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Old
05-02-2012, 11:03 AM
  #76
Winger98
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2002 Draft
Hudler
Flip
Ericsson

2003 Draft
Howard
Quincey

2004 Draft
Franzen

2005 Draft
Helm
Abdelkader
Kindl

three top six forwards, a third line center, two top6 D and one depth D, and a starting goalie. Is there a Giroux or Suter in there? No, but that's a good haul.

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05-02-2012, 11:14 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
2002 Draft
Hudler
Flip
Ericsson

2003 Draft
Howard
Quincey

2004 Draft
Franzen

2005 Draft
Helm
Abdelkader
Kindl

three top six forwards, a third line center, two top6 D and one depth D, and a starting goalie. Is there a Giroux or Suter in there? No, but that's a good haul.
yes alot of good depth players plus howard. i am not sure if thats what created and cemented Holland reputation is all.

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05-02-2012, 12:23 PM
  #78
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yes alot of good depth players plus howard. i am not sure if thats what created and cemented Holland reputation is all.
Not at all imo. His reputation was created with finding diamonds in the late rounds (Z, Datsyuk, Franzen, Helm etc.)

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05-02-2012, 02:56 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
yes alot of good depth players plus howard. i am not sure if thats what created and cemented Holland reputation is all.
So three of our Top 6 are just good depth players?

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05-02-2012, 03:22 PM
  #80
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So three of our Top 6 are just good depth players?
sorry no you are right, hudler is, the other two are top 6 players

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05-03-2012, 03:17 PM
  #81
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It look like Zach Parise or Rick Nash will not come to Detroit.

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05-03-2012, 03:20 PM
  #82
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Old
05-03-2012, 03:26 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by KingzOverAcez View Post
Not at all imo. His reputation was created with finding diamonds in the late rounds (Z, Datsyuk, Franzen, Helm etc.)
No, no, and no. The first 3 of those 4 were exclusively scouted by Hakan Andersson. Seriously you guys are killing me in this thread.

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05-03-2012, 03:28 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
yes alot of good depth players plus howard. i am not sure if thats what created and cemented Holland reputation is all.
this 100% attributing our draft success and failure to Holland needs to stop right now.

Here is a quote for you:

Wings GM Ken Holland always credits assistant GM Jim Nill, director of amateur scouting Joe McDonnell and director of European scouting Hakan Anderson.

"Our scouting staff, our amateur scouts and Jim is in charge of that, to me have done a phenomenal job for years," agreed Wings head coach Mike Babcock.

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05-03-2012, 03:34 PM
  #85
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"Besides Holmström, Franzén, Datsyuk, Ericsson, and Zetterberg, Andersson has also been responsible for the selection by the Red Wings of Niklas Kronwall, Jiří Hudler, and Valtteri Filppula, among others.[23][24] In 2008, the Red Wings' top five post-season scorers (Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzén, Kronwall, and Hudler) had all been scouted and recommended to the team by Andersson."

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05-03-2012, 03:36 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gowings4013 View Post
this 100% attributing our draft success and failure to Holland needs to stop right now.

Here is a quote for you:

Wings GM Ken Holland always credits assistant GM Jim Nill, director of amateur scouting Joe McDonnell and director of European scouting Hakan Anderson.

"Our scouting staff, our amateur scouts and Jim is in charge of that, to me have done a phenomenal job for years," agreed Wings head coach Mike Babcock.
is that what i said, 100%?

what i believe i said was that i think the fools that go on and on and on about how brillant holland is, pointing to his draft savy, are clueless and baseless given his(and that includes his scouts) record over the last 10 years.

time and time and time again the same tired response is "well look how many cups we have won." well i am sorry but the work and reason for that was done 10 plus years ago and is simply still paying dividends.

you can disagree all you want and thats your call

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05-03-2012, 03:37 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by gowings4013 View Post
No, no, and no. The first 3 of those 4 were exclusively scouted by Hakan Andersson. Seriously you guys are killing me in this thread.
If you want to get technical then yes, Hakan was the scout responsible for a lot of those picks

All picks are still drafted by Holland though, his scouts only recommend/advise. Although Hakan definitely deserves a LARGE amount of credit for the Wings success over the past 20 years.

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Old
05-03-2012, 03:42 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
is that what i said, 100%?

what i believe i said was that i think the fools that go on and on and on about how brillant holland is, pointing to his draft savy, are clueless and baseless given his(and that includes his scouts) record over the last 10 years.

time and time and time again the same tired response is "well look how many cups we have won." well i am sorry but the work and reason for that was done 10 plus years ago and is simply still paying dividends.

you can disagree all you want and thats your call
Okay well to clarify, when I think of Ken Holland I do not think of him as someone who has incredible draft savy. I know the recommendations came from elsewhere and all he did was pull the trigger on the selection. What I credit him for is the ability to keep the picks together and surround them with good players, and different players every season, and have continued success. Even when there was no cap, when there was a cap, and with different trends in the league over his tenure as GM. Has he done some things I don't like. Sure. But his resume does speak volumes to what he has done in his time in Detroit. This past year I did not like several of the decisions he made so I have criticized him as of late. But saying his reputation was built on his ability to find draft gems is flat out inaccurate, which is all I wanted to bring up. That credit goes to the scouting department, and in the case of European players, Hakan Andersson.

