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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Bob MaCown ..fan 590 makes a great point

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Old
12-10-2004, 11:49 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Potatoe
And when no one gives it too him what happens?
The Leafs will step up and sign him.

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12-10-2004, 11:52 PM
  #27
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And we should care that the Leafs signed Keane for $25mil?

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12-10-2004, 11:54 PM
  #28
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And we should care that the Leafs signed Keane for $25mil?
It was a joke.

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12-11-2004, 12:16 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Trottier


Owners' objective: have the opportunity to build/maintain a financially and competitively viable franchise.

(Some) fans' objective: prohibit Chris Pronger from earning as much as the free market system allows. Don't let that other team buy all the shiny "player-toys". Even if accumulating all those expensive toys (in the case of Toronto, St. Louis, NYR, Philly, etc.) have resulted to date in not a single Cup, nor even an appearance in the Finals in the last seven seasons!

I'm all for putting more equitable amounts of cash in owner's pockets among the 30 franchises, through revenue sharing. But telling them the extent to which they can or cannot allocate that money (i.e., hardcap) is another.
and in the case of Detroit, Dallas, Colorado it got them six Stanley Cups in the last 10 years.
while some of these big market teams fail in putting together a champion, they also prevent the small market teams from doing so by signing away their best players AND pushing up salary for other comparable players.
its not my objective to prevent pronger from earning as much as he can, and i dont really care if the owners are making a profit either. all i care about is, if the GM of my favorite team runs the team properly, that it have a legit chance at winning the cup without having a $55M+ payroll (because we cant afford it). and right now, i dont really see that. and if some people here think that is our fault for being a small market and we dont deserve to be in the same league, then maybe we can keep the old CBA and kill off all those cities that cant compete financially. however, i believe theres a way to make it work so we can keep all 30 teams in the nhl, but it might take some sacrafice from both sides (owners and players).

 
Old
12-11-2004, 03:50 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
i didnt know my post would create so much confusion, i guess i should've been more specific.
what i meant was that when pronger becomes a UFA next year the leafs are likely one of those teams that offer up $7-10M for his service.
another comparable player that can hit the UFA market next year is scott neidermayer, comparable because they are both elite Dman earning similar contract now and becomes UFA next year.
hope that clears things up
and this is a problem ? who cares ? someone is going to sign Pronger, would you prefer the "winning" team to sign him for 2m ?

i dunno, i dont really care. im not jealous if my team cant sign him and frankly wouldnt too happy to pay any player 10m, tax or not.

you guys are afraid of a challenge. pfft.

dr

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12-11-2004, 09:52 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
and in the case of Detroit, Dallas, Colorado it got them six Stanley Cups in the last 10 years.
while some of these big market teams fail in putting together a champion, they also prevent the small market teams from doing so by signing away their best players AND pushing up salary for other comparable players.
its not my objective to prevent pronger from earning as much as he can, and i dont really care if the owners are making a profit either. all i care about is, if the GM of my favorite team runs the team properly, that it have a legit chance at winning the cup without having a $55M+ payroll (because we cant afford it). and right now, i dont really see that. and if some people here think that is our fault for being a small market and we dont deserve to be in the same league, then maybe we can keep the old CBA and kill off all those cities that cant compete financially. however, i believe theres a way to make it work so we can keep all 30 teams in the nhl, but it might take some sacrafice from both sides (owners and players).
I can see where you're coming from, and I largely agree with you that all organizations need the ability to keep their teams together when they build them, but I think you're also doing a disservice to teams like Detroit and Colorado. Their payrolls are as large as they are because they have spent to keep their teams together and I"m sure they'd like to have spent less to accomplish that tast if they could.

How many of those teams were built largely through UFA? How many offered massive contracts to RFA? Now, while all of them have turned more towards bringing players in from other teams over the past four years or so, I think a good case could be made their the quality of their teams have also steadily slipped over that time period. They're still threats, but they also still have a lot of players left over from their cores.

anyway, my rant ends here.

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12-11-2004, 10:20 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Kid Canada
And most likely sign for 10 million per season with the Toronto Maple Leafs. If only the old CBA expired in 2 years.
The day of the $10 million a year player is over.

