thank you very much, and that billionaire fella who just bought them doesn't need to be 'protected' from big bad hamilton, and the leafs are now owned by two media giants more interested in broadcast content than tickets and beers.

we will see franchises in hamilton and somewhere else in the GTA within 10 years ... but if ya want a team in markham, maybe you should build yourself an arena first.

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09-23-2012, 05:31 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
What's the likelihood of that being true? That would mean that approx. 33% of game day tickets were bought by Canadians. Doesn't seem likely does it?.. The more likely explaination is that 20% is one of those numbers that get thrown around as if it's true without any evidence to actually back it up.
... like every other number the NHL & its individual franchises throw around, completely bogus, manufactured; purpose specific. Real easy to find out what the dealeo is with Buffalo. Go public. Employ an independent auditor to parse Postal Codes from Zip Codes, then nail down the Postal Codes to areas of residence. No privacy law issues breached. Id be shocked if you found more than a couple of hundred in Hamilton-Wentworth proper, Kitchener-Waterloo & Cambridge, Guelph. Relying on Canadians from Niagara Falls, Niagara on the Lake & others for ST's & walk-up is just fine n' dandy, but to get carried away & include the entire Peninsula clean on up to the Burlington Bridge?! Nothing but facile, avaricious & greedy posturing since the mid 80's. Burden of Proof is on Buffalo, and until such time as they actually prove it, the argument is both baseless & insincere...

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09-23-2012, 06:27 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
What's the likelihood of that being true? That would mean that approx. 33% of game day tickets were bought by Canadians. Doesn't seem likely does it?

The more likely explaination is that 20% is one of those numbers that get thrown around as if it's true without any evidence to actually back it up.
Probably, I was just pointing out that the two statements you quoted weren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

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09-23-2012, 08:37 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
sigh ... all the old arguments. newsflash - the game has changed. big time.

buffalo is doing quite well, thank you very much, and that billionaire fella who just bought them doesn't need to be 'protected' from big bad hamilton, and the leafs are now owned by two media giants more interested in broadcast content than tickets and beers.

we will see franchises in hamilton and somewhere else in the GTA within 10 years ... but if ya want a team in markham, maybe you should build yourself an arena first.
I believe it is 20% and the Sabres are looking to increase that. Why would that be if they already have a waiting list of Americans? 15% STH are Canadians, at least another 5% are gameday visitors. Just look how Leaf fans takeover the place when the Leafs play there.

Well in April 2011 the president of the Sabres claimed........
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hoc.../18013671.html
"Right now, 15% of our season ticket holders come from Canada," Black said. "As for the players, don't forget that a lot of guys in the league played junior hockey not too far away (in Ontario), so that's a selling point. And we have a lot of Canadian alumni players in the area too.

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09-23-2012, 08:58 PM
  #419
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15% of Sabres season tickets come from canada don't make me laugh black must be smokking somthing fierce if anything the numbers have gone down in recent years because people need to have passport to go across the border now & & hockey fans in canada don't want the deal with the hassel & long lineups at the border to see a hockey game .

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09-23-2012, 08:59 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
"As for the players, don't forget that a lot of guys in the league played junior hockey not too far away (in Ontario), so that's a selling point. And we have a lot of Canadian alumni players in the area too.
Really. So I guess that explains why in about 1989 none other than Rene' Robert walks into my office in Toronto, the Southern Ontario Sales Rep for Carrera high end eyewear distributed by a Toronto based importer who couldnt "beg" a job in upstate New York, a member of the French Connection Line. Winds up living in and working in Southern Ontario, unrecognised, ignomisiously, for years after he left Buffalo. Left or Right Winger on the greatest line EVER in Buffalo & in the HISTORY of the NHL. Have I got that right?. So I should give a frigg about Buffalonians. Cut them slack yes?.

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09-23-2012, 09:02 PM
  #421
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Really. So I guess that explains why in about 1989 none other than Rene' Robert walks into my office in Toronto, the Southern Ontario Sales Rep for Carrera high end eyewear distributed by a Toronto based importer who couldnt "beg" a job in upstate New York, a member of the French Connection Line. Winds up living in and working in Southern Ontario, unrecognised, ignomisiously, for years after he left Buffalo. Left or Right Winger on the greatest line EVER in Buffalo & in the HISTORY of the NHL. Have I got that right?. So I should give a frigg about Buffalonians. Cut them slack yes?.
Hey that's Black speaking not I.....

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09-23-2012, 09:05 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
15% of Sabres season tickets come from canada don't make me laugh black must be smokking somthing fierce if anything the numbers have gone down in recent years because people need to have passport to go across the border now & & hockey fans in canada don't want the deal with the hassel & long lineups at the border to see a hockey game .
You suggest the president of the Sabres doesn't know where his fans are coming from? I guess you have a more accurate set of books. Like the bazillion dollars it would cost Markham for a team but Hamilton can do it for less than half the price.

I got it, thanks.......

Edit to add: If you read the article, it appears Black looks to increase the number of Canadian fans, not giveup on them. So can you splain this Lucy? How does he increase Canadian fans by allowing a team in Hamilton?


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09-23-2012, 10:14 PM
  #423
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First of all here are the total costs of putting an NHL. team in Hamilton & Markham .

Markham
Arena - 350 million +
Territory fee to MLSE . - 250 million
Team it self - 300 - 400 million

Total costs = 900 million - 1.2 billion

Hamilton
Renovated Copps Coliseum - 150 million
Territory fees - 25 million for buffalo & 50 million for MLSE.
Team it self - 300 - 400 million

Total cost = 500 - 625 million

The reason the teritory fees in Hamilton are less than Markhams is that a new arena & NHL. team in Markham would take hockey & non hockey events away from MLSE. so MLSE. would probley want more money to offset thoses losses .

The Buffalo Sabres fans in Ontario are from Niagara Falls , Welland & Fort Erie not Hamilton so a NHL. team in Hamilton would not effect there bottom line but if you ask me they should be marketing more on there side of the border insted of trying to expand there fan base on our side . The only reason why the Sabres are even in the teritory rights picture is because seymore knox wanted to keep Hamilton open just in case Buffalo did not work so he would have an easy move .

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09-23-2012, 10:26 PM
  #424
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I cant see the NHL ever allowing a team in Markham. Way too close to the Leafs. Needs to be west side.

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09-23-2012, 11:01 PM
  #425
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I cant see the NHL ever allowing a team in Markham. Way too close to the Leafs. Needs to be west side.
Meaning what exactly? "West Side" as in "Hamilton" ?... Talk to me Jimmy. Yer not makin any sense!.

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