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04-28-2012, 11:55 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Darkness View Post
You can make an argument that we have a bottom 5 farm system in the league. We have Kadri and then we have guys who we can only hope will make the NHL at some point.

We're all gonna be laughing about how we thought we had a good prospect pool in the future. It's nice to see Doug Hamilton is developing at a far better rate than any prospect we've had in years.
I fully agree with this.

There are good pieces in the system right now - I don't think it's just Kadri and then NOTHING. I think Kadri is apart of a handful of prospects down there that might come good. But largely on the whole, I don't think we have much down there.

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04-28-2012, 11:55 PM
  #52
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We're talking about actual prospect rankings, as in young players who haven't established themselves as full timers in the NHL. There's no reason to bend the definition to encompass more players for a 'favourable' comparison.
I'm pretty sure I covered that above. I'll reiterate. Rating prospects is a useless activity. If Colton Teubert is Edmonton's 11th rated prospect, but Taylor Hall, and Jordan Eberle are not prospects, it means nothing to the future of the club.

If you want to rate a clubs potential in the future, rate the younger players, not just those not playing full time in the NHL.

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04-29-2012, 12:05 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
NOTE - Just because you, as a Leafs fan, can name many Leafs prospects, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Leafs have a deep Leafs prospect pool. It just means that you are highly familiar with what the Leafs have in the system. I think some people get excited that they can name prospects, and stupidly think that because of that, the Leafs have this unbelievable prospect pool
Hogwash. If someone was naming all the 6th and 7th round picks and considering them bluechippers, you scream ignorance all you want. When someone knows players who have met or exceeded what was already a decent draft position, or taken on strong leadership roles, or taken the next step in development, you can chalk it up to knowledge.

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04-29-2012, 12:10 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Hogwash. If someone was naming all the 6th and 7th round picks and considering them bluechippers, you scream ignorance all you want. When someone knows players who have met or exceeded what was already a decent draft position, or taken on strong leadership roles, or taken the next step in development, you can chalk it up to knowledge.
Not really. The prospects that get used as examples of Burke's great building really aren't that remarkable in development at this point. Not to say that they won't turn into anything in the future, but you can't really declare a Greg McKegg or his ilk to be much of a success when you have teams around the league who are pulling Devante Smith-Pelly or Justin Faulk out of the same draft who are NHLers. Guys like McKegg only look better to this point than prospects from the past because we don't know how they will turn out.

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04-29-2012, 12:12 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I'm pretty sure I covered that above. I'll reiterate. Rating prospects is a useless activity. If Colton Teubert is Edmonton's 11th rated prospect, but Taylor Hall, and Jordan Eberle are not prospects, it means nothing to the future of the club.

If you want to rate a clubs potential in the future, rate the younger players, not just those not playing full time in the NHL.
The problem with that, is that it's almost impossible to rate players who are not playing in the NHL, on how they will fair in the NHL.

I see that stupid ticker at the top of hfboards, showing prospect lists, and it's an arbitrary list. Based on assumption and opinion.

You can't judge anyone other than those that have played in the NHL.

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04-29-2012, 12:12 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I'm pretty sure I covered that above. I'll reiterate. Rating prospects is a useless activity. If Colton Teubert is Edmonton's 11th rated prospect, but Taylor Hall, and Jordan Eberle are not prospects, it means nothing to the future of the club.

If you want to rate a clubs potential in the future, rate the younger players, not just those not playing full time in the NHL.
It might be a meaningless exercise, but it's a very specific criteria when you're talking about prospects and not the future of a club. It's a specific aspect of the future.

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04-29-2012, 12:17 AM
  #57
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I detest (for the lack of a better word) it when people say that our prospects were this: X, Y, Z and now they are this: A, B, C.

All that has changed is the name. You can't be serious if you knew that Stralman, Pogge, Tlustly wouldn't reach their potential. People were high on these prospects.

A few years from now we could all be mentioning Kadri (just using an example, I think highly of him) as a bust and mention a new shiny player and say he'll be better.

Nobody knows the future. IMO our prospect pool has a lot of depth that wasn't there before but it isn't SIGNIFICANTLY better like some people feel it is.

If we can come out with guys similar to Kulemin, Frattin, Reimer etc we should be glad.

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04-29-2012, 12:19 AM
  #58
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I fully agree with this.

There are good pieces in the system right now - I don't think it's just Kadri and then NOTHING. I think Kadri is apart of a handful of prospects down there that might come good. But largely on the whole, I don't think we have much down there.
I believe we have the pieces to have homegrown talent up and down our line-up in a few years. We have work to do to fill the top line, nobody denies that.

