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Jonas Brodin (Part II)

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07-31-2012, 01:49 PM
  #501
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I think Brodin starting in the AHL is the best for him.

He'd definitely be top 2 call up if needed.

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07-31-2012, 03:20 PM
  #502
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how about "because he's allready better than who we have on the third pair". why not ice the best team possible? I say this absolutely believing that he isn't going to benefit from playing x more minutes per night in the AHL than he will playing x minutes in the NHL. If he isn't already better than what we have on our third pair then he was a waste of a first round pick--hockey IQ and skating were his primary assets and he should be able to adapt to the NHL game much quicker than the average defenseman. I wouldn't cry myself to sleep if we lost one of our superfluous #7 defensemen off waivers.
"Put him on the ice now and who cares about how it affects his development down the road."

This team isn't built to win the cup this year. We're a lot better than we have been, and are certainly on the upswing, but that doesn't justify rushing people to the NHL because the NHL team "needs" them. The difference between the NHL and Houston isn't the quantity of minutes, but the quality of them. In Houston he'll get PP time, and will be focusing on his offensive game in an environment where he can build up the confidence he'll need to be the best player he can be. In the NHL he'll need to play sheltered minutes, and won't be given significant opportunity to develop more than just his defensive play and first pass.

I think he's more than capable of playing in the NHL at this point. He might even be one of our four best defensemen. I won't be heartbroken to see him playing with the Wild either. But he is probably best served in the AHL to start the year. Furthermore, it's not a one-sided "he's better than player x" argument. In fact, his skill and ability versus that which is on our NHL team should only matter if he's clearly not good enough to play with them. Whether he plays in St. Paul or Houston needs to be decided based upon where he has the best chance to develop, not where we "need" him most.

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07-31-2012, 03:34 PM
  #503
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Defense is a harder position than forward to break in to, that's why i also expected Brodin to start the year in Houston, but wouldn't be shocked at all to see him in stints with the Wild next year.

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07-31-2012, 03:40 PM
  #504
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If he isn't already better than what we have on our third pair then he was a waste of a first round pick
No, he wasn't.

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07-31-2012, 03:47 PM
  #505
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how about "because he's allready better than who we have on the third pair". why not ice the best team possible? I say this absolutely believing that he isn't going to benefit from playing x more minutes per night in the AHL than he will playing x minutes in the NHL.
Can you explain that thinking?

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07-31-2012, 03:59 PM
  #506
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Can you explain that thinking?
yes, although i'm clearly in the minority I don't believe he needs to acclimatize himself to the NA game, or rather I don't think he needs to start in Houston to do it. He's extremely intelligent in the hockey IQ department. Everyone around here has gone to the extreme in their paranoia about player development and how "rushing" them might stall them out. Brodin is much, much smarter than Sheppard or Gillies. he's probably smarter than Granlund. He's going to figure out the game at full NHL speed faster than our other prospects are going to figure it out at the AHL level.
As far as minutes go, it's been brought up more than a couple times: third pairing defensemen don't necessarily labor for minutes. in a corp where the defensemen are more evenly matched in skill there isn't the same disparity there is going to be between a first line forward and a fourth liner or even a third liner. He's not going to get stuck with only 7-8 minutes per night just because he's penciled in on the third pairing. He will have plenty of opportunity to play. Playing 30 minutes a night in the AHL (exaggerating) IMO isn't going to help him adapt to the NHL game any more than playing 12 minutes in the NHL.
He'd probably get more PP time in Houston but as that isn't his forte or even expected to be one of his strengths I don't see it as much of a reason to keep him down. even if he does get better on the PP he'd still be behind gilbert, Suter, and probably at least spurgeon when he comes up. He'll get the odd chance on the PP when the game is well in hand with the Wild.

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07-31-2012, 04:02 PM
  #507
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I agree with rynryn and add the additional thought that third pairing defensemen don't have the kind of task specialization that say a third (checking) or fourth (energy) line would. Also, he probably wouldn't suffer from not having a talented partner than a scoring forward would. His job would be pretty much the same: shut down the rush, take away the passing lanes, get the puck in the D zone, and break it out to the forwards.

Assuming the top pairing of Suter-Spurgeon, having Gilbert and Brodin split on the remaining D lines would actually give really strong puck movement up the ice no matter which D pairing is out there.

