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LONDON KNIGHTS vs. U MINNESOTA

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Old
12-12-2004, 02:46 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VOB
One its called conditioning. CIS teams do not do much of any dry land training and basically get into game shape during the course of the season. NCAA teams come to camp in shape and ready to play. Last year Western Michigan played both Western Ontario and Wilferd Laurier in December and the games were very close. It took an empty net goal to secure Western Michigan's win over Western Ontario. The conditioning advantage had by December decreased to a very small edge compared to the chasm that it is in early October.

Two, most CIS teams feature former CHL players who were at best second and third line players and bottom paring Dmen. So the CIS/NCAA exhibition games are not very indicitive of the talent levels between the CHL and the NCAA. Teams from out east and a few from out West (such as the Golden Bears) tend to take the better former CHL players and they have more success against NCAA competition because of it.
That's a valid point. The Golden Bears have a over .500 record against NCAA teams I've heard. Something like 6-3-1.

The NCAA appears to have more high level talent than the CIS. Many players who succeed at the provincial Junior A leagues get good scholarships to the top collegiate programs in the States, therefore don't go into want to get involved with major junior to hurt their eligibility. Plus, with the Van Ryn rule, I think at some point, they can choose to come back to major junior (eg: Van Ryn and Comrie) if college doesn't pan out.

How many CIS grads are there in the NHL right now? I know Cory Cross and Steve Rucchin of the top of my head.

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12-12-2004, 04:22 PM
  #27
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I know the gophers played Calgary early this year. The gophs won 7-2 with 45 shots on goal. The gophers played all of their freshman. Sat Smaagaard, Fleming, Sertich, and Stevens. 3 Seniors and a Junior. No idea how good Calgary was or is but it is just a score.
Denver 6 Windsor 0, NoDak 8 Manitoba 3,
Colorado College 6 Windsor 1, Minnesota St 5 Calgary 2

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12-12-2004, 06:42 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MN_Gopher
I know the gophers played Calgary early this year. The gophs won 7-2 with 45 shots on goal. The gophers played all of their freshman. Sat Smaagaard, Fleming, Sertich, and Stevens. 3 Seniors and a Junior. No idea how good Calgary was or is but it is just a score.
Denver 6 Windsor 0, NoDak 8 Manitoba 3,
Colorado College 6 Windsor 1, Minnesota St 5 Calgary 2
usually the top CIS teams are Alberta, and some of the ones in Quebec and on the East coat, such as UQTR, St. Francis Xavier and Acadia Axemen

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12-12-2004, 08:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by MN_Gopher
I know the gophers played Calgary early this year. The gophs won 7-2 with 45 shots on goal. The gophers played all of their freshman. Sat Smaagaard, Fleming, Sertich, and Stevens. 3 Seniors and a Junior. No idea how good Calgary was or is but it is just a score.
Denver 6 Windsor 0, NoDak 8 Manitoba 3,
Colorado College 6 Windsor 1, Minnesota St 5 Calgary 2
i dont know if this is a good means of comparision because the calgary dinos are horific this year

by the way does anyone know what the chances are of having a chl/ncaa all star game or even a whl/ohl/qmjhl/ncaa allstar games, if they can play the russians then would it be to hard to have this happen. there is probably some kind of rule stopping it seeing as the ncaa is full of rules, but does anyone know about the possibility of this?

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12-13-2004, 10:44 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger
This of course has nothing to do with this thread. London, RIGHT NOW, would be beat by Minnesota, based mainly on the age/maturity factor, but also because they have an excellent team, especially in goal and on the blueline.
London has the more skilled players and a better offense. London could outscore Minnesota, maybe not outplay them because of the age thing but still for offensive production alone i'd say the kings are better. Hell if you add Nash in London could run away with it.

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12-13-2004, 11:28 AM
  #31
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Play a 7-game series on NHL-size ice with CHL rules - no 2-line pass or tag-up offside, half shields, 5 for fighting, no "breathe on a guy and get a penalty" - and I think Hunter-hockey wins this series.

