HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

How far are you willing to see the owners push their agenda?

View Poll Results: How long are you willing to see the lockout last til the owners get their way?
3 seasons or more. 56 25.11%
2 full seasons. 17 7.62%
Extend the lockout halfway into next season if necessary. 36 16.14%
Just this season. 40 17.94%
The lockout should be over soon, the players' offer is reasonably close to what's needed. 48 21.52%
The lockout should end now, the players' offer is very generous. 17 7.62%
Until 3 months ago - the old cba was fine regardless of small market woes and owners losing money. 7 3.14%
Until 3 months ago - the owners are liars and have been making money all this time. 2 0.90%
Voters: 223. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-11-2004, 09:30 PM
  #26
MacDaddy TLC*
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Leafin La Vida Loca
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,478
vCash: 500
Until the NHLPA is destroyed, however long that takes.

MacDaddy TLC* is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 09:32 PM
  #27
FLYLine24
The Mac Truck
 
FLYLine24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 29,899
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDragoon
Who are you to say you know what my emotions and motivations are?

Oh wait...
You can tell the future, so you must be able to read my mind and, therefore, know my motivations.
Now you're telling me that the reason my team had to let some marque players go, was because they are inept, or, at the very least, didn't feel like paying "fair market value".
And, it had nothing to do with the fact that most hockey players are grossly overpaid because their value is tied to other grossly overpaid hockey players.
Thank you for enlightening me.[/sarcasm]
Most hockey players are overpaid? What is OVERpaid in your book? 1 million? LOL. The average salary is 1.8 million or even less..not sure of the exact...are they ALL overpaid? Overpaid in my book is over 5 million. And how many player make over 5 million? 7%???????? Yea MOST players are overpaid...your right on.

FLYLine24 is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 09:33 PM
  #28
MacDaddy TLC*
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Leafin La Vida Loca
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,478
vCash: 500
Brett Hull, probably the most in touch with reality player there is, has stated numerous time in interviews, 65% of the players are overpaid."

MacDaddy TLC* is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 09:40 PM
  #29
s7ark
Moderator
TheWorstEver
 
s7ark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Please, your just so upsest with have a EVEN playing field that your willing to give up hockey for as long as it takes to get it..talk about greed. Heres a note...at least half the teams would be gone after 3 years...including your OILERS that cant hold on to a player and then blames the system.
Seriously, are you drunk? This post doesn't make any sense. So either your drinking too much or I am not drinking enough


And I am with the majority, as long as it takes to fix the game. I am not sure a hard cap is the way to go, that might be a bit too strict and not leave teams with enough room to add players at the deadline for a cup run
and that is part of the fun with hockey, watching the deadline day trades

but a strict luxury tax system would be fine, something like 1$ after 45 million, 2$ after 55 million and 5$ after 60 million

__________________
Fire Eakins. Fire MacT. Fire Lowe. Clean house.
s7ark is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 09:43 PM
  #30
no13matssundin
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,257
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
See there NOT. They are bad yes, but your SO PRO-OWNER anything...and i mean ANYTHING that Bettman saids you buy. Its pointless debating with people like you. You think the only way the NHL will live is with a CAP..well when the sides do agree without a CAP..you will look like the idiot who followed and went by every word Bettman has said.
Its pointless for you because those of us who are from the pro-owner, pro-PA & pro-Fan camps are actually able to debate actual points instead of insults.

You should try it sometime. You might find debating will go a great deal better.

no13matssundin is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 09:45 PM
  #31
SPARTAKUS*
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hearst
Country: Canada
Posts: 680
vCash: 500
Let's not forget one thing, if this season is cancelled next season there will be about 500 players without contracts. Several players said that if the NHL doesn't change their tune about a salary cap,that they will start a new league next season. And I think a lot of the big names would jump at this opportunity just to stick it to the NHL

SPARTAKUS* is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 09:46 PM
  #32
IceDragoon
Registered User
 
IceDragoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: South of Sanity
Posts: 3,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Most hockey players are overpaid? What is OVERpaid in your book? 1 million? LOL. The average salary is 1.8 million or even less..not sure of the exact...are they ALL overpaid? Overpaid in my book is over 5 million. And how many player make over 5 million? 7%???????? Yea MOST players are overpaid...your right on.
Let me guess.
You have aspirations of becoming a lawyer.
You like to address one tiny phrase, in order to distract attention from "the elephant in the room".
Take a look at the percentage of revenues that NFL, NBA & MLB players make.
Then take a look at what percentage NHL players make, playing a game that gets bumped for dog shows on US TV.
Hockey players are grossly overpaid for what they deliver.

IceDragoon is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:00 PM
  #33
IceDragoon
Registered User
 
IceDragoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: South of Sanity
Posts: 3,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTSENS
Let's not forget one thing, if this season is cancelled next season there will be about 500 players without contracts. Several players said that if the NHL doesn't change their tune about a salary cap,that they will start a new league next season. And I think a lot of the big names would jump at this opportunity just to stick it to the NHL
And, just where are they going to play?
It seems to me that most of the owners own, or, hold long term leases on the arenas.
It's more likely that the owners would be starting a new league.
The players can say what they want, but, "saying" and "doing" are 2 different things.
They did a great job with the OSL, now, didn't they?!?