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12-11-2004, 10:20 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Winger98
I can see where you're coming from, and I largely agree with you that all organizations need the ability to keep their teams together when they build them, but I think you're also doing a disservice to teams like Detroit and Colorado. Their payrolls are as large as they are because they have spent to keep their teams together and I"m sure they'd like to have spent less to accomplish that tast if they could.

How many of those teams were built largely through UFA? How many offered massive contracts to RFA? Now, while all of them have turned more towards bringing players in from other teams over the past four years or so, I think a good case could be made their the quality of their teams have also steadily slipped over that time period. They're still threats, but they also still have a lot of players left over from their cores.

anyway, my rant ends here.
now you are giving colorado and detroit too much credit. the last colorado stanley cup was centered around a $10m a year goalie, Roy, a $9m defenseman, Blake and an aging $6m defenseman, Bourque(i may be off by a buck or two on raymond). Yes Sakic, Forsberg, & Foote played a big part in that cup team, but they go no where without $25m invested in 3 players acquired in trades.

the last wings cup featured hasek, shanahan, hull, robitaille, larionov, chelios, duchesne, draper, olausson, hasek and others. all of those guys were trades, salary dump trades or ufa's.

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12-11-2004, 10:24 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK
The day of the $10 million a year player is over.
I disagree. With a hard cap of $38m a team could get it done with a $10m player.
they will be rare, but they will be there. they must be players that can save money elsewhere on the roster for ownership by taking up ice time.

marty broduer, nik lidstrom, peter forsberg are all like that. broduer could play every game in a 72 game schedule. lidstrom could easily play 30:00 a night. forsberg could easily play first line, first pp unit and first pk unit.

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12-11-2004, 10:33 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
I disagree. With a hard cap of $38m a team could get it done with a $10m player.
they will be rare, but they will be there. they must be players that can save money elsewhere on the roster for ownership by taking up ice time.

marty broduer, nik lidstrom, peter forsberg are all like that. broduer could play every game in a 72 game schedule. lidstrom could easily play 30:00 a night. forsberg could easily play first line, first pp unit and first pk unit.
What happeneds when these "big" stars get injured? Throw the season down the drain? The heartless Forsberg alone is a guaranteed injury for 20-30 games a season lately.

One player making up 25% of a teams payroll is retarded imo.

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12-11-2004, 02:19 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DementedReality
and this is a problem ? who cares ? someone is going to sign Pronger, would you prefer the "winning" team to sign him for 2m ?

i dunno, i dont really care. im not jealous if my team cant sign him and frankly wouldnt too happy to pay any player 10m, tax or not.

you guys are afraid of a challenge. pfft.

dr
actually i was only replying to the question "who are they (the leafs) going to sign that will improve their club in a major way?". my answer was pronger. im not sure how you get the "afraid of a challenge" part from that.

 
Old
12-11-2004, 03:01 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by txpd

the last wings cup featured hasek, shanahan, hull, robitaille, larionov, chelios, duchesne, draper, olausson, hasek and others. all of those guys were trades, salary dump trades or ufa's.
Thank God, my faith in most people's stupidity is restored.

So the Red Wings acquiring Draper for $1 constitutes buying a player? Or signing Olausson out of retirement? Or trading Primeau and Coffey for Shanahan?

You really need to have a look at the last 22 drafts for the Red Wings and thier history of free agent siginings.

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12-11-2004, 04:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
actually i was only replying to the question "who are they (the leafs) going to sign that will improve their club in a major way?". my answer was pronger. im not sure how you get the "afraid of a challenge" part from that.
well maybe it was misdirected. however, the frustration i have in seeing the "envy" most people have is high.

i dunno, it doesnt bother me one bit if Calgary or Vancouver or Edmonton (the three teams i follow the most) cant sign the same types of players that PHI, TOR and STL do.

i am as diehard a Canucks fan as you can know. the Canucks dumped tonnes of salary in the late 90's (Messier, Bure, Mogilny, Linden, Gelinas, McLean, Brown, Lumme, Ronning) and so what ?

anyhow, i guess i dont disagree that some teams need some help, but to hear many fans talking about how so many teams in the league cant sign expensive players as a good reason to see the league shut down, is just something i wish people would drop.

in my opinion its drive by fans greed and envy.

dr

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12-11-2004, 10:08 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by DementedReality
well maybe it was misdirected. however, the frustration i have in seeing the "envy" most people have is high.