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07-31-2012, 04:08 PM
  #508
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Personally, I'd like to have him start in the NHL. However, training camp will show a lot. I trust our management to make the right decision.

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07-31-2012, 06:01 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
yes, although i'm clearly in the minority I don't believe he needs to acclimatize himself to the NA game, or rather I don't think he needs to start in Houston to do it. He's extremely intelligent in the hockey IQ department. Everyone around here has gone to the extreme in their paranoia about player development and how "rushing" them might stall them out. Brodin is much, much smarter than Sheppard or Gillies. he's probably smarter than Granlund. He's going to figure out the game at full NHL speed faster than our other prospects are going to figure it out at the AHL level.
As far as minutes go, it's been brought up more than a couple times: third pairing defensemen don't necessarily labor for minutes. in a corp where the defensemen are more evenly matched in skill there isn't the same disparity there is going to be between a first line forward and a fourth liner or even a third liner. He's not going to get stuck with only 7-8 minutes per night just because he's penciled in on the third pairing. He will have plenty of opportunity to play. Playing 30 minutes a night in the AHL (exaggerating) IMO isn't going to help him adapt to the NHL game any more than playing 12 minutes in the NHL.
He'd probably get more PP time in Houston but as that isn't his forte or even expected to be one of his strengths I don't see it as much of a reason to keep him down. even if he does get better on the PP he'd still be behind gilbert, Suter, and probably at least spurgeon when he comes up. He'll get the odd chance on the PP when the game is well in hand with the Wild.
But you keep strawmanning against this imaginary "more minutes" point. I haven't seen anyone comment about the quantity of minutes. You narrowly address the PP time by saying "pff, he won't be on the PP in the NHL this year or next," but that's not addressing any of the actual reasoning for giving him PP time. Even his ES time will be more valuable offensively in Houston as he'll be encouraged to develop it far more than he'd be allowed with the big club. If you're fine with him being a pure shutdown defenseman, completely neglecting any chance for two-way or offensive play, then there is no benefit to Houston. If you think he can be more than Nick Schultz, then there's certainly a very strong argument to be made for sending him down to start the year.

He's a 19 year old defenseman. Want a comparable career path? Erik Karlsson started him 19 year old year (and first year away from the SEL) in Binghampton. OEL? Same story with San Antonio. Tedenby? Still the same, except spent an extra year in Sweden. Someone who followed your suggested path? Victor Hedman, and while still a good defenseman, he's been a bit disappointing. The only other SEL defenseman in my glance through the 2008-2010 drafts for comparables is David Rundblad. He started the year with Ottawa, but Phoenix sent him back to the AHL almost immediately.

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07-31-2012, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
But you keep strawmanning against this imaginary "more minutes" point. I haven't seen anyone comment about the quantity of minutes. You narrowly address the PP time by saying "pff, he won't be on the PP in the NHL this year or next," but that's not addressing any of the actual reasoning for giving him PP time. Even his ES time will be more valuable offensively in Houston as he'll be encouraged to develop it far more than he'd be allowed with the big club. If you're fine with him being a pure shutdown defenseman, completely neglecting any chance for two-way or offensive play, then there is no benefit to Houston. If you think he can be more than Nick Schultz, then there's certainly a very strong argument to be made for sending him down to start the year.

He's a 19 year old defenseman. Want a comparable career path? Erik Karlsson started him 19 year old year (and first year away from the SEL) in Binghampton. OEL? Same story with San Antonio. Tedenby? Still the same, except spent an extra year in Sweden. Someone who followed your suggested path? Victor Hedman, and while still a good defenseman, he's been a bit disappointing. The only other SEL defenseman in my glance through the 2008-2010 drafts for comparables is David Rundblad. He started the year with Ottawa, but Phoenix sent him back to the AHL almost immediately.
yeah, because outside of time in Houston there's no chance of him developing offensively or honing a two-way game. no chance at all. Karlsson and OEL are both players who are known for their offensive game and (still) need to work on their defensive game. Brodin has that already. Not really comparable players. Hedman started playing right away due in no small part to his size. Look, you aren't going to convince me. Not that it makes any difference but you forgot to add adam Larsson as one of the more obvious SEL to NHL transplants.

