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Why is the KHL destroying European Hockey?

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06-28-2013, 10:27 AM
  #1
GlobeHockey
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Why is the KHL destroying European Hockey?

After what has happened here in Helsinki, it is apparent this strategy of expansion is going to effectively kill off domestic leagues in European countries. What makes sport great is the rivalries and traditions your club has. It's a shame won't be able to have our famous battles with our other Finnish clubs. What can be done to prevent this , and why is this necessary for European Hockey? The KHL really has no chance to compete with the NHL whether in terms of product on the ice or $ value, so why do the Russians intend on ruining traditions and legacies all across Europe? We have a legacy from when our club was formed in the 60's and all that is now ruined.

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06-28-2013, 10:31 AM
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Here we go.

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06-28-2013, 10:32 AM
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vsk92
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Sure I'll miss the HIFK - Jokerit matches.

But no-one made Jokerit join the KHL, it was a self made decision bu them to join the project and hopefully reep the potential benefits.

The question you should be asking is why did Jokerit decide to ruin the Finnish league

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06-28-2013, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlobeHockey View Post
After what has happened here in Helsinki, it is apparent this strategy of expansion is going to effectively kill off domestic leagues in European countries. What makes sport great is the rivalries and traditions your club has. It's a shame won't be able to have our famous battles with our other Finnish clubs. What can be done to prevent this , and why is this necessary for European Hockey? The KHL really has no chance to compete with the NHL whether in terms of product on the ice or $ value, so why do the Russians intend on ruining traditions and legacies all across Europe? We have a legacy from when our club was formed in the 60's and all that is now ruined.
These questions should be answered by Slovan Bratislava fans.

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06-28-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
These questions should be answered by Slovan Bratislava fans.
Not entirely comparable situations since the SM-Liiga >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Slovakian league.

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06-28-2013, 10:42 AM
  #6
GlobeHockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Not entirely comparable situations since the SM-Liiga >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Slovakian league.
Exactly, the amount of elite players we are producing here in Finland has never been higher, whereas there is a stagnant growth in Slovakia. We don't need this. Children are glued to the television for games, now why are they going to care about unkown Russian clubs, that their parents don't even know. What will be done to help the community in Helsinki if this league is taking our team? If nothing is done now the KHL will soon go on and try to ruin Swedish and Switzerland, like they have ruined Czech and Slovakia. Then Hockey will reach a new level of unimportance in Europe.

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06-28-2013, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Not entirely comparable situations since the SM-Liiga >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Slovakian league.
So basically very comparable, besides the fact that Finnish league is (was) of a better standard? We heard these exact moans from Bratislava fans last year. Giving up local rivalries, youngsters like Dano not getting a chance, fans turning their back to team, Russian invasion and so on and on...

And look what happened.

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06-28-2013, 10:46 AM
  #8
GlobeHockey
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
So basically very comparable, besides the fact that Finnish league is (was) of a better standard? We heard these exact moans from Bratislava fans last year. Giving up local rivalries, youngsters like Dano not getting a chance, fans turning their back to team, Russian invasion and so on and on...

And look what happened.
Explain what happen? Are you in Slovakia, and have you felt the effects in the rest of the country because of that decision? Is it helping grass roots Hockey in Slovakia?

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06-28-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlobeHockey View Post
After what has happened