i dunno, it doesnt bother me one bit if Calgary or Vancouver or Edmonton (the three teams i follow the most) cant sign the same types of players that PHI, TOR and STL do.

i am as diehard a Canucks fan as you can know. the Canucks dumped tonnes of salary in the late 90's (Messier, Bure, Mogilny, Linden, Gelinas, McLean, Brown, Lumme, Ronning) and so what ?

anyhow, i guess i dont disagree that some teams need some help, but to hear many fans talking about how so many teams in the league cant sign expensive players as a good reason to see the league shut down, is just something i wish people would drop.

in my opinion its drive by fans greed and envy.

dr
i dont think "small market teams cant sign expensive players (UFA)" is the reason for the shut down. i cant speak for others, but to me, the bigger problem is "small market teams cant build a champion because they cant even keep their core players long enough to make a run at it".

 
Old
12-11-2004, 10:48 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
i dont think "small market teams cant sign expensive players (UFA)" is the reason for the shut down. i cant speak for others, but to me, the bigger problem is "small market teams cant build a champion because they cant even keep their core players long enough to make a run at it".
how did OTT do it ? how come EDM cant ?

how did TBY do it ? how come FLA cant ?

food for thought. although im sure many wont look at the menu because they already know what they want at the restaurant.

dr

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12-11-2004, 11:42 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
now you are giving colorado and detroit too much credit. the last colorado stanley cup was centered around a $10m a year goalie, Roy, a $9m defenseman, Blake and an aging $6m defenseman, Bourque(i may be off by a buck or two on raymond). Yes Sakic, Forsberg, & Foote played a big part in that cup team, but they go no where without $25m invested in 3 players acquired in trades.

the last wings cup featured hasek, shanahan, hull, robitaille, larionov, chelios, duchesne, draper, olausson, hasek and others. all of those guys were trades, salary dump trades or ufa's.
Calgary: Iginla, Regehr, Conroy, Reinprecht, Niemenen, Commodore, Warraner, Kipprusoff, Simon, Donavan, Gelinas, McAmmond, Yelle, Oliwa, Ference,

Tampa Bay: Andreychuck, St. Louis, Sydor, Khabibulin, Taylor, Fedotenko, Pratt, Stillman, Modin, Dingman, Sarich, Roy, Neckar

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12-11-2004, 11:51 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
i dont think "small market teams cant sign expensive players (UFA)" is the reason for the shut down. i cant speak for others, but to me, the bigger problem is "small market teams cant build a champion because they cant even keep their core players long enough to make a run at it".
On top of the small vs large market, the NHL has a second problem that has surprisingly gotten far less press during this labor disagreement: Canadian vs US dollars. I keep seeing Edmonton lumped in with the small market argument, but their problems exist not because of the size of Edmonton, but because of the exchange rates. If the Canadian dollar had been worth a bit more, on average, over the past decade, I'm willing to bet the Oil would be fine financially.

It sucks the Oil, and other Canadian teams, are hampered by something so out of their control, but I've never been sold on the idea that it's entirely the NHL's responsibility to compensate for that.

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12-12-2004, 01:23 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Winger98
Calgary: Iginla, Regehr, Conroy, Reinprecht, Niemenen, Commodore, Warraner, Kipprusoff, Simon, Donavan, Gelinas, McAmmond, Yelle, Oliwa, Ference,

Tampa Bay: Andreychuck, St. Louis, Sydor, Khabibulin, Taylor, Fedotenko, Pratt, Stillman, Modin, Dingman, Sarich, Roy, Neckar
Gelinas/Oliwa/Ference where from UFA. The rest where either part of a significant trade in the franchises history or euqal talent and draft picks traded for them. That is not buying it is called building a strong team just like Colorado has done in the past, the Red Wings on the other hand hahaha.

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12-12-2004, 01:26 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Go Flames Go
Gelinas/Oliwa/Ference where from UFA. The rest where either part of a significant trade in the franchises history or euqal talent and draft picks traded for them. That is not buying it is called building a strong team just like Colorado has done in the past, the Red Wings on the other hand hahaha.
if a cap was in place, CGY wouldnt have Iginla, Reinprecht, Warrener or Regehr to name 4.

it might have an aging and relativly expensive Joe Nieuwendyk, Al Macinnes and retired Theo Fleury.

