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Markham Arena II

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Old
11-04-2012, 08:33 PM
  #501
Melrose Munch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aqib View Post
Disagree. The GTA has a decidedly northern sprawl. The York Region has over a million people and is constantly growing. Just because there aren't high rises doesn't mean its farm country.

I could see it playing out like this

http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...nsplanted-nets
The growth is going out east too.

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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
Wait a minute, does this mean this has suddenly gone off the rails? Has Markham suddenly avoided becoming Glendale North?
That is Hamilton

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11-04-2012, 08:53 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
I disagree. You may want to play a game of semantics but the reality is a second team is needed in the GTA. Both the NHL and the GTA will benefit greatly by putting a second team there.
While it would indeed benefit, again it is not "Needed"

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11-04-2012, 09:05 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
Wait a minute, does this mean this has suddenly gone off the rails? Has Markham suddenly avoided becoming Glendale North?
An arena will get built somewhere in the GTA.

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11-04-2012, 09:06 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
I disagree. You may want to play a game of semantics but the reality is a second team is needed in the GTA. Both the NHL and the GTA will benefit greatly by putting a second team there.
What's the argument for this?

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11-04-2012, 09:19 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
This is bad news the GTA needs a second NHL team and it is quite clear the NHL believes putting it in Hamilton would be too damaging to Buffalo.
The NHL. dose not belive an NHL. team in Hamilton would hurt the Sabres in fact they want a team in Hamilton just on there terms & by there rules simple as that . Because right now Hamilton is booming with investment & construction especially in the downtown core & with Global Spectrum \ Live Nation takking over Copps in the spring & are committed to bringing a NHL. team to Hamilton .

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11-04-2012, 09:38 PM
  #506
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The GTA needs three teams.

- The Leafs in Toronto.
- A team in Markham / Vaughan City for York & Simcoe Regional Municipalities
- A team in Mississauga for Peel & Halton Regional Municipalities

A man can dream...

I've even got names thought out. The team in Markham could be officially The Toronto Simcoe of York & Simcoe Regional Municipalities, more commonly known as the Toronto Simcoe or the Simcoe. The team in Mississauga could be officially The Toronto Brock of Peel & Halton Regional Municipalities, more commonly known as the Toronto Brock or the Brock.

They could start and end the NHL season with Toronto vs. NYC series.

So start the season in Toronto with a Hockey Day in Toronto sort of thing with a Toronto vs. NYC thing. From 12:00 - 3:00 the Toronto Brock play the New Jersey Devils. From 4:00 - 7:00 the Toronto Simcoe play the New York Islanders. From 8:00 - 11:00 the Leafs play the Rangers.

End the season with a similar series, but in NYC.

They should have a package ticket that lets you attend all three games. $400 for good tickets to all three games, transportation and alcohol inclusive.

OK... I'll put the pipe down now, and keep dreams to myself.


Last edited by saffronleaf: 11-04-2012 at 09:47 PM.
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11-04-2012, 11:34 PM
  #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aqib View Post
Disagree. The GTA has a decidedly northern sprawl. The York Region has over a million people and is constantly growing. Just because there aren't high rises doesn't mean its farm country.

I could see it playing out like this

http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...nsplanted-nets
No, it doesn't. There's 800,000 more people living in Toronto's western suburbs over the northern ones.


Last edited by htpwn: 11-04-2012 at 11:46 PM.
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11-05-2012, 02:02 AM
  #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aqib View Post
An arena will get built somewhere in the GTA.
I doubt that very much, I think this was as close as it's going to get...

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11-05-2012, 03:15 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
I doubt that very much, I think this was as close as it's going to get...
Agreed.

On top of that, a place like "Markham" does not fit the marketable area that the current NHL needs, the NHL is trying to expand to america.. I gurantee 95% of americans have NO idea where Markham is.

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11-05-2012, 05:23 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by StreetSharks View Post
Agreed.

On top of that, a place like "Markham" does not fit the marketable area that the current NHL needs, the NHL is trying to expand to america.. I gurantee 95% of americans have NO idea where Markham is.
Obviously a team in the GTA would be marketed as a Toronto team. It's not like the Islanders have been marketed as the Nassau Islanders. If a team comes to Markham, it'll be the Toronto _____ of York Region (or Markham). But for short, it'd be marketed as a Toronto team outside of Toronto. Within Toronto, it'd be different.

