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Old
04-28-2012, 06:29 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by LeafTroll View Post
Yep this, we have a lot of depth but no top end talent (maybe except for Kadri). People really overrate what Burke has done with our prospect pool, I keep hearing about how he turned it from a bottom 10 prospect pool to a top 10, yet I see no one with good top pairing or 1st line potential (Kadri is more of a 2nd line potential player with a small chance of becoming a 1st liner).

EDIT: this excludes Gardiner since his not a prospect anymore.
What Burke has done is made it significantly deeper than most teams, and deeper than we have seen it before, by far. 4 years ago, we had 4-5 players aged 21-24 doing anything at the NHL or AHL level, with just a handful of potential in the CHL, or NCAA or overseas. We awere lucky enough to have some longshot prospects turn out OK

We now have 7-8 really good young players in the NHL, a bunch of potential NHLers in the AHL with decent potential all around the CHL and NCAA with a bit of talent in Europe.

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04-28-2012, 07:21 PM
  #27
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Our prospects really aren't that exciting to be commanding a better rating and ranking.

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04-28-2012, 07:27 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
What Burke has done is made it significantly deeper than most teams, and deeper than we have seen it before, by far. 4 years ago, we had 4-5 players aged 21-24 doing anything at the NHL or AHL level, with just a handful of potential in the CHL, or NCAA or overseas. We awere lucky enough to have some longshot prospects turn out OK
This isn't really true.

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04-28-2012, 08:25 PM
  #29
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The Leafs were at their peak when they had Bozak, Kulemin, Gunnerson, Schenn and Kadri in their system.

One thing I have noticed is the the Leafs tend to give up too early on their NHL prospects. Look around the NHL and you will find a number of productive (not star) NHLers that were top picks with the Leafs.

Stick with your kids!

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04-28-2012, 09:09 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
This isn't really true.
Ok, well sorry about that.

5 years ago, our prospect pool consisted of

22-24 year olds

Matt Stajan
Ian White
Steen
Earle
Cola
Wellwood

The next level was:

Pogge
Strahlman
Tlusty
Oreskovic
Kulemin

With a bunch of long shots:
Frattin, a 4th round pick in college
Reimer a 4th round longshot nobody heard of
Gunnaarson, a 7th rounder nobody heard of

That's about the extend of players 24 and under we had hope for. And a small small list of "prospects"

Now we have a 22-24 year old group that blows that last group out of the water. Kessel alone has outscored that entire group at 24.

It's night and day different.

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04-28-2012, 09:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Ok, well sorry about that.

5 years ago, our prospect pool consisted of

...

It's night and day different.
He's saying that it's not significantly deeper than most prospect pools across the league, and not deeper than the Leafs have seen before.

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04-28-2012, 09:43 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Joseppi View Post
He's saying that it's not significantly deeper than most prospect pools across the league, and not deeper than the Leafs have seen before.
Yes, I heard that too.

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04-28-2012, 09:47 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Ok, well sorry about that.

5 years ago, our prospect pool consisted of

22-24 year olds

Matt Stajan
Ian White
Steen
Earle
Cola
Wellwood

The next level was:

Pogge
Strahlman
Tlusty
Oreskovic
Kulemin

With a bunch of long shots:
Frattin, a 4th round pick in college
Reimer a 4th round longshot nobody heard of
Gunnaarson, a 7th rounder nobody heard of

That's about the extend of players 24 and under we had hope for. And a small small list of "prospects"

Now we have a 22-24 year old group that blows that last group out of the water. Kessel alone has outscored that entire group at 24.

It's night and day different.
I don't necessarily agree. If Colborne, Ashton, McKegg, Olden, Frattin, Leivo Ross, Bigg develop into players who have the impact of a Matt Stajan or Alex Steen, that's already going to be a pretty successful haul. Same if Blacker, Holzer, Percy reach a level of play that resembles the top four role Ian White fills on Detroit. As always, we've lacked those high end talents that make a developmental system worth talking about.

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04-28-2012, 09:56 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I don't necessarily agree. If Colborne, Ashton, McKegg, Olden, Frattin, Leivo Ross, Bigg develop into players who have the impact of a Matt Stajan or Alex Steen, that's already going to be a pretty successful haul. Same if Blacker, Holzer, Percy reach a level of play that resembles the top four role Ian White fills on Detroit. As always, we've lacked those high end talents that make a developmental system worth talking about.
We do miss the high end guys in our system, but the quality and depth will lead to a few surprises, and allow us opportunity to upgrade in the near future.