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04-29-2012, 12:23 AM
  #59
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we're not getting any results yet because we really didn't start drafting (consider rebuilding) until 2008 and 2009. Unlikely those picks would make any impact right now. Look at the Bruins, obviously Bergeron and Lucic were exceptions, but guys like Marchand (2006-didn't play till last year), Krecji (2004-4 years to be a full year roster player) had some development time. I really don't care what the rankings tell us. All it matters what they do in the NHL.

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04-29-2012, 12:24 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Hogwash. If someone was naming all the 6th and 7th round picks and considering them bluechippers, you scream ignorance all you want. When someone knows players who have met or exceeded what was already a decent draft position, or taken on strong leadership roles, or taken the next step in development, you can chalk it up to knowledge.
Keep drinking the koolaid then, mate, if you think this prospect pool matches up to the rest of the leagues.

In my opinion, it doesn't. A few secondary pieces, maybe one or two primary pieces, but that's it.

This fan base has ZERO concept of how to rate a prospect.

For example - many people have implied that Holzer is NHL ready, and yet is our 10th rated prospect?

Yeah - way to go.

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04-29-2012, 12:27 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
Keep drinking the koolaid then, mate, if you think this prospect pool matches up to the rest of the leagues.

In my opinion, it doesn't. A few secondary pieces, maybe one or two primary pieces, but that's it.

This fan base has ZERO concept of how to rate a prospect.

For example - many people have implied that Holzer is NHL ready, and yet is our 10th rated prospect?

Yeah - way to go.
I agree with most of what you've said but you don't have to be a top 5 prospect to be ready for the NHL.

Rankings are based on potential more so than NHL readiness. Holzer could be ready for the NHL but his potential probably isn't much more than that of a #4-6 hard hitting defensive d-man.

Holzer was drafted in 06. If he isn't ready now, chances are he never will be.

Brian Burke, Dalles Eakins, Poulin etc all think that Holzer is ready. If Schenn struggles next year, Holzer will get his opportunity to shine.

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04-29-2012, 12:31 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Beezle View Post
we're not getting any results yet because we really didn't start drafting (consider rebuilding) until 2008 and 2009. Unlikely those picks would make any impact right now. Look at the Bruins, obviously Bergeron and Lucic were exceptions, but guys like Marchand (2006-didn't play till last year), Krecji (2004-4 years to be a full year roster player) had some development time. I really don't care what the rankings tell us. All it matters what they do in the NHL.
What do you mean? We got Gunnarsson and Frattin out of 2007. And Reimer and Kulemin out of 2006, with Tlusty looking decent in Carolina now and Stalberg looking good in Chicago. It's a total myth that Burke came here and there was no talent in the system. In terms of Colborne, Ashton, Leivo, McKegg, Olden, Percy, Biggs, Ross, etc. I don't see that qualitative change in our prospect pool at all. It's not like we're suddenly rolling in bluechippers like Granlund, Taranseko, Kuznetsov etc who are setting the minors on fire.

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04-29-2012, 12:32 AM
  #63
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Not really. The prospects that get used as examples of Burke's great building really aren't that remarkable in development at this point. Not to say that they won't turn into anything in the future, but you can't really declare a Greg McKegg or his ilk to be much of a success when you have teams around the league who are pulling Devante Smith-Pelly or Justin Faulk out of the same draft who are NHLers. Guys like McKegg only look better to this point than prospects from the past because we don't know how they will turn out.
McKegg's development has been relatively stagnant. But he's doing well for a late birthday 3rd round pick. But he's well down the Leafs depth chart.

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04-29-2012, 12:44 AM
  #64
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Not really. The point is to get better players than everyone else so you arm yourself with the ingredients win a championship. I really don't see the key pieces in our development system that will one day yield a Stanley Cup, which is probably why the rankings are relatively low.
The key pieces are drafted not developed. IMO. You don't develop them. They are not taught to be key pieces unless they are filling bottom 6 positions. Shutting down the other teams top lines. You don't develop a Crosby you guide him to be a more complete player. But if he chooses not to he'll still be in the NHL. Has he really developed.

Development to me is players that wouldn't if left to their own devices become NHL players. Their are plenty of players through out the league around the world that are more skilled then those within the NHL not elite mind you but sjkilled that never made it. Some for commitment issues others never directed properly.

Development of the lower tier/bottom six is the most important because you can't teach skill.

( a little drunk. Hope that makes sense)

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04-29-2012, 12:52 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
When I look at St Louis over the past 10 years, did they ever get the elite talent to make them a top team in the league this year? Not really, they have stockpiled high but not elite talent from top to bottom.
did you miss petro? 4th overall was among the best NHL defensemen this season probably had alot to do with the rise of St. Louis

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04-29-2012, 12:56 AM
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did you miss petro? 4th overall was among the best NHL defensemen this season probably had alot to do with the rise of St. Louis
I didn't miss him at all.