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11-05-2012, 05:25 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
No, it doesn't. There's 800,000 more people living in Toronto's western suburbs over the northern ones.
Yeah. Peel & Halton are definitely larger than York. Peel itself is larger than York.

But as of late, now that Peel has matured a bit in terms of growth, York Region seems to be experiencing the most rapid growth, especially Vaughan.

Regardless, the regions north of Toronto and west of Toronto have a million+ people. Both should have teams.

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11-05-2012, 06:41 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Obviously a team in the GTA would be marketed as a Toronto team. It's not like the Islanders have been marketed as the Nassau Islanders. If a team comes to Markham, it'll be the Toronto _____ of York Region (or Markham). But for short, it'd be marketed as a Toronto team outside of Toronto. Within Toronto, it'd be different.
Toronto is a City though, so it would not make sense to name TWO teams after one specific city, New York is a state thus it makes more sense.

If a team in Toronto would like to be successful (or it's surrounding counties) it would need to simply be called by "Ontario" or "GTA"... Heck even York sounds decent.

But Toronto would simply not work, especially with the history of the Leafs.

Regardless, Markham is a name that would not be marketable.

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11-05-2012, 07:47 AM
  #513
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Originally Posted by StreetSharks View Post
Toronto is a City though, so it would not make sense to name TWO teams after one specific city, New York is a state thus it makes more sense.

If a team in Toronto would like to be successful (or it's surrounding counties) it would need to simply be called by "Ontario" or "GTA"... Heck even York sounds decent.

But Toronto would simply not work, especially with the history of the Leafs.

Regardless, Markham is a name that would not be marketable.
All teams named new york represent the city of greater new york. Same with all team representing Toronto. There should be no confusion. The Leafs do not own the name Toronto.

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11-05-2012, 11:18 AM
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetSharks View Post
Toronto is a City though, so it would not make sense to name TWO teams after one specific city, New York is a state thus it makes more sense.

If a team in Toronto would like to be successful (or it's surrounding counties) it would need to simply be called by "Ontario" or "GTA"... Heck even York sounds decent.

But Toronto would simply not work, especially with the history of the Leafs.

Regardless, Markham is a name that would not be marketable.
The Lakers/Clippers and White Sox/Cubs don't seem to have an issue with it.

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11-05-2012, 12:19 PM
  #515
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I am getting sick & tirerd of people from Toronto (GTA.) comparring Toronto to New York , Los Angeles & Chicago to make there case for a 2nd NHL. team for the city . Let me tell you somthing the reason New York , Los Angeles & Chicago can support multiple teams in the same league & sport is because they have population base to support 2 teams just take a look .

New York - 19 million
Los Angeles - 13 million
Chicago - 9 million

When you add up the population of thoses 3 cities it adds to around 41 million more than the entire country of Canada .

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11-05-2012, 12:58 PM
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
I am getting sick & tirerd of people from Toronto (GTA.) comparring Toronto to New York , Los Angeles & Chicago to make there case for a 2nd NHL. team for the city . Let me tell you somthing the reason New York , Los Angeles & Chicago can support multiple teams in the same league & sport is because they have population base to support 2 teams just take a look .

New York - 19 million
Los Angeles - 13 million
Chicago - 9 million

When you add up the population of thoses 3 cities it adds to around 41 million more than the entire country of Canada .
Population is one thing, but number of hockey fans is another. Call me crazy, but the number of hockey fans in the GTA probably exceeds the combined number of hockey fans in those three markets, or at the very least is very near equal.

Let's compare Chicago and Toronto for a second. Could Toronto support an additional NBA, MLB, or even two NFL teams? Almost assuredly not. Meanwhile, Chicago can support two MLB teams and probably could support the return of a second NFL team and the creation of a second NBA team, too, because that's how popular those sports are in the market. But a second NHL team? Almost assuredly not. Meanwhile, Toronto/GTA could almost definitely support two or even three NHL teams in their backyard, just because that's how many hockey fans they really have. When it comes to the other three sports, one isn't enough for Chicago but it is for Toronto. For hockey, on the other hand, one is enough for Chicago but it's not enough for Toronto.