IceDragoon is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:03 PM
  #34
SPARTAKUS*
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hearst
Country: Canada
Posts: 680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDragoon
And, just where are they going to play?
It seems to me that most of the owners own, or, hold long term leases on the arenas.
It's more likely that the owners would be starting a new league.
The players can say what they want, but, "saying" and "doing" are 2 different things.
They did a great job with the OSL, now, didn't they?!?
If there is a will there's a way?

SPARTAKUS* is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:07 PM
  #35
Jack Canuck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Hawaii
Country: Canada
Posts: 621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTSENS
If there is a will there's a way?
So if the owners have the will to do what it takes to get cost certainty then they will find a way? :lol

Jack Canuck is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:09 PM
  #36
SPARTAKUS*
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hearst
Country: Canada
Posts: 680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Canuck
So if the owners have the will to do what it takes to get cost certainty then they will find a way? :lol

SPARTAKUS* is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:16 PM
  #37
djhn579
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tonawanda, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,747
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTSENS
Let's not forget one thing, if this season is cancelled next season there will be about 500 players without contracts. Several players said that if the NHL doesn't change their tune about a salary cap,that they will start a new league next season. And I think a lot of the big names would jump at this opportunity just to stick it to the NHL
So, how exactly would that work...

The players form their own league, so the CBA they have I'm sure will be extremely player friendly. It will take a lot of money to start a new league, money that the players don't have. They also just tried to do their own league, that didn't work very well. Where will they play? The NHL controls all the best arenas. What will they play for? The Stanley Cup? I don't think the NHL will give that up very easily.

Meanwhile, the NHL will not have to worry about the NHLPA anymore, so they will essentially have to re-write all of their rules and by-laws to function without a players union. Since the NHLPA walked away, they will be able to set up the league kind of like the WHA planned to. They planned to have a cap and that apparently didn't violate anti-trust laws, so why can't the NHL do the same? So, the owners, who have lot's of money will be running a league in direect competition with the players league, but will have much deeper pockets and much more experience running a league. How many players are going to turn down more money in a stable league to play in the players league? Maybe more of todays top players will start out there, but what about rookies and the average players? (I doubt the players would be able to get a 30 team league running from scratch...) Most of them will be looking the most money possible, and I doubt they could get that from the players league.

I see the players league barely getting off the ground, paying salaries far beyond revenues, and folding within 3 years, but that is just my opinion.

djhn579 is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:27 PM
  #38
coyoteshockeyfan
Registered User
 
coyoteshockeyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Coyote Country
Country: United States
Posts: 2,525
vCash: 500
As long as it takes to actually FIX the system. I wish the players understood that you cant get paid money that doesnt exist.

coyoteshockeyfan is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:29 PM
  #39
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteshockeyfan
As long as it takes to actually FIX the system. I wish the players understood that you cant get paid money that doesnt exist.
Or you could say that owners wouldn't agree to pay players money that they don't have .....

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:30 PM
  #40
Go Flames Go*
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 943
vCash: 500
However long its takes well that how long it takes then, dosent matter to me, as long as there is the right deal made, and the players are paid fairly.

Go Flames Go* is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:38 PM
  #41
s7ark
Moderator
TheWorstEver
 
s7ark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Or you could say that owners wouldn't agree to pay players money that they don't have .....

What choice do they have? The GMs have to try to ice the best team possible and if their best player wants to sit out for a year to get more money, they will. Then the fans are screaming to sign or trade the player , so either they buckle and drive the salaries up or trade them for less value because everyone know's they can't afford to sign him.

There needs to be a system in place to move the GMs from between the rock and the hard place.

Say this current proposal is signed. The Flames haen't signed Iggy yet. He want's 10 million a year. Calgary can't afford that. So they can trade him for less then he is worth, ice a horrible team and risk losing fans, or cave and keep driving up salaries every year. None of these options work well for the team.

s7ark is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:44 PM
  #42
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
What choice do they have? The GMs have to try to ice the best team possible and if their best player wants to sit out for a year to get more money, they will. Then the fans are screaming to sign or trade the player , so either they buckle and drive the salaries up or trade them for less value because everyone know's they can't afford to sign him.

There needs to be a system in place to move the GMs from between the rock and the hard place.

Say this current proposal is signed. The Flames haen't signed Iggy yet. He want's 10 million a year. Calgary can't afford that. So they can trade him for less then he is worth, ice a horrible team and risk losing fans, or cave and keep driving up salaries every year. None of these options work well for the team.
No, they let him sit, until he caves into a realistic salary, or they move him if and only if the move makes sense for the Flames. Bottom lines is that the teams/GM's/owners actually have to use the hammer when the hold it (pre 31), because god knows the players weild the hammer when they get the chance.