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07-31-2012, 07:05 PM
  #511
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Fletcher's catch phrase has always been "I'll do whatever it takes to make my team better." If management deems Brodin to be good enough to be a top 6 defenceman in the NHL, i think that's where he will start the season. Like someone touched on earlier, people need to stop comparing Brodin to a Colton Gilies or a James Sheppard and saying, "We better not rush him or he will turn out to be a bust", it's not like Shep and Gilies magically become NHL super stars if they spend a few more years in the AHL developing. I don't think for a player of the caliber of Brodin it will really matter whether he starts in the AHL or the NHL. That is just my humble opinion......

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07-31-2012, 07:15 PM
  #512
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gotta say though that unlike what i might wish (just lose one of the bottom D) it sounds like Fletcher will take a little time to add the players he thinks have what it takes. I think he said it in response to a general question about having so many near-ready forward prospects but it was something along the lines of "it may take a few weeks or a month but we'll find a space on the roster for them if we feel they make the team better." So I think realistically they might keep a guy like bulmer or coyle (or Brodin) down in Houston not necessarily because they need to develop but rather because they do want to see if they can get something for the guy getting bumped off the roster. makes sense, but not sure what he could get for some of the guys who would be losing their jobs to make it worth waiting.

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07-31-2012, 07:22 PM
  #513
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I think whether Brodin starts with the Wild or gets sent down to Houston will depend primarily on how he looks during training camp and in the pre-season. If Fletcher and Co. thinks he ready, I'm sure he'll stick.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see him spend a month or so in Houston just to get acclimated to the smaller rinks and NA style of play, then bring him up.

Either way, I'll just have to trust Wild mgmt to do what they think is best for Brodin in the long term.....

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07-31-2012, 07:33 PM
  #514
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yeah, because outside of time in Houston there's no chance of him developing offensively or honing a two-way game. no chance at all. Karlsson and OEL are both players who are known for their offensive game and (still) need to work on their defensive game. Brodin has that already. Not really comparable players. Hedman started playing right away due in no small part to his size. Look, you aren't going to convince me. Not that it makes any difference but you forgot to add adam Larsson as one of the more obvious SEL to NHL transplants.
Adam Larsson didn't have a 19 year old season to compare to, and if you think that including him might have remotely improved your argument, there aren't words to describe...There is literally no SEL defenseman drafted since 2008 who could be used to support your argument for what needs to happen.

You keep either ignoring or lying your way past the quality of minutes point. Why do you think Scandella was sent back to Houston? Also, Karlsson a player known for his offensive game?


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07-31-2012, 07:55 PM
  #515
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Give him some AHL time and let him work on his offense with the super loaded talent we will have down there. His defensive play is probably NHL ready but he has some great offensive gifts too that were neglected in Farjestads and I would like to see him cultivate them along with some confidence in the rest of his game as well. Month or two in Houston then adjust accordingly as our D picture gets clearer.

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07-31-2012, 08:15 PM
  #516
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yeah, because outside of time in Houston there's no chance of him developing offensively or honing a two-way game. no chance at all. Karlsson and OEL are both players who are known for their offensive game and (still) need to work on their defensive game. Brodin has that already. Not really comparable players. Hedman started playing right away due in no small part to his size. Look, you aren't going to convince me. Not that it makes any difference but you forgot to add adam Larsson as one of the more obvious SEL to NHL transplants.
I think they just want to make sure that players are ready. Obviously there will be exceptions (granlund) who wont have to prove themselves in the A but for the most part players should have to come up through the ranks.

If brodin proves in training camp that he can undoubtedly help this team than keep him up here. But it can't hurt to keep him (or any other prospect) down in Houston for a chunk of the year.

I'm not against putting Brodin on the third pairing - but i do want to see the wild make an effort to develop his offensive game.

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07-31-2012, 08:17 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Adam Larsson didn't have a 19 year old season to compare to, and if you think that including him might have remotely improved your argument, there aren't words to describe...There is literally no SEL defenseman drafted since 2008 who could be used to support your argument for what needs to happen.

You keep either ignoring or lying your way past the quality of minutes point. Why do you think Scandella was sent back to Houston? Also, Karlsson a player known for his offensive game?
Lying? Im typing on my phone while driving around so really not in a position to makr an accurate review...thought while you were throwing out irrelevant comparables you may have passed over Larsson. No of course it doesnt do anything for my opinion but yours in this case means nothing at all to me so why not just toss him in. Got me on the karlsson thing. Like i said im a bit distracted. Gotta keep logging on because my phone is notremembering passwords.