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05-03-2012, 03:45 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
If you want to get technical then yes, Hakan was the scout responsible for a lot of those picks

All picks are still drafted by Holland though, his scouts only recommend/advise. Although Hakan definitely deserves a LARGE amount of credit for the Wings success over the past 20 years.
Who deserves more credit the person who discovered, scouted, and evaluated them? Or the person who phoned in the selection on draft day?

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05-03-2012, 03:54 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by gowings4013 View Post
Okay well to clarify, when I think of Ken Holland I do not think of him as someone who has incredible draft savy. I know the recommendations came from elsewhere and all he did was pull the trigger on the selection. What I credit him for is the ability to keep the picks together and surround them with good players, and different players every season, and have continued success. Even when there was no cap, when there was a cap, and with different trends in the league over his tenure as GM. Has he done some things I don't like. Sure. But his resume does speak volumes to what he has done in his time in Detroit. This past year I did not like several of the decisions he made so I have criticized him as of late. But saying his reputation was built on his ability to find draft gems is flat out inaccurate, which is all I wanted to bring up. That credit goes to the scouting department, and in the case of European players, Hakan Andersson.
good point,

then his reputation is based on the work done by others and he has simply more or less lived of those players(those draft picks) success to this day

without lidstrom, datsyuk, zetterberg and kronwall we would not be a playoff team and would not have had much sucess, certainly not win two cups in the last ten years.

given their age, its possible all are more likely to get injured. if they did at the same time we would be a bottom 10 team. now of course if any team lost its 4 or 5 best players the same would be true, but, no others teams 4 or 5 best players are all north of 30.

to me its the lack of star or elite or even very good talent between datsyuk and nyquist(or a player taken in the last 10 years) that bothers me and keeps me from being convinced holland can easily fix all that this summer

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05-03-2012, 03:58 PM
  #91
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but it's good to know that Jim Nill runs the draft almost 100%. Ken Holland gives input and the blame ultimately will and should fall on his shoulders, but Nill is the one who runs it.

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05-03-2012, 04:00 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Not sure if this has been mentioned but it's good to know that Jim Nill runs the draft almost 100%. Ken Holland gives input and the blame ultimately will and should fall on his shoulders, but Nill is the one who runs it.
thank you Heaton

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05-03-2012, 04:09 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by gowings4013 View Post
Who deserves more credit the person who discovered, scouted, and evaluated them? Or the person who phoned in the selection on draft day?
If he takes the blame when the pick is bad then he should get the credit for the good ones.

Although I agree the lions share of the work is done by Andersson and McDonnell's staff.

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05-03-2012, 04:51 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieHeartRedWingsFan View Post
It look like Zach Parise or Rick Nash will not come to Detroit.
Perhaps you can cite a source? Or can we assume you're just saying this?

Free agency begins in just less than two months. If Parise is there, we have as good a shot as anyone.

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05-03-2012, 04:54 PM
  #95
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I know it's silly, but I really want Nashville and NJ to lose so those guys don't get their hopes up over their current team.

Kovalchuk is nursing an injury, so maybe that will help!

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05-03-2012, 05:54 PM
  #96
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I know it's silly, but I really want Nashville and NJ to lose so those guys don't get their hopes up over their current team.
It's silly, selfish, a bit childish, and kind of unbecoming of a fan of the game of hockey (if you otherwise wouldn't be rooting against those teams), but I too am hoping they lose, for the same reason

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05-03-2012, 06:02 PM
  #97
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Absoultely Parise because you can get him in free agency and he comes off as a winning player. Nash isn't worth all that you'd have to give up to get him. I always favor free agency as a way to add something as long as you're paying market price.

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05-03-2012, 06:15 PM
  #98
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I give the biggest amount of leeway to Holland when it comes to drafting. Given the position the organization usually is drafting from, Holland/Nill usually are taking kids with serious issues in their game, whether it be size or skating. Since Hthe philosophy has always been to lean towards skill, we have a prospect pool that either has average skilled size, or poor/mediocre skating skill. Datsyuk and Zetterberg where lightning striking-typre of picks. Too expect Holland/nill to have a bunch of elite prospects in the system is unrealistic to say the least. I have a MUCH bigger issue with Holland and his contracts and inactivity in free agency than I do with his drafting.

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05-03-2012, 07:21 PM
  #99
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It's silly, selfish, a bit childish, and kind of unbecoming of a fan of the game of hockey (if you otherwise wouldn't be rooting against those teams), but I too am hoping they lose, for the same reason
I third that sentiment.

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05-05-2012, 06:27 PM
  #100
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I don't hear any news about Parise or Nash going to Detroit yet. I think they should go after Parise. Nash will cost Detroit alot of money and need to give up player for him.

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