But I do feel a 24 year old like Kessel, along with Schenn, Kadri, Gardiner, Frattin give us more than the Steen, Welwood, Stajan, White, Bell etc ever did.

Let's just hope the 5th overall pick gives us the impact we want/need.

Justin Schultz would sure help too.

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04-28-2012, 10:02 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I don't necessarily agree. If Colborne, Ashton, McKegg, Olden, Frattin, Leivo Ross, Bigg develop into players who have the impact of a Matt Stajan or Alex Steen, that's already going to be a pretty successful haul. Same if Blacker, Holzer, Percy reach a level of play that resembles the top four role Ian White fills on Detroit. As always, we've lacked those high end talents that make a developmental system worth talking about.
A system doesn't develop elite talent they guide it. Its the lesser prospects you develop and shows the worth of your development system.

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04-28-2012, 10:04 PM
  #36
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The Leafs prospect pool will not be highly rated in this kind of exercise for several reasons:
1. As mentioned several times, the Leafs have good depth of solid prospects but few of the outstanding individual prospects who make top 50 lists. They had a bunch of 30 plus goal scorers in junior but no one in the top ten of scoring of any junior league. On D, the prospect who might have put up the kind of numbers that would get people excited, Percy, was injured much of the season. Some of these kids will make serviceable NHL players but they aren't the kinds of prospects who get on lists like this.

2. A lot of prospect sites and magazines, including Hockeysfuture, are very high draft pick oriented. Somebody who was picked early is much more likely to get rated high. (So are a lot of posters here. When a former top ten pick, who has done very little in the minors, is waived or available for trade, a lot of us get, well, a little excited, to put it politely.) And, of course, the Leafs have traded away many of their high picks over the last few years. No wonder there aren't a number of top 50 ratings.

3. A number of Leaf prospects, including the entire goalie pool, are older FA signings who don't count in this kind of rating system. Scrivens won the equivalent of the Jennings trophy in the AHL but he was a FA signed out of college hockey, who is too old for this ranking. That doesn't mean he isn't a very valuable prospect. Some of the other prospects are later European picks by the excellent Thommie Bergman but they won't show up in this kind of list. I think Holzer is more likely to be an NHL regular than several of the blueliners in the Hockeysfuture top 50.

4. These lists are prepared for entertainment purposes and to get people talking. They're fun. Let's not get bent out of shape about it.

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04-28-2012, 10:05 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Drakkor View Post
A system doesn't develop elite talent they guide it. Its the lesser prospects you develop and shows the worth of your development system.
That's good insight. Thanks

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04-28-2012, 10:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Drakkor View Post
A system doesn't develop elite talent they guide it. Its the lesser prospects you develop and shows the worth of your development system.
Not really. The point is to get better players than everyone else so you arm yourself with the ingredients win a championship. I really don't see the key pieces in our development system that will one day yield a Stanley Cup, which is probably why the rankings are relatively low.

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04-28-2012, 10:07 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
But I do feel a 24 year old like Kessel, along with Schenn, Kadri, Gardiner, Frattin give us more than the Steen, Welwood, Stajan, White, Bell etc ever did.
A guy like Kessel doesn't really count in terms of talking about a developmental system. We got him in a trade and he's a star player, so he's not a prospect.

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04-28-2012, 10:13 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Not really. The point is to get better players than everyone else so you arm yourself with the ingredients win a championship. I really don't see the key pieces in our development system that will one day yield a Stanley Cup, which is probably why the rankings are relatively low.
Some teams climb the NHL standing without the real top end talent, just as some teams stockpile top end talent and never rise in the standings.

When I look at St Louis over the past 10 years, did they ever get the elite talent to make them a top team in the league this year? Not really, they have stockpiled high but not elite talent from top to bottom.

But I have no question they will be a good team sustained over a relatively long period of time.

Now if only we could trade our Stempniak for Steen and Coliacovo.

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04-28-2012, 10:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
A guy like Kessel doesn't really count in terms of talking about a developmental system. We got him in a trade and he's a star player, so he's not a prospect.
I get that, but he's no different on our team now than Stajan, Wellwood, White etc were when they were 23 and 24 years old. He's still a big piece of the future of our team.

I realize this discussion is about "prospect pools" as described by various websites. My personal opinion is to not limit prospects to their definitions. I like to look at players 24 and under.

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04-28-2012, 10:25 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Ok, well sorry about that.