BTW Iggy can make the same $10 million demand whan there is a $40 million hard cap, which woud actually cause the Flames even more problems.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:44 PM
  #43
Habbadasher
Registered User
 
Habbadasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: My couch
Country: Germany
Posts: 1,679
vCash: 500
In most sports, players are getting 55 - 60 percent, in the NHL, they get 75 percent of revenues. It can't continue like this. The PA's offer of 24 % pay cut is illusional. It is meaningless because the owner's will loose revenues or haved raised expenses because of: raised minimums, less games played, relatively few players are actually under contract, and a few other clauses which I forget off the top of my head.
I have not heard Bettman say these things, I figured these issues out for myself. The PA offer is a PR sham.
It should take as long as it takes.

Habbadasher is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:51 PM
  #44
djhn579
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tonawanda, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,747
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
No, they let him sit, until he caves into a realistic salary, or they move him if and only if the move makes sense for the Flames. Bottom lines is that the teams/GM's/owners actually have to use the hammer when the hold it (pre 31), because god knows the players weild the hammer when they get the chance.


BTW Iggy can make the same $10 million demand whan there is a $40 million hard cap, which woud actually cause the Flames even more problems.
So for the sake of argument, he is now sitting, the team is losing games because he is not in the line up, attendance is falling, and fans and players are questioning the owners desire to spend to build a winning team. No one is making good trade offers because they know you are in a weak position.

Now what do they do?

djhn579 is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:52 PM
  #45
Jack Canuck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Hawaii
Country: Canada
Posts: 621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
BTW Iggy can make the same $10 million demand whan there is a $40 million hard cap, which woud actually cause the Flames even more problems.
Yeah he can demand that under a hard cap, but nobody will be willing to pay it. However, if there is not a cap then other teams will likely be willing to spend the cash if they have it.

Jack Canuck is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:55 PM
  #46
Accord
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 1,328
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Accord
The lockout should be over soon, the players' offer is reasonably close to what's needed.

Accord is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 10:56 PM
  #47
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
So for the sake of argument, he is now sitting, the team is losing games because he is not in the line up, attendance is falling, and fans and players are questioning the owners desire to spend to build a winning team. No one is making good trade offers because they know you are in a weak position.

Now what do they do?
They sit and wait, and they wait some more .. and either Iggy caves or they make a good deal ala Yashin for Spezza & Chara.

If Iggy's demands are so out of whach with reality the fans will be pissed at Iggy and not Sutter and the Flames, just like Sens fans were pissed at Yashin and not the Senators.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 11:08 PM
  #48
djhn579
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tonawanda, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,747
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
They sit and wait, and they wait some more .. and either Iggy caves or they make a good deal ala Yashin for Spezza & Chara.

If Iggy's demands are so out of whach with reality the fans will be pissed at Iggy and not Sutter and the Flames, just like Sens fans were pissed at Yashin and not the Senators.

Okay, they continue to sit. They lose more games and are fighting to get into playoff position, attendance is falling more and the complaints from fans are growing. The team is losing money. Still no good trade offers...

What do you do?



Do you think there is always a deal like Yashin for Spezza & Chara out there? That was either a lot of luck or extremely shrewd trading. That doesn't happen that often...

djhn579 is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 11:12 PM
  #49
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
Okay, they continue to sit. They lose more games and are fighting to get into playoff position, attendance is falling more and the complaints from fans are growing. The team is losing money. Still no good trade offers...


Do you think there is always a deal like Yashin for Spezza & Chara out there? That was either a lot of luck or extremely shrewd trading. That doesn't happen that often...
A few things

#1. Mos seats are season tickets and/or game plans and previously purchased, therefore no revenue is lost.

#2. The team would ba making more money as they would not be paying Iginla, thus drastically reducing payroll.

#3. If Iginla was available for trade the Flames would get a ton of very good offers, it would be up to Sutter to make the proper deal.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
12-11-2004, 11:25 PM
  #50
djhn579
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tonawanda, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,747
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
A few things

#1. Mos seats are season tickets and/or game plans and previously purchased, therefore no revenue is lost..
In some cities like Toronto, NYR, maybe Philly, but certainly not in all cities


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#2. The team would ba making more money as they would not be paying Iginla, thus drastically reducing payroll..
While they are not paying his salary, they are also losing games and fans, that cuts down on walk up fans that most cities rely on

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#3. If Iginla was available for trade the Flames would get a ton of very good offers, it would be up to Sutter to make the proper deal.
Some teams will make very good offers for Iginla, but only about 5 or 6 could afford him, even then they will not offer alot when they percieve that Calgary is dealing from a position of weakness.



It sounds easy when you say "just don't pay him if he is asking too much, let him sit", but this is exactly what happened when Peca sat out. The Sabres were losing games, fans and players were questioning the owners comitment to winning. The team stuck to their offer, and eventually traded Peca for two players that so far are not doing too well 3 years later. Hasek then forced a trade because he wanted to play for a team commited to winning. Taking a hard line on salaries didn't have very good results for us...

djhn579 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:18 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.