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07-31-2012, 08:27 PM
  #518
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I think they just want to make sure that players are ready. Obviously there will be exceptions (granlund) who wont have to prove themselves in the A but for the most part players should have to come up through the ranks.

If brodin proves in training camp that he can undoubtedly help this team than keep him up here. But it can't hurt to keep him (or any other prospect) down in Houston for a chunk of the year.

I'm not against putting Brodin on the third pairing - but i do want to see the wild make an effort to develop his offensive game.
Personally i hope if there is any signs of him needing adjusting to the game he is sent to Houston, no slack to anyone, it will hit morale.

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07-31-2012, 08:55 PM
  #519
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it might cause panic in the masses if Granlund is sent away for remedial training.

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07-31-2012, 10:02 PM
  #520
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Yeah, while Granlund might be served by a very very very short stint in Houston (say 5-10 games max unless he's severely coming short of expectations) can you imagine the panic from the masses if he's not on the opening day roster?

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07-31-2012, 10:12 PM
  #521
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If Granlund suddenly plays worse-than-expected, I could see Fletcher taking him out for a game or two "due to injury" and then sending him down to Houston for a few games for "conditioning/returning to form". It's what I would do. In total, miss between 5-10 NHL games, play somewhere around teh same number down in Texas. It could help him out.

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07-31-2012, 10:27 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Adam Larsson didn't have a 19 year old season to compare to, and if you think that including him might have remotely improved your argument, there aren't words to describe...

You keep either ignoring or lying your way past the quality of minutes point. Why do you think Scandella was sent back to Houston?
Not following you here. Why wouldn't Larsson be a comparable? Because his example doesn;t support your argument?

Rynryn is lying? Huh?

It is a very valid point stressing the major TOI difference between a 3rd or 4th Line Forward and a 3rd Pairing Dman, which you gloss over. Personally, I have no problem either way, if he earns a roster spot with the Wild give it to him. Let him travel, train, practice and play with the big club - he'll learn a lot. If he does go to Houston, fine. Let him learn and mature there.

I don't think there is any question of the organization rushing him because they "need" him, the question is whether he's up to the challenge of playing in the NHL, or would be better served developing in the AHL.

As far as Scandella goes - he earned the roster spot and when he struggled he was sent down to regain confidence and regroup. Are you claiming Scandella is now ruined becasue he was rushed last year? I think you can argue that Scandella is going to be a better player next season because he got that NHL experience.

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07-31-2012, 10:54 PM
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There is actually a big difference between playing 12-14 minutes a night in the NHL and playing 30 minutes a night and in every situation in the AHL.

It's not like there is a need for Brodin on the Wild this season. Odds are he's not going to become the #2 Dman we need in a few months.

For better or for worse, we are stuck with Spurgeon and Scandella for at least 1/2 the season. If one of them can't hack it, we'll probably see Brodin in December or January.

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07-31-2012, 11:02 PM
  #524
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What makes people think Brodin will get 30 minutes a game in the AHL? That seems like an awfully big load for a 19-20 year old. Could that in theory also hurt his development by playing too many minutes and mentally and/or physically exhausting him?

Maybe the swedish posters know more about his ice time in the SEL.

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07-31-2012, 11:50 PM
  #525
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yeah, because outside of time in Houston there's no chance of him developing offensively or honing a two-way game. no chance at all. Karlsson and OEL are both players who are known for their offensive game and (still) need to work on their defensive game. Brodin has that already. Not really comparable players. Hedman started playing right away due in no small part to his size. Look, you aren't going to convince me. Not that it makes any difference but you forgot to add adam Larsson as one of the more obvious SEL to NHL transplants.
Why do you say that? I think he is very mobile, has a great pass, great hockey IQ and vision. His shot is okay, but the thing he struggles with is getting comfortable to join the rush and really run the offense.

However, I do think he has the tools to become a two-way defenseman.

Like you said, if you want a pure defensive defenseman, NHL is probably the right place. But if you want your 10th overall pick to become a superstar defensively but also rack up 30-40 points in a season, Houston is the place to hone some of his offensive skills and confidence.

However, if you want a 10-20pt defensive defenseman, NHL should be the right fit.

EDIT: I am projecting Brodin to become like Kim Johnsson or Kenny Jonsson, all non-physical type d-men with specialty in mobility and moving the puck. I think he has the potential into developing into these types of players. I'm hoping he develops better than a Nick Schultz or a Niklas Grossman.


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