5 years ago, our prospect pool consisted of

22-24 year olds

Matt Stajan
Ian White
Steen

Earle
Cola
Wellwood


The next level was:

Pogge
Strahlman
Tlusty

Oreskovic
Kulemin

With a bunch of long shots:
Frattin, a 4th round pick in college
Reimer a 4th round longshot nobody heard of
Gunnaarson, a 7th rounder nobody heard of

That's about the extend of players 24 and under we had hope for. And a small small list of "prospects"

Now we have a 22-24 year old group that blows that last group out of the water. Kessel alone has outscored that entire group at 24.

It's night and day different.
Bolded the full time NHLers.. That's actually some pretty decent drafting if you think about it.. No high-end talent, which is the ultimate goal I guess, but a lot of serviceable hockey players.

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04-28-2012, 10:38 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
Bolded the full time NHLers.. That's actually some pretty decent drafting if you think about it.. No high-end talent, which is the ultimate goal I guess, but a lot of serviceable hockey players.
I agree, but at the time, 6 or 7 of them had already been in the NHL, and some were already 23-24 years old and hadn't contributed much.

With Kessel, Frattin, Schenn, Gardiner, Franson, Reimer, we can already predict higher upside based on Kessel alone.

Add in 6-7 on the bubble (Kadri, Colborne, Ashton, Holzer, Blacker, Scrivens, Owuya)

And I also see an NHL role for Devane, Ross, Percy and Biggs.

And I've avoided names like Ryan, D'Amigo, Deschamps, Leivo, Mckegg, Mueller and badass MacWilliams.

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04-28-2012, 10:46 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post

With Kessel, Frattin, Schenn, Gardiner, Franson, Reimer, we can already predict higher upside based on Kessel alone.
Kessel is already what he is, he isn't a prospect any more than Jonathan Toews or Sidney Crosby. Neither is Franson. And neither is Schenn. And Reimer isn't a prospect either.

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04-28-2012, 10:52 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Kessel is already what he is, he isn't a prospect any more than Jonathan Toews or Sidney Crosby. Neither is Franson. And neither is Schenn. And Reimer isn't a prospect either.
Toews, Crosby, and other top young players are all a significant part of their teams future. Just as Kessel, Franson, Schenn etc are part of the Leafs future. I'm OK with others defining prospects differently than I do, it's just my opinion.

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04-28-2012, 11:19 PM
  #46
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Ross is just one prospect. It tends to look at the quality at the top picks so guys like Nino, Strome etc would get more hype even though other systems may have more depth. It ignores Kadri, Scrivens, Owuya, Colborne, Gardiner, Holzner. Besides the moron from hockey news said if the draft was redone again Gardiner would be a 2nd round pick because he didn't make the NHL prior to this. I really don't care about the Hockey News, it's a flawed system.
I have to agree.

Gardiner should have made the NHL while he was still in school.

What a bust!

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04-28-2012, 11:33 PM
  #47
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Of course Holzer and Frattin were assets before Burke arrived, so they have to be included with the Stalberg, Kulemin, Steen, Stajan, Tlusty, Reimer, Colaiacovo, Gunnarsson, Johnny Malkin, and Stralman prospects that became NHL players.

Burke has brought in Gardiner, Gustavsson and Bozak who have become NHL players. I must be missing someone in this large list?

Much, much too soon to say the prospect pool is any better because prospects worth is based on ... if they don't make the NHL does it matter how pretty they look with the Marlies?

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04-28-2012, 11:35 PM
  #48
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You can make an argument that we have a bottom 5 farm system in the league. We have Kadri and then we have guys who we can only hope will make the NHL at some point.

We're all gonna be laughing about how we thought we had a good prospect pool in the future. It's nice to see Doug Hamilton is developing at a far better rate than any prospect we've had in years.

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04-28-2012, 11:39 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Toews, Crosby, and other top young players are all a significant part of their teams future. Just as Kessel, Franson, Schenn etc are part of the Leafs future. I'm OK with others defining prospects differently than I do, it's just my opinion.
We're talking about actual prospect rankings, as in young players who haven't established themselves as full timers in the NHL. There's no reason to bend the definition to encompass more players for a 'favourable' comparison.

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04-28-2012, 11:52 PM
  #50
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We know what we have.

A grade-A prospect in Gardiner, and then after that a lot of "decent" but not great prospects.

It's a decent pool, and much stronger than it was when Burke got here - but it's still not outstanding compared to the other teams.

Perfect example - do the Leafs have any prospect that could rival a Brayden Schenn or a Sean Couterier?

NOTE - Just because you, as a Leafs fan, can name many Leafs prospects, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Leafs have a deep Leafs prospect pool. It just means that you are highly familiar with what the Leafs have in the system. I think some people get excited that they can name prospects, and stupidly think that because of that, the Leafs have this unbelievable prospect pool

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