Play NCAA rules or mixed rules, and I think London is the heavy underdog.

As an aside, I haven't seen it noted in this thread that London got its players through drafts and trades, whereas Minnesota can go after (and usually gets) any player that it wants. Obvious advantage for Minnesota.

Now, if you want to play 2 teams of CHL all-stars vs. 2 teams of NCAA all-stars in a multi-game round robin, my money is on the CHL all-stars all day long.

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12-13-2004, 11:34 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by J17ster
London has the more skilled players and a better offense. London could outscore Minnesota, maybe not outplay them because of the age thing but still for offensive production alone i'd say the kings are better. Hell if you add Nash in London could run away with it.
Well, if you get Nash the Gophers could take Leopold or Vanek or Taffe...both teams have elite alumni...thats not the point.

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12-13-2004, 03:21 PM
  #33
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As far as toughnest goes, i honestly do not know. But Potulny has his share of fighting majors, DeMarchi did last year, Mike Vanneli and some NoDak guy went this year and i forgot who but there was another good fight in the WCHA last year. Jake Taylor has gone in the AHL. If anyone could tell me if these guys won or get beat up. They are currnet or last year NCAAers. The NCAA is not lack of physical play, it just costs you. NHL, NCAA rules i still see college teams winning. And i wish we could take an all star team vs all start team. Last year you would have had, Parise, Bochenski, Vanek, Eaves, Pock, Ballard, and many more. All playing in the AHL right now and probally would be in the NHL if not for lock out among many others on the team.

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12-13-2004, 03:45 PM
  #34
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alot of the gophers played in the ushl before they joined the U...so its not like they aren't familiar with fighting...I don't know if USHL and CHL rules are the same...but to say the gophs would get there ass kicked is ignorant


also......there are plenty of underclassmen on the U squad...only a few 20+ players...

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12-13-2004, 10:10 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaachie12
Well, if you get Nash the Gophers could take Leopold or Vanek or Taffe...both teams have elite alumni...thats not the point.
It is the point actually. The Gophers are generally 2,3,4 years older than the Knights. So if one was to take all the Knight graduates who are the same age as the Gophers, the game wouldn't be much of a contest. Allowing the Gophers to play Leopold or Taffe completely defeats the purpose of letting London use their recent graduates.

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12-14-2004, 12:27 PM
  #36
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This is a joke, take any of the top college programs (Minnesota, Michigan, Boston College) and they will easily beat a top CHL team, no matter what the format. Yes, college kids are older but the talent level in college hockey is much deeper. I think a better game would be between the US-18 team and London.

I can remember back when the USNTDP program began and the US-18's were consistently beating OHL teams. Why do you think they don't play anymore? I actually remeber back when Plymouth, Erie, US-18 and some NAHL (US teir II program) played in a tournament in Erie. The NAHL team, I belive it was Springfield played Plymouth to a very close game and that Plymouth team included Esche is goal and Legwand up front.

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12-14-2004, 02:28 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie
It is the point actually. The Gophers are generally 2,3,4 years older than the Knights. So if one was to take all the Knight graduates who are the same age as the Gophers, the game wouldn't be much of a contest. Allowing the Gophers to play Leopold or Taffe completely defeats the purpose of letting London use their recent graduates.
well considering the point of the entire thread is who would win right now, between these two current teams...it has zero to do with the point. I am referring to the thread topic, but whatever.

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12-14-2004, 05:32 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by chaachie12
well considering the point of the entire thread is who would win right now, between these two current teams...it has zero to do with the point. I am referring to the thread topic, but whatever.
You inferred that what he meant was that London had better alumni. (which was not was he was suggesting at all) He was suggesting "leveling the playing field" by allowing London to play graduates who are the same age as the Gophers current players. He was merely pointing out a hypothetical situation in which the game would be more competitive. (though I'm inclined to think London would beat Minnesota in such a situation)

I think most sensible people would agree that, largely due to age/experience, Minnesota would likely dominate a series. (though in a 1 game showdown, with a team as talented as London, you never know what would happen)

Quote:
Yes, college kids are older but the talent level in college hockey is much deeper.
I don't buy it. If you took a top CHL team's roster and reunited them in 2,3 years (when they are equal in maturity to college programs), they would easily be able to compete with any top NCAA program.

