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Nordic League?

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07-01-2013, 09:42 AM
  #1
Muuri
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Nordic League?

Instead of joining KHL, I think we Finns and Swedes should work together. Let say league would be made up of 12 teams from Finland, 12 teams from Sweden, 1 from Norway and 1 from Denmark. SM-Liiga would serve as the eastern conference of the league, while SHL+teams from Denmark and Norway would the western conference. If the league does well, it can be expanted to Germany, Switzerland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, making it an European League.

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07-01-2013, 09:59 AM
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I've said it in several threads, I love the idea. There is actually somewhat of a natural rivalry with finnish clubs even if we don't know much about them. And hey, at least we can read the names of the clubs. I wouldn't even mind of the 12 Swedish 12 Finnish and whatever norwegian and danish teams becomes somekind of conference in the KHL. But the problem at least in Sweden would be that after the conference finals or whatever, people wouldn't care anymore, so I guess there is little point of that.

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07-01-2013, 10:17 AM
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You need at least 2 thing to happen

1) will, support among clubs
2) money

You have none of them.

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07-01-2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
You need at least 2 thing to happen

1) will, support among clubs
2) money

You have none of them.
So, SHL doesn't have that much money, but it's still around? How come? Why would we need NHL money to run a nordic league? You bring up the same argument all the time, and by that ridiculous logic, there should not be many leagues running.

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07-01-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
You need at least 2 thing to happen

1) will, support among clubs
2) money

You have none of them.
Yeah sure.. wait.. Even thought I don't dislike Jokerit joining KHL I will want to stay honest. We in Finland and Sweden don't have idiots or call them what you like who make negative-profit business like Russian charity guys, but we have two strong euro leagues, whose teams actually make profit mostly and are stand alone, not just sponsored. Both countries are more attractive to be sportsman and live in than Russia.

This would be great, def better and stronger than to have two separate leagues. There is alot of talk about this in Finland board, so I'll paste on of my opinion from there to here too.

It would be worth conversation, if both countries want to keep their hockey western, should the league be played in NHL rink, maybe with NHL rule book also. Both countries have lots of NHL fans, they would appreciate it and rest would realize how good it is later. Rules could force you at least to choose between 26-27,5m so teams would have some room making little tweak but lining out the 30m IIHF airports. In finnish league, I dislike the airport rinks, like the smaller ones better. It would make our young players adjust better for NHL and maybe being more north american style league, it would even raise their value in the draft a bit compared to players from other Euro leagues. It would make it really to be different from KHL and other euro leagues and not just worse version of KHL, but something fresh and cool. Something done with high standards of quality, close to us and in prime time: Nordic Hockey League.


Last edited by QnebO: 07-01-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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07-01-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by QnebO View Post
Yeah sure.. wait.. Even thought I don't dislike Jokerit joining KHL I will want to stay honest. We in Finland and Sweden don't have idiots or call them what you like who make negative-profit business like Russian charity guys, but we have two strong euro leagues. Both countries are more attractive to be sportsman and live in than Russia.

This would be great, def better and stronger than to have two separate leagues. There is alot of talk about this in Finland board, so I'll paste on of my opinion from there to here too.

It would be worth conversation, if both countries want to keep their hockey western, should the league be played in NHL rink, maybe with NHL rule book also. Both countries have lots of NHL fans, they would appreciate it and rest would realize how good it is later. Rules could force you at least to choose between 26-27,5m so teams would have some room making little tweak but lining out the 30m IIHF airports. In finnish league, I dislike the airport rinks, like the smaller ones better. It would make our young players adjust better for NHL and maybe being more north american style league, it would even raise their value in the draft a bit compared to players from other Euro leagues. It would make it really to be different from KHL and other euro leagues and not just worse version of KHL, but something fresh and cool. Something done with high standards of quality, close to us and in prime time: Nordic Hockey League.
I respect it and I have never said "idiots or so". If money is not a problem, the will/support among clubs is missing. Or not?? Some Finns here, maybe you (I dont remember), admit that the "will" is a problem.

Lets be fair each other. This is a hard-ball. Russians will do everything to stop any nordic/euro/ET league project which is not under KHL´ś control. Think about it, is not weird that Kummola said: it is good for international development to have Jokerit in KHL (website of IIHF). Crazy! Vice-president of IIHF and head of finnish hockey said THIS? Yes, he is on "KHL-side", the same like Fasel. Russians have money, they can lure Kärpät, HIFK, etc to play KHL. They can say them (especially to IFK): Look, we have Jokerit, do you want to miss the derby? Dont you have money? Ok, we give them to you! Why did Jokerit move to KHL if there is a huge chance of great euro/ET/nordic league? Or is not? Like it or not, but SM-Liiga (its clubs) are under KHL control now. Jokerit jumped, others can do it later.