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04-29-2012, 01:13 AM
  #67
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Keep drinking the koolaid then, mate, if you think this prospect pool matches up to the rest of the leagues.

In my opinion, it doesn't. A few secondary pieces, maybe one or two primary pieces, but that's it.

This fan base has ZERO concept of how to rate a prospect.

For example - many people have implied that Holzer is NHL ready, and yet is our 10th rated prospect?

Yeah - way to go.
I'm not so appreciative of my opinion being blamed on drug laced fruit beverage.

If you don't want to discuss like an adult, I won't discuss with you.

#civility

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04-29-2012, 10:57 AM
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did you miss petro? 4th overall was among the best NHL defensemen this season probably had alot to do with the rise of St. Louis
That's the funny thing about fan bases, they only see their own and seldom other teams prospects so are compared in a vacuum unto themselves within an organization rather than the big picture NHL overall.

Alex Pietrangelo is 22 years old, was 5th overall in NHL scoring per Dmen with 12 goals and 51 points in only his 2nd NHL season.

Just to put Petro's stats in context Kessel at age 22 as a forward put up 55 points in comparison. Leafs best dman statistically Phaneuf put up 12 goals and 44 points this year.

If Jake Gardiner would put up Alex Petro numbers next year as a 22 year old in his 2nd season that would be nothing short of outstanding accomplishment. Gardiner put up 7-23-30 points in his rookie season while AP had 11-32-43 points in his.

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04-29-2012, 10:59 AM
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I didn't miss him at all.
Pietrangelo is pretty elite when you consider his Norris Trophy potential.

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04-29-2012, 11:10 AM
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I agree with most of what you've said but you don't have to be a top 5 prospect to be ready for the NHL.

Rankings are based on potential more so than NHL readiness. Holzer could be ready for the NHL but his potential probably isn't much more than that of a #4-6 hard hitting defensive d-man.

Holzer was drafted in 06. If he isn't ready now, chances are he never will be.

Brian Burke, Dalles Eakins, Poulin etc all think that Holzer is ready. If Schenn struggles next year, Holzer will get his opportunity to shine.
Agreed fully.

Holzer is a 24 year old Dman that has recorded 1 goal and 20 points in the AHL..

So being ready to step into a bottom pairing role at the NHL level based on age and expected contribution as a depth player doesn't make him or Leafs prospect pool itself increase in value.

Every team produces depth players from its own prospect pool and in a Cap World its even more essential because you need cheaper talent to offset your stars and large cap hits when trying to ice competitive teams.

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04-29-2012, 11:36 AM
  #71
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Not really. The prospects that get used as examples of Burke's great building really aren't that remarkable in development at this point. Not to say that they won't turn into anything in the future, but you can't really declare a Greg McKegg or his ilk to be much of a success when you have teams around the league who are pulling Devante Smith-Pelly or Justin Faulk out of the same draft who are NHLers. Guys like McKegg only look better to this point than prospects from the past because we don't know how they will turn out.
Very good point. Its easy to say our prospects are better now when in all honesty we have no clue if players like McKegg will go further than the kids a few years back.

That being said... Burke has made this team much younger instead of bring in mediocre old fill ins like past GMs have. We still do not know how gunnar, schenn, franson, gardiner, etc will turn out but all of these guys are still getting better.. (at least we hope). We may not have an the high end youth that other teams have but we do have some potentially exciting prospects. If we can turn a few of the higher pick guys into great players (kadri, 5th this year, future trade for young guys) i think the prospect depth (colbourne, mckegg, ross, olden, blackler, others) will help fill the botton 9 and allow for some success.

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04-29-2012, 11:37 AM
  #72
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What constitutes a high rating?

How many high-end prospects you have? The links didn't lead to organizational rankings but I remember seeing them before.

I remember the grade and then 1-3 names after.

Would a team with 1-2 very exceptional players and not much else receive a better rating than a team with 2-3 very good players spread over different positions and maybe 2-3 good players showing very good potential.

If this is just measuring overall elite talent and not all talent then I have a hard time putting any stock in it.

While we don;t have that 1 or 2 players doing amazing we do have a coolection of a bunch of real good players doing some amazing things. WE don't have the guarantees like other team but we have a lot of possbility and potential. While it is quality over quantity sometimes I wonder if these rankings favour a lack of quanity but a few very good quality over a quantity of quality but lack of few with good quality, if that makes any sense. A $100 bill is the same as 5 $20's no matter how you look at it.

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04-29-2012, 12:06 PM
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What constitutes a high rating?