Quote:
I think a better game would be between the US-18 team and London.
Don't kid yourself. London would absolutely smash the U18 team. It is possible the U-18 team could be competitive with weaker CHL clubs but certainly not a team of London's calibre.

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12-14-2004, 07:12 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonDrop_27
This is a joke, take any of the top college programs (Minnesota, Michigan, Boston College) and they will easily beat a top CHL team, no matter what the format. Yes, college kids are older but the talent level in college hockey is much deeper. I think a better game would be between the US-18 team and London.

I can remember back when the USNTDP program began and the US-18's were consistently beating OHL teams. Why do you think they don't play anymore? I actually remeber back when Plymouth, Erie, US-18 and some NAHL (US teir II program) played in a tournament in Erie. The NAHL team, I belive it was Springfield played Plymouth to a very close game and that Plymouth team included Esche is goal and Legwand up front.
At the U-18 Worlds, the U.S. U-18 team, after playing and practicing together all year, has been getting beaten by a scrub team of U-18 CHLer's culled from teams that missed the playoffs. But they could give a "better game" to one of the best CHL teams in history? Right.

Your recounting of the NTDP's past is completely disingenuous. The tournament in Erie was played during the time period when the OHL teams each had their best 5-8 players at NHL training camps, either as draft picks or as free agent invites. The OHL stopped playing those games when it clued into the fact that it was in competition with the NTDP to recruit the best U.S. players.

Bottom line: if the talent level in college hockey were "much deeper", the percentage of players drafted and/or signed by, and playing in, the NHL/AHL would reflect that, especially when the CBA makes it more favorable for a team to draft a college player. As everybody knows, of course there is no such reflection.


Last edited by Juan: 12-14-2004 at 07:18 PM.
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12-14-2004, 08:57 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
At the U-18 Worlds, the U.S. U-18 team, after playing and practicing together all year, has been getting beaten by a scrub team of U-18 CHLer's culled from teams that missed the playoffs. But they could give a "better game" to one of the best CHL teams in history? Right.

Your recounting of the NTDP's past is completely disingenuous. The tournament in Erie was played during the time period when the OHL teams each had their best 5-8 players at NHL training camps, either as draft picks or as free agent invites. The OHL stopped playing those games when it clued into the fact that it was in competition with the NTDP to recruit the best U.S. players.

Bottom line: if the talent level in college hockey were "much deeper", the percentage of players drafted and/or signed by, and playing in, the NHL/AHL would reflect that, especially when the CBA makes it more favorable for a team to draft a college player. As everybody knows, of course there is no such reflection.
Interesting & very informative. I was wondering how in gods name what he said could happen.
I still do say however that the Gophers would crush the Knights, for the reasons I previously articulated.

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Old
12-15-2004, 12:04 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
At the U-18 Worlds, the U.S. U-18 team, after playing and practicing together all year, has been getting beaten by a scrub team of U-18 CHLer's culled from teams that missed the playoffs. But they could give a "better game" to one of the best CHL teams in history? Right.

Your recounting of the NTDP's past is completely disingenuous. The tournament in Erie was played during the time period when the OHL teams each had their best 5-8 players at NHL training camps, either as draft picks or as free agent invites. The OHL stopped playing those games when it clued into the fact that it was in competition with the NTDP to recruit the best U.S. players.

Bottom line: if the talent level in college hockey were "much deeper", the percentage of players drafted and/or signed by, and playing in, the NHL/AHL would reflect that, especially when the CBA makes it more favorable for a team to draft a college player. As everybody knows, of course there is no such reflection.