I understand you, you want your local derby, league with Swedes. I have no idea what ppl are running finnish/swedish hockey, but if they are the same as those here in CZ/Slovakia, you will have no Nordic league. There was discussion about common czech-slovak league since 1993, for 15 or so yrs. Slovaks did some attempts, but Czech always said NO. So, Slovan joined to KHL, because the club wanted to play international games, have more chances to develop. Yes, Slovan was against KHL, wanted euro/czech-slovak league instead. To be honest, I can see the same scenario with Jokerit/Nordic league... or not?

I wish finnish hockey all best, on the other hand I can see the "details" of hockey-politics (especially KHL´s) .. or I am totally wrong and you wast time if you discuss with me. I just want to remind you that I claimed since late 2012 that finnish KHL club is matter of time. Honestly, I was suprised with the "speed"

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07-01-2013, 12:44 PM
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I still think a nordic league would just be like a more permanent nordic trophy. I wager many would think the bottom swedish teams should still make playoffs before top finnish teams
We seen how much interest euro trophy gets meaning adding some finnish teams would best case scenario be a lateral move.
It would be elitserien but with some extra games at the end of the season.

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07-01-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dosing View Post
I still think a nordic league would just be like a more permanent nordic trophy. I wager many would think the bottom swedish teams should still make playoffs before top finnish teams
We seen how much interest euro trophy gets meaning adding some finnish teams would best case scenario be a lateral move.
It would be elitserien but with some extra games at the end of the season.
That's why there would have to be at least 1 game against every finnish team too.

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07-01-2013, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Lets be fair each other. This is a hard-ball. Russians will do everything to stop any nordic/euro/ET league project which is not under KHL´ś control. Think about it, is not weird that Kummola said: it is good for international development to have Jokerit in KHL (website of IIHF). Crazy! Vice-president of IIHF and head of finnish hockey said THIS? Yes, he is on "KHL-side", the same like Fasel. Russians have money, they can lure Kärpät, HIFK, etc to play KHL. They can say them (especially to IFK): Look, we have Jokerit, do you want to miss the derby? Dont you have money? Ok, we give them to you! Why did Jokerit move to KHL if there is a huge chance of great euro/ET/nordic league? Or is not? Like it or not, but SM-Liiga (its clubs) are under KHL control now. Jokerit jumped, others can do it later.
It´s nice to see that you have drop that BS about NHL evil, KHL good and how the KHL give millions of money to Finnish teams from their players. Yes it´s hardball.

One Russian league team in Finnish market is big thing. Other teams are in constant fear that who is the next one to took the money and run. And more than one team in Finnish market would mean huge money loss to other Finnish teams and would jeopardize the whole Finnish hockey product. At that point Russian league would have even stronger hold on Finnish clubs.

But the problem is that you can not expand uncontrollably. The quality of the game suffers if there are not enough quality players (obviously). And this is not going to be a easy product to sell to Finnish hockey fans even now. And when KHL is runned by strong national interest by Russia they aren´t going to give their franchises to the other countries so I don´t see that there would be large expansion to Finland.

To the Nordic league thing. That boat has sailed. With this strong KHL there isn´t too much hope for it.


Last edited by Sanf: 07-01-2013 at 03:48 PM. Reason: brainfart removed :)
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07-01-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
That's why there would have to be at least 1 game against every finnish team too.
Ok and how would your relegation system work? Because there could be some pretty uneven competition. There would definitely be some angry allsvenskan teams if the finnish teams can't cut it. And if the swedish teams and visa versa could take the finnish teams spots we're back at the lateral move as in elitserien only now with more swedish teams. Over 20.
And if for example only 2 finnish teams stays up that would mean many finnish teams with alot less money for their programs. The small teams needs the big teams to stay in the game so to speak. A nordic league would mean the rich gets richer and the poor stays poor, it's the same misstake the russians are doing. We're better then that.

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07-01-2013, 03:46 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
You need at least 2 thing to happen

1) will, support among clubs
2) money

You have none of them.
Seriously. What do you know about it?

1) There is will among clubs. Just no balls to go through with it (at least from Sweden), yet.