How many high-end prospects you have? The links didn't lead to organizational rankings but I remember seeing them before.

Would a team with 1-2 very exceptional players and not much else receive a better rating than a team with 2-3 very good players spread over different positions and maybe 2-3 good players showing very good potential.

If this is just measuring overall elite talent and not all talent then I have a hard time putting any stock in it.

While we don;t have that 1 or 2 players doing amazing we do have a collection of a bunch of real good players doing some amazing things. WE don't have the guarantees like other team but we have a lot of possibility and potential. While it is quality over quantity sometimes I wonder if these rankings favour a lack of quantity but a few very good quality over a quantity of quality but lack of few with good quality, if that makes any sense. A $100 bill is the same as 5 $20's no matter how you look at it.
When comparing all 30 teams you will find many/most organizations have average level II or level III prospects showing potential that will with development fill future NHL depth roles for their organizations. Every team participates in the NHL draft and makes selections in various rounds that add to their prospect pools and potential future NHL team.

Since all teams have a varying degree of these types of players, its then the high-end talent in the prospect pools that separates the cream of the crop in the overall rankings as its those players that are believed to have the greatest future impact on NHL teams success going forward.

Look at the prospect pool like you would say if you were entering a hockey pool. Would you rather have the Crosby, Malkin, Giroux type players or the average NHLers intstead. .

You can even take that same point to an NHL entry draft .. Take 2008 draft would you rather have dman Drew Doughty (#2 overall), or Alex Pietrangelo (#4 overall) or Luke Schenn (#5 overall)? How about 2009 and would you take John Tavaras, Matt Duchene and Evander Kane over Nazem Kadri? In 2010 would you prefer Taylor Hall or Tyler Sequin or Jeff Skinner to Leafs Brad Ross (2nd round #43 overall in comparison of prospects improving teams prospect systems. In 2011 Edmonton adds RNH, Colorado adds Landeskog, Phily Sean Couturier and Leafs add Tyler Biggs

So you can see why other organizations are ranked higher than the Leafs in the rankings because of the impact their prospects/young players have/will have in comparison.

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04-29-2012, 12:45 PM
  #74
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When comparing all 30 teams you will find many/most organizations have average level II or level III prospects showing potential that will with development fill future NHL depth roles for their organizations. Every team participates in the NHL draft and makes selections in various rounds that add to their prospect pools and potential future NHL team.

Since all teams have a varying degree of these types of players, its then the high-end talent in the prospect pools that separates the cream of the crop in the overall rankings as its those players that are believed to have the greatest future impact on NHL teams success going forward.

Look at the prospect pool like you would say if you were entering a hockey pool. Would you rather have the Crosby, Malkin, Giroux type players or the average NHLers intstead. .

You can even take that same point to an NHL entry draft .. Take 2008 draft would you rather have dman Drew Doughty (#2 overall), or Alex Pietrangelo (#4 overall) or Luke Schenn (#5 overall)? How about 2009 and would you take John Tavaras, Matt Duchene and Evander Kane over Nazem Kadri? In 2010 would you prefer Taylor Hall or Tyler Sequin or Jeff Skinner to Leafs Brad Ross (2nd round #43 overall in comparison of prospects improving teams prospect systems. In 2011 Edmonton adds RNH, Colorado adds Landeskog, Phily Sean Couturier and Leafs add Tyler Biggs

So you can see why other organizations are ranked higher than the Leafs in the rankings because of the impact their prospects/young players have/will have in comparison.
I think it is a very good time right now for Marlies fans. Even the future of the Marlies looks good.

Personally I'd love to see the Marlies pool of good young players suffer ... I'd be much more excited if the Leafs could draft someone like Skinner or Burnistrov or Fowler or Kane or Couturier, someone with enough talent, drive and coachability to move from Junior to the NHL.

I wouldn't even mind seeing some talented prospect ready after a year of pro-development and not come with baggage. Good talent with good character would be nice. Can you imagine have a top talent that doesn't come with huge red flags? Wow, that would be something to crow about.

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04-29-2012, 12:50 PM
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I think it is a very good time right now for Marlies fans. Even the future of the Marlies looks good.

Personally I'd love to see the Marlies pool of good young players suffer ... I'd be much more excited if the Leafs could draft someone like Skinner or Burnistrov or Fowler or Kane or Couturier, someone with enough talent, drive and coachability to move from Junior to the NHL.

I wouldn't even mind seeing some talented prospect ready after a year of pro-development and not come with baggage. Good talent with good character would be nice. Can you imagine have a top talent that doesn't come with huge red flags? Wow, that would be something to crow about.
We should get some good talent possible in this draft, so I am willing to wait and see.

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