Here is where your arguement is wrong 1. The NTDP team won the U-18's two years ago and lost in the finals to Russia last year. I'm not sure if they beat Canada two years ago but I know they did last year. So in fact Canada has not been beating the US team. 2. Here is a list of your so called players picked to form "a scrub team of U-18 CHLer's culled from teams that missed the playoffs" :

Dubnyk - 1st round - 14 overall
Chipchure - 1st round - 18 overall
Schultz - 1st round - 27 overall
Rogers - 1st round - 30 overall

Funk - 2nd round - 43 overall
Garlock - 2nd round - 45 overall
Byers - 2nd round - 48 overall
Wharton - 2nd round - 59 overall

Pogge - 3rd round
Berti - 3rd round
Lammers - 3rd round

O'Neil - 4th round
Reddox - 4th round
McGrath - 4th round

Versteeg - 5th round

Cabana - 6th round

Rizk - 7th round

Hunter - 8th round
Gagnon - 8th round
Schulz - 8th round

Tsimikalis - UNDRAFTED
Sigalet - DID NOT OPT IN - Rated #3 college player for 2005 draft

Hardly a "srcub" team compared to the US team who had 5 total draft picks only one of which was a first rounder (Cory Schneider, who was just brought in for the tournament)

So the US team with 5 drafted players beat the Canadian team who had all but 2 players drafted, one of which will get drafted this year. Now lets compare this to Londons roster of draft picks:

Rob Schremp - 25th
Corey Perry - 28th
Dave Bolland - 32nd
Brandon Prust - 70th
Frank Rediker - 118th
Trevor Kell - 131st
Marc Methot - 168th
Dylan Hunter - 273rd

8 players total, neither of the first rounders (Schremp & Perry went higher than Dubnyk or Chipchura) London may be one of the best teams in CHL history (personally I think it's to early to tell) but don't make the comparison to an U-18 team with 20 drafted players.

For your next arguement, you say that OHL teams stopped playing against the NTDP because they realized they were competing against them for the best US players. If the CHL is so much better and the teams in the CHL are that much deeper, why wouldn't they want to consistently destroy the NTDP to show the best US players that they should go the major route?? Because they were losing to the NTDP which made the CHL look bad. Why would a top US kid go to a major junior team that was consistently losing to the NTDP??

Finally, I will admit, I do remember now that during the tournament in Erie, some of the OHL players were in pro camps. You got one thing right.

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12-15-2004, 12:57 AM
  #42
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Here is a list of drafted players from the University of Minnesota (#1 team in college hockey) and The University of Michigan (#3 team in college hockey)

Minnesota:
Chucko - 1st round
Goligoski - 2nd round
Tallackson - 2nd round
Potulny - 3rd round
Irmen - 3rd round
Vanelli - 4h round
Guyer - 5th round
Seritch - 5th round
Peltier - 6th round
Atherton - 6th round
TOTAL: 10

Michigan
Montoya - 1st round
Nystrom - 1st round
Tambellini - 1st round
Ryznar - 3rd round
Gajic - 4th round
Woodford - 4th round
Rogers - 4th round
Porter - 4th round
Cook - 5th round
Rohlfs - 5th round
Brown - 5th round
Kolarik - 7th round
Moss - 7th round
Hunwick - 7th round
TOTAL: 14

London Knights, #1 team in CHL, TOTAL: 9

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12-15-2004, 02:34 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
So a team like North Dakota who has:

Zajac
Stafford
Murray
Smaby
Schneider
Porter
Massen
Jones
Greene

All these players were drafted to the NHL.....plus they are much older then the potential draft picks playing for London. North Dakota isn't even the best team in the country.
Sure SOME of those players are top quality players BUT look at London's team:
Corey Perry
Rob Schremp
Dave Bolland
Danny Syvret
Bryan Rodney
Gerald Coleman
Dylan Hunter

those are some pretty good players too

Most of the Top drafted OHL players would be playing at these big NCAA schools anyways