2) What money do we not have in Sweden and Finland that will stop a possible joint league? We have money in Sweden to run our league. There is money in Finland to run their league. A joint league would increase the revenue. Two markets instead of one. Believe me, that would cover trips over the see. Developing Swedish and Finish club hockey is about extending the market.

You are blowing smoke from your ass.

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07-01-2013, 03:50 PM
  #12
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Ok and how would your relegation system work? Because there could be some pretty uneven competition. There would definitely be some angry allsvenskan teams if the finnish teams can't cut it. And if the swedish teams and visa versa could take the finnish teams spots we're back at the lateral move as in elitserien only now with more swedish teams. Over 20.
And if for example only 2 finnish teams stays up that would mean many finnish teams with alot less money for their programs. The small teams needs the big teams to stay in the game so to speak. A nordic league would mean the rich gets richer and the poor stays poor, it's the same misstake the russians are doing. We're better then that.
Why? Swedish teams compete to play in the top Swedish division - just like today. There's no difference. Of course a Swedish team could not take a Finish spot in the Finish division and vice versa.

And about the poor vs rich. How is it today? We share the league revenue today and would do that in a joint league as well. It would work exactly the same as today.

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07-01-2013, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Lets be fair each other. This is a hard-ball. Russians will do everything to stop any nordic/euro/ET league project which is not under KHL´ś control. Think about it, is not weird that Kummola said: it is good for international development to have Jokerit in KHL (website of IIHF). Crazy! Vice-president of IIHF and head of finnish hockey said THIS? Yes, he is on "KHL-side", the same like Fasel. Russians have money, they can lure Kärpät, HIFK, etc to play KHL. They can say them (especially to IFK): Look, we have Jokerit, do you want to miss the derby? Dont you have money? Ok, we give them to you! Why did Jokerit move to KHL if there is a huge chance of great euro/ET/nordic league? Or is not? Like it or not, but SM-Liiga (its clubs) are under KHL control now. Jokerit jumped, others can do it later.
You do know that in the end a club (and in the end a league as well) some how needs to carry itself. "Oil money" is nice but I hope that even you understand that it's not something that will last. KHL cannot invite team after team since the local markets in both Sweden and Finland are not that big outside the capitols.

And still. Even if you get two Helsinki teams and two Stockholm teams, there are still two leagues (one in Sweden and one in Finland) with over 20 teams that has to do something to move forward and develop the leagues. Or are you trying to tell us that the KHL aims to destroy the domestic leagues? Good luck with that.

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07-01-2013, 04:20 PM
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Why? Swedish teams compete to play in the top Swedish division - just like today. There's no difference. Of course a Swedish team could not take a Finish spot in the Finish division and vice versa.

And about the poor vs rich. How is it today? We share the league revenue today and would do that in a joint league as well. It would work exactly the same as today.
The point is if there are more swedish teams of higher quality or visa versa allsvenskan teams will get snubbed pretty hard. It would be like half swedens good teams in one league getting all the attention (i doubt it would though, but if) and the other half in a league with almost none while the other sides half of the "higher" league has worse competition then the top of the other sides "lower" league. And i think you missed the point about poor vs rich aswell. Either country needs the bigger teams to help the smaller teams income/competition. If there would be a few big teams from one country in the league it would mean many smaller ones in the domestic league that doesn't have anyone to hold them up. Meaning less money/opportunity for developing resulting in only a few teams in the entire country that develops depth = Bad for hockey in general. It could also have a domino effect. If the regions with smaller teams have less success hockey will become less popular which spreads to the regions were the sport is more popular and the people there start caring less even if their team does have success.

The best scenario for swedish hockey growing would be all divisions being very close in quality. What do you think would happen if the bigger teams make their own party and say "**** you" to the rest?


Last edited by Dosing: 07-01-2013 at 04:26 PM.
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07-01-2013, 05:09 PM
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It´s nice to see that you have drop that BS about NHL evil, KHL good and how the KHL give millions of money to Finnish teams from their players. Yes it´s hardball.

One Russian league team in Finnish market is big thing. Other teams are in constant fear that who is the next one to took the money and run. And more than one team in Finnish market would mean huge money loss to other Finnish teams and would jeopardize the whole Finnish hockey product. At that point Russian league would have even stronger hold on Finnish clubs.

But the problem is that you can not expand uncontrollably. The quality of the game suffers if there are not enough quality players (obviously). And this is not going to be a easy product to sell to Finnish hockey fans even now. And when KHL is runned by strong national interest by Russia they aren´t going to give their franchises to the other countries so I don´t see that there would be large expansion to Finland.