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11-05-2012, 01:41 PM
  #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
I am getting sick & tirerd of people from Toronto (GTA.) comparring Toronto to New York , Los Angeles & Chicago to make there case for a 2nd NHL. team for the city . Let me tell you somthing the reason New York , Los Angeles & Chicago can support multiple teams in the same league & sport is because they have population base to support 2 teams just take a look .

New York - 19 million
Los Angeles - 13 million
Chicago - 9 million

When you add up the population of thoses 3 cities it adds to around 41 million more than the entire country of Canada .

Looks like that 9 million for Chicago is looking at its metropolitan area. The problem is that the US and Canadian metro areas are different as in this case the US one includes a bigger area of land. A more direct comparison to Canada would be to look at the Golden Horseshoe region of Ontario which will then have about 1 million fewer people.

On a city basis, given that Chicago's population has been declining recently, its likely that Toronto now has more people than Chicago (3rd largest city amongst our 2 countries).

Sidenote: If Ontario was a US State, it would be the fifth largest in terms of population after California, Texas, New York and Florida.


Last edited by HookeyPlayer: 11-05-2012 at 01:51 PM.
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11-05-2012, 02:02 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
I am getting sick & tirerd of people from Toronto (GTA.) comparring Toronto to New York , Los Angeles & Chicago to make there case for a 2nd NHL. team for the city . Let me tell you somthing the reason New York , Los Angeles & Chicago can support multiple teams in the same league & sport is because they have population base to support 2 teams just take a look .

New York - 19 million
Los Angeles - 13 million
Chicago - 9 million

When you add up the population of thoses 3 cities it adds to around 41 million more than the entire country of Canada .
Let me tell you some facts. The GTA has 500% more hockey fans then NYC and 10000% more then the entire state of California.

If I was a betting man I wouldn't be dropping a dime on the steel city getting an NHL team.

Markham has little to no chance to get a team as well but it's still a 1000 times greater then Hamiltons.

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11-05-2012, 02:09 PM
  #519
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http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...l-ready-arena/

Two more city councillors have added dissenting voices to plans to build an NHL-ready arena in the Toronto suburb of Markham, bringing the total number of confirmed opponents on council to seven which is enough to form a majority.

Several councillors contacted by the National Post last week said they stood opposed to the existing plan in part because it offered no guarantee of an NHL team.

They don't want to build a white elephant like Hamilton did. They want an NHL team.

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11-05-2012, 02:15 PM
  #520
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http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...l-ready-arena/

Quote:
“It became clear to me several months ago that this project is not viable without an NHL team,” Campbell wrote. “We should not be spending $325-plus million to lure an NHL team here. It’s not the correct way forward. This strategy is akin to building a restaurant in an attempt to lure Tim Hortons; it’s just not done this way.”
cbcwpg is right. Sadly, Hamilton proved this to be true in the 1980s, and accordingly I was convinced that the fix was in for an NHL team if Markham built an arena. Something definitely smells here.

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11-05-2012, 02:25 PM
  #521
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http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...l-ready-arena/



cbcwpg is right. Sadly, Hamilton proved this to be true in the 1980s, and accordingly I was convinced that the fix was in for an NHL team if Markham built an arena. Something definitely smells here.
Hamilton fell for the "build it and they will come" business model. No harm in trying, but it just didn't work out for them. Winnipeg built the MTS Centre for $135M, but did not build it to get an NHL team. It was built for the sole reason Winnipeg needed an new arena no matter what. It was only after it was built and was successful that TNSE went looking for a team. And if they hadn't gotten the Thrashers, they still would have had the 3rd busiest arena in Canada.

It's risky for Markham to build an arena on the hopes of getting an NHL team. If you need an arena and have a business plan that works without an NHL team, then fine, build it. But if it will only work with an NHL team... I don't know... would you trust the NHL to send a team your way? And this goes for QC as well.

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11-05-2012, 04:39 PM
  #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
I am getting sick & tirerd of people from Toronto (GTA.) comparring Toronto to New York , Los Angeles & Chicago to make there case for a 2nd NHL. team for the city . Let me tell you somthing the reason New York , Los Angeles & Chicago can support multiple teams in the same league & sport is because they have population base to support 2 teams just take a look .

New York - 19 million
Los Angeles - 13 million
Chicago - 9 million

When you add up the population of thoses 3 cities it adds to around 41 million more than the entire country of Canada .
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Population is one thing, but number of hockey fans is another. Call me crazy, but the number of hockey fans in the GTA probably exceeds the combined number of hockey fans in those three markets, or at the very least is very near equal.