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12-12-2004, 01:34 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by DementedReality
if a cap was in place, CGY wouldnt have Iginla, Reinprecht, Warrener or Regehr to name 4.

it might have an aging and relativly expensive Joe Nieuwendyk, Al Macinnes and retired Theo Fleury.

dr
Well that was the past, and this is now, and we don't want to loose Iginla, Kipprusoff, Regher, Leopold, Phanuef, Warrner, Reinprecht, Langkow, Lombardi and all of these guys, we want to be able to retain them and add some other players.

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12-12-2004, 04:39 AM
  #46
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[QUOTE=NYR469]i don't think it is unreasonable to expect the owners to start using some semblence of self-control, common sense and intelligence...

Well, call me a misanthrope or pessimist, but somehow I have no faith in the common sense of people.

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12-12-2004, 06:26 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Go Flames Go
Well that was the past, and this is now, and we don't want to loose Iginla, Kipprusoff, Regher, Leopold, Phanuef, Warrner, Reinprecht, Langkow, Lombardi and all of these guys, we want to be able to retain them and add some other players.
A salary cap won't protect you from losing players. Take the most owner friendly cap out there - the NFL. What happens every summer? Good teams lose solid players to teams that have cap space and a lack of good players.

The tradeoff for a restrictive salary cap seems to be greater access to free agency for players. Do you think the Flames good young core could be kept together if players are UFAs after 4 season like players in the NFL?

What a lot of small market fans seem to want is a league in which money doesn't matter. A cap of any sort means that money is always going to be the primary concern with any hockey matter.

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12-12-2004, 06:45 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Go Flames Go
Gelinas/Oliwa/Ference where from UFA. The rest where either part of a significant trade in the franchises history or euqal talent and draft picks traded for them. That is not buying it is called building a strong team just like Colorado has done in the past, the Red Wings on the other hand hahaha.
Just to point it out...

Ference was a trade with Pittsburgh, the Flames sent the Penguins a conditional draft pick in return. Only Gelinas and Oliwa were UFA.

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12-12-2004, 12:32 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Alfie#11
A salary cap won't protect you from losing players. Take the most owner friendly cap out there - the NFL. What happens every summer? Good teams lose solid players to teams that have cap space and a lack of good players.

The tradeoff for a restrictive salary cap seems to be greater access to free agency for players. Do you think the Flames good young core could be kept together if players are UFAs after 4 season like players in the NFL?

What a lot of small market fans seem to want is a league in which money doesn't matter. A cap of any sort means that money is always going to be the primary concern with any hockey matter.
Well we wont loose all of our good players because they have become either superstars or they are top tier players, and we cannot afford to pay them anymore.

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12-12-2004, 03:43 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Go Flames Go
Well we wont loose all of our good players because they have become either superstars or they are top tier players, and we cannot afford to pay them anymore.
what players have been traded due to salary demands and then have proven to be worth their price ? i think the fact that teams CANT pay outrageous salaries actually protects them from just that !

Jagr = poor investment for WSH - saved PIT from losing millions more if they had kept him
Bure = poor investment for FLA - saved VAN from losing millions more if they had kept him, not to mention adding Jovo
Mogilny = good investment for NJD and saved VAN from losing millions more if they kept him, not to mention adding Morrison
Yashin = equal poor investment for NYI and netted OTT an all star dman and a blue chip prospect.
Kovalev = poor investment for NYR and saved PIT from losing millions more if they had kept him
Lang = poor investment for WSH and saved PIT from losing millions more if they had kept him.

Seriously, imagine if a cap was in place in the last 5 years. Ok, so PIT in theory could have afforded to resign their own players right ? I mean thats the goal isnt it ?

PIT would have been STUCK with Jagr, Kovalev, Kasperitus, Straka, and Lang until they became UFA because no one would be able to trade anything for them.

How is this good for PIT ? even at fair prices for the above players, PIT couldnt afford them anyway and would not have resigned them all. So why wouldnt they rather have Fleury, Malkin, Orpik, and the other young and cheap players right now. even PIT fans have been very clear they are well positioned financially and with players they arent concerend about PIT's future.

stop wishing for things that dont matter (superstars) and be careful what you wish for.

dr

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