To the Nordic league thing. That boat has sailed. With this strong KHL there isn´t too much hope for it.
Interesting post. It is all about money, we all know it.

I have said for months that finnish KHL team is a matter of time. To be honest, I was still suprised by "behaviour of Jokerit". The way how they announce it - we are joining KHL, nobody stops us, like it or not. That is an important message, KHL started to play hard-ball.

I can imagine there is a mess among finnish clubs, some of them prefer ET (Champions league with current domestic leagues), others nordic league with Swedes, one or two teams want KHL. This mess is a situation which KHL needs .. no unity within Finland. There is Sweden next door. Are we sure that all swedish clubs are united? All of them want Nordic league? As I follow it, they have problem among relegation formula among SHL/Allsvenskan. I read interview of president of swedish federation that they will develop SHL in future. Remember, you need to launch Nordic League within a year or two. If you dont do it, more and more finnish (maybe swedish??) clubs will be pro-KHL because they will see no future in euro-league project (like Harkimo said).

Media will be very important in this "finnish mess". I can imagine, you will read about great Jokerit´s route in KHL, and Jokerit everywhere and everytime. At least, this has happened in Czech rep and Slovakia.

icing
OK man, I read your replies.

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07-01-2013, 05:32 PM
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Interesting post. It is all about money, we all know it.

I have said for months that finnish KHL team is a matter of time. To be honest, I was still suprised by "behaviour of Jokerit". The way how they announce it - we are joining KHL, nobody stops us, like it or not. That is an important message, KHL started to play hard-ball.

I can imagine there is a mess among finnish clubs, some of them prefer ET (Champions league with current domestic leagues), others nordic league with Swedes, one or two teams want KHL. This mess is a situation which KHL needs .. no unity within Finland. There is Sweden next door. Are we sure that all swedish clubs are united? All of them want Nordic league? As I follow it, they have problem among relegation formula among SHL/Allsvenskan. I read interview of president of swedish federation that they will develop SHL in future. Remember, you need to launch Nordic League within a year or two. If you dont do it, more and more finnish (maybe swedish??) clubs will be pro-KHL because they will see no future in euro-league project (like Harkimo said).

Media will be very important in this "finnish mess". I can imagine, you will read about great Jokerit´s route in KHL, and Jokerit everywhere and everytime. At least, this has happened in Czech rep and Slovakia.

icing
OK man, I read your replies.

Are you gonna stop being bitter at some point and accept the fact that no one here cares about your favorite league? "united" or not And if your leagues shady businessmen tries anything illegal here they get handled as such, we are pretty strict about laws here in sweden

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07-01-2013, 05:45 PM
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Are you gonna stop being bitter at some point and accept the fact that no one here cares about your favorite league? "united" or not And if your leagues shady businessmen tries anything illegal here they get handled as such, we are pretty strict about laws here in sweden
I say what reality is. I dont say I like it.

Quote:
"united" or not
I dont know man. I think it is important to be united if you want to create Nordic League or so. You will not have any Nordic League if some swedish clubs are against, or Finns are against. Simple. Honestly, I can not see this "unity"

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07-01-2013, 05:50 PM
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I dont know man. I think it is important to be united if you want to create Nordic League or so. You will not have any Nordic League if some swedish clubs are against, or Finns are against. Simple. Honestly, I can not see this "unity"
You say a lot of silly things in a lot of threads, but here you have a point.
Hell, our clubs can't even unite about adding 2 more spots in SHL..

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07-01-2013, 06:03 PM
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I say what reality is. I dont say I like it.



I dont know man. I think it is important to be united if you want to create Nordic League or so. You will not have any Nordic League if some swedish clubs are against, or Finns are against. Simple. Honestly, I can not see this "unity"
MOD

Also where did i write that i want a nordic league? this entire page i have argued against it... Google translate is dangerous


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07-01-2013, 09:38 PM
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You say a lot of silly things in a lot of threads, but here you have a point.
Hell, our clubs can't even unite about adding 2 more spots in SHL..
Finnish top clubs would have no problem with a Nordic club, but since the Swedes can't agree on it/anything, they'll focus their efforts on European League or Champion's league/cup (HIFK bosss Timo Everi is organizing that with IIHF).