Let's compare Chicago and Toronto for a second. Could Toronto support an additional NBA, MLB, or even two NFL teams? Almost assuredly not. Meanwhile, Chicago can support two MLB teams and probably could support the return of a second NFL team and the creation of a second NBA team, too, because that's how popular those sports are in the market. But a second NHL team? Almost assuredly not. Meanwhile, Toronto/GTA could almost definitely support two or even three NHL teams in their backyard, just because that's how many hockey fans they really have. When it comes to the other three sports, one isn't enough for Chicago but it is for Toronto. For hockey, on the other hand, one is enough for Chicago but it's not enough for Toronto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HookeyPlayer View Post
Looks like that 9 million for Chicago is looking at its metropolitan area. The problem is that the US and Canadian metro areas are different as in this case the US one includes a bigger area of land. A more direct comparison to Canada would be to look at the Golden Horseshoe region of Ontario which will then have about 1 million fewer people.

On a city basis, given that Chicago's population has been declining recently, its likely that Toronto now has more people than Chicago (3rd largest city amongst our 2 countries).

Sidenote: If Ontario was a US State, it would be the fifth largest in terms of population after California, Texas, New York and Florida.
Quote:
Originally Posted by syc View Post
Let me tell you some facts. The GTA has 500% more hockey fans then NYC and 10000% more then the entire state of California.

If I was a betting man I wouldn't be dropping a dime on the steel city getting an NHL team.

Markham has little to no chance to get a team as well but it's still a 1000 times greater then Hamiltons.
And to add to this what is JMROWE's excuse for Philly which had 2 ball teams or San Francisco which has 2 ball teams and 2 NFL teams 10 miles from each other.

And Toronto has 6.5 million people. San Francisco 7.4 million.

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11-05-2012, 06:20 PM
  #523
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Let me tell you some facts. The GTA has 500% more hockey fans then NYC and 10000% more then the entire state of California.

If I was a betting man I wouldn't be dropping a dime on the steel city getting an NHL team.

Markham has little to no chance to get a team as well but it's still a 1000 times greater then Hamiltons.
This is clearly incorrect.

I LIVED in ontario, and I met many, i repeat MANY people who were not hockey fans.


not everyone in CANADA loves Hockey, and not everyone in Toronto is a hockey fan, fact is you cannot prove these numers.

NYC region has 22 million people or so, and there could be 3 million hockey fans, while Toronto has around 6 million, only 2 million could be hockey fans.

These numbers are clearly incorrect, but not the entire population will be a fan,not everyone in Canada is a fan of the game, I lived there for over 20 years.

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11-05-2012, 06:39 PM
  #524
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This is clearly incorrect.

I LIVED in ontario, and I met many, i repeat MANY people who were not hockey fans.


not everyone in CANADA loves Hockey, and not everyone in Toronto is a hockey fan, fact is you cannot prove these numers.

NYC region has 22 million people or so, and there could be 3 million hockey fans, while Toronto has around 6 million, only 2 million could be hockey fans.

These numbers are clearly incorrect, but not the entire population will be a fan,not everyone in Canada is a fan of the game, I lived there for over 20 years.
Most people don't even like sports so I have to agree with this.

I don't know if this makes sense, but I know people who were Habs fans but not NHL fans. If there was no Montreal they would not like hockey.

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11-05-2012, 09:43 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by StreetSharks View Post
This is clearly incorrect.

I LIVED in ontario, and I met many, i repeat MANY people who were not hockey fans.


not everyone in CANADA loves Hockey, and not everyone in Toronto is a hockey fan, fact is you cannot prove these numers.

NYC region has 22 million people or so, and there could be 3 million hockey fans, while Toronto has around 6 million, only 2 million could be hockey fans.

These numbers are clearly incorrect, but not the entire population will be a fan,not everyone in Canada is a fan of the game, I lived there for over 20 years.
No, you can't conclusively prove it. The NHL did do a market study though, which supported the poster's general assertion.

Brought forward during the Phoenix Coyotes bankruptcy case, the study estimated that there were 25% more hockey fans in Southern Ontario than Metropolitan New York and that a second team in the area would very likely be a top 5 revenue generator for the league.

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