I think Minnesota would win but it would go the full 7 games for sure... I'd really like to see it

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12-15-2004, 03:20 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonDrop_27
Here is where your arguement is wrong 1. The NTDP team won the U-18's two years ago and lost in the finals to Russia last year. I'm not sure if they beat Canada two years ago but I know they did last year. So in fact Canada has not been beating the US team. 2. Here is a list of your so called players picked to form "a scrub team of U-18 CHLer's culled from teams that missed the playoffs" :

Dubnyk - 1st round - 14 overall
Chipchure - 1st round - 18 overall
Schultz - 1st round - 27 overall
Rogers - 1st round - 30 overall

Funk - 2nd round - 43 overall
Garlock - 2nd round - 45 overall
Byers - 2nd round - 48 overall
Wharton - 2nd round - 59 overall

Pogge - 3rd round
Berti - 3rd round
Lammers - 3rd round

O'Neil - 4th round
Reddox - 4th round
McGrath - 4th round

Versteeg - 5th round

Cabana - 6th round

Rizk - 7th round

Hunter - 8th round
Gagnon - 8th round
Schulz - 8th round

Tsimikalis - UNDRAFTED
Sigalet - DID NOT OPT IN - Rated #3 college player for 2005 draft

Hardly a "srcub" team compared to the US team who had 5 total draft picks only one of which was a first rounder (Cory Schneider, who was just brought in for the tournament)

So the US team with 5 drafted players beat the Canadian team who had all but 2 players drafted, one of which will get drafted this year. Now lets compare this to Londons roster of draft picks:

Rob Schremp - 25th
Corey Perry - 28th
Dave Bolland - 32nd
Brandon Prust - 70th
Frank Rediker - 118th
Trevor Kell - 131st
Marc Methot - 168th
Dylan Hunter - 273rd

8 players total, neither of the first rounders (Schremp & Perry went higher than Dubnyk or Chipchura) London may be one of the best teams in CHL history (personally I think it's to early to tell) but don't make the comparison to an U-18 team with 20 drafted players.

For your next arguement, you say that OHL teams stopped playing against the NTDP because they realized they were competing against them for the best US players. If the CHL is so much better and the teams in the CHL are that much deeper, why wouldn't they want to consistently destroy the NTDP to show the best US players that they should go the major route?? Because they were losing to the NTDP which made the CHL look bad. Why would a top US kid go to a major junior team that was consistently losing to the NTDP??

Finally, I will admit, I do remember now that during the tournament in Erie, some of the OHL players were in pro camps. You got one thing right.
If you're going to spend such a long time typing, at least try to get some of the cursory facts right. In 2004, USA finished 2nd at the U-18, Canada finished 4th. In 2003, Canada finished 1st, USA finished 4th.

When I used the word "scrub", I wasn't referring to the quality of the players, although it would be silly to suggest that those are Canada's best players. "Scrub" also means "makeshift" or "prepared expediently", i.e., thrown together quickly. As opposed to playing and practicing together all year.

To suggest that London would lose to the non-playoff Canadian U-18 team based on the number of draft picks on each team is terribly simplistic. Should the Canadian and U.S. World Junior teams go down the draft list and have a roll call to pick their best teams?

Yes, the CHL realized that losing to the NTDP did make them look bad... to American families that might be unaware that the U-18 wasn't beating real OHL teams, but what instead were essentially training camp "rookie" teams. In any event, I find it more perturbing when the US U-17 team - with Kessel, Skille, Stoa, Johnson, Mueller et al - can't beat a makeshift team from Quebec.

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12-15-2004, 03:26 AM
  #45
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The impression that I am getting from most people in this thread is that the CHL is a league with a bunch of inferiors compared to NCAA.

Is this true?