Just so you Swedes are clear, Harkimo has been making a loss with Hartwall Areena throughout it's existence and Jokerit have not been making profit for the last decade either there, so he got fed up with waiting for a European league and went for the quick profit.

Expecting other teams to follow soon isn't likely because e.g. HIFK nor Kärpät have a proper arena for the league (HIFK have plans to build a new one but that could take ages) nor money of their own. Kärpät had plans some years ago but then the IT industry in Oulu (read=Nokia) collapsed and they have no concrete plans for a new arena at the moment. Neither team's fanbase is interested in KHL.

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07-02-2013, 04:16 AM
  #21
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The point is if there are more swedish teams of higher quality or visa versa allsvenskan teams will get snubbed pretty hard. It would be like half swedens good teams in one league getting all the attention (i doubt it would though, but if) and the other half in a league with almost none while the other sides half of the "higher" league has worse competition then the top of the other sides "lower" league. And i think you missed the point about poor vs rich aswell. Either country needs the bigger teams to help the smaller teams income/competition. If there would be a few big teams from one country in the league it would mean many smaller ones in the domestic league that doesn't have anyone to hold them up. Meaning less money/opportunity for developing resulting in only a few teams in the entire country that develops depth = Bad for hockey in general. It could also have a domino effect. If the regions with smaller teams have less success hockey will become less popular which spreads to the regions were the sport is more popular and the people there start caring less even if their team does have success.

The best scenario for swedish hockey growing would be all divisions being very close in quality. What do you think would happen if the bigger teams make their own party and say "**** you" to the rest?
Well, the thing about Allsvenska teams feeling "snubbed", I don't see that as an issue at all. If they go the "jante way" it is there problem. Nothing has changed for them and they compete under the exactly same sitaution as before. If they feel snubbed they have a problem. And you can never guarantee exactly equal competitions i two divisions.

When it comes to "bigger teams" carrying the "smaller teams". Why would that change? Are you assuming all the top teams will leave for KHL? It might be true on the finish side if more teams leave for KHL - sure. You are assuming that SM-Liiga would be alot worse than the SHL-side. I dont agree.

But yeah, you need the big domestic markets to get most out of the "revenue chasing".

And about "rich" and "poor". Even today we have teams that somehow always finds themselfs in the bottom of the table.

I dont really get you point in the bolded part of the quote. The idea of this type of Nordic League is to prevent the bigger teams to start their own party and leave the rest. Just like Jokerit have done, and just like the "grand plan" of the Nordic/European trophy tournament growing into a private league.

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07-02-2013, 05:55 AM
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Well, the thing about Allsvenska teams feeling "snubbed", I don't see that as an issue at all. If they go the "jante way" it is there problem. Nothing has changed for them and they compete under the exactly same sitaution as before. If they feel snubbed they have a problem. And you can never guarantee exactly equal competitions i two divisions.

When it comes to "bigger teams" carrying the "smaller teams". Why would that change? Are you assuming all the top teams will leave for KHL? It might be true on the finish side if more teams leave for KHL - sure. You are assuming that SM-Liiga would be alot worse than the SHL-side. I dont agree.

But yeah, you need the big domestic markets to get most out of the "revenue chasing".

And about "rich" and "poor". Even today we have teams that somehow always finds themselfs in the bottom of the table.

I dont really get you point in the bolded part of the quote. The idea of this type of Nordic League is to prevent the bigger teams to start their own party and leave the rest. Just like Jokerit have done, and just like the "grand plan" of the Nordic/European trophy tournament growing into a private league.
Well if we came to the point were they would feel snubbed it would be an issue, for them and for us. Their situation will have changed, right now theres one league, one "playoffs" to advance. If another is added and they handle one side of the nordic league each it can create uneven competition, and if that isn't considered an issue then we might as well just merge allsvenskan with elitserien right now.
I didn't mean that i assume teams would join any other league. I meant theoretically if the nordic league would want to fix the competition and made it so one sides "league under" can take a spot from the other side in the nordic league one of the sides could have a few strong teams "up" resulting in the weaker teams fending for themselves "down" which sure is not morally wrong but not very good in general for the sport in that country. There is just imo no way to win that scenario(that i can think of).
Ofcourse there is always a bottom but above that bottom there is still in this case teams that drew benefit from the strongest teams. With the "party" i meant that if one side does only end up with 2 strong teams in the league (If they would want to fix the uneven competition) the party would be for those 2. It was another metaphor for "rich, poor"


Last edited by Dosing: 07-02-2013 at 06:01 AM.
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