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12-15-2004, 03:26 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonDrop_27
Here is a list of drafted players from the University of Minnesota (#1 team in college hockey) and The University of Michigan (#3 team in college hockey)

Minnesota:
Chucko - 1st round
Goligoski - 2nd round
Tallackson - 2nd round
Potulny - 3rd round
Irmen - 3rd round
Vanelli - 4h round
Guyer - 5th round
Seritch - 5th round
Peltier - 6th round
Atherton - 6th round
TOTAL: 10

Michigan
Montoya - 1st round
Nystrom - 1st round
Tambellini - 1st round
Ryznar - 3rd round
Gajic - 4th round
Woodford - 4th round
Rogers - 4th round
Porter - 4th round
Cook - 5th round
Rohlfs - 5th round
Brown - 5th round
Kolarik - 7th round
Moss - 7th round
Hunwick - 7th round
TOTAL: 14

London Knights, #1 team in CHL, TOTAL: 9
You wouldn't have bothered wasting time typing that if you had any understanding of the different draft/re-entry/free agency provisions relating to CHL vs. NCAA players in the last CBA.

That notwithstanding, you should be amazed that London can acquire 9 NHL draft picks through drafts and trades while having strict age and geography limitations, whereas Minnesota can acquire only one more NHL draft pick while being able to recruit any player they want, from wherever they want, with no age limit.


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12-15-2004, 07:53 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
If you're going to spend such a long time typing, at least try to get some of the cursory facts right. In 2004, USA finished 2nd at the U-18, Canada finished 4th. In 2003, Canada finished 1st, USA finished 4th.

When I used the word "scrub", I wasn't referring to the quality of the players, although it would be silly to suggest that those are Canada's best players. "Scrub" also means "makeshift" or "prepared expediently", i.e., thrown together quickly. As opposed to playing and practicing together all year.

To suggest that London would lose to the non-playoff Canadian U-18 team based on the number of draft picks on each team is terribly simplistic. Should the Canadian and U.S. World Junior teams go down the draft list and have a roll call to pick their best teams?

Yes, the CHL realized that losing to the NTDP did make them look bad... to American families that might be unaware that the U-18 wasn't beating real OHL teams, but what instead were essentially training camp "rookie" teams. In any event, I find it more perturbing when the US U-17 team - with Kessel, Skille, Stoa, Johnson, Mueller et al - can't beat a makeshift team from Quebec.

The last loss you are referring to was a a dissapointment to say the least. The U.S. team really underachieved in that tournament, one of the few instances of that happening of late.

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12-15-2004, 07:56 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
You wouldn't have bothered wasting time typing that if you had any understanding of the different draft/re-entry/free agency provisions relating to CHL vs. NCAA players in the last CBA.

That notwithstanding, you should be amazed that London can acquire 9 NHL draft picks through drafts and trades while having strict age and geography limitations, whereas Minnesota can acquire only one more NHL draft pick while being able to recruit any player they want, from wherever they want, with no age limit.

Fair points. although Minnesota has self-imposed geographical limitations (recruiting mainly from Minnesota, occasionally from North Dakota, and rarely from elsewhere), and the players that are drafted are still freshmen.


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12-15-2004, 08:08 AM
  #49
ceber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
whereas Minnesota can acquire only one more NHL draft pick while being able to recruit any player they want, from wherever they want, with no age limit.
I think comparing draft picks is misguided at best, silly and meaningless at worst. However, this description of how the U can recruit sounds a little misleading to me. The NCAA has some fairly stringent eligibility restrictions.

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12-15-2004, 05:09 PM
  #50
VOB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_man
The impression that I am getting from most people in this thread is that the CHL is a league with a bunch of inferiors compared to NCAA.

Is this true?


You would be in great error if you are taking that "impression" from this thread as to the actually quality of players between the NCAA and the CHL. Simply look at the past NHL entry draft lists over the past ten years. The CHL has always had more players drafted than the NCAA. Take a look at the best players in the NHL and you will see far more CHL alums than you will college grads. Take a look at the best players under 30 and you will still see a distinct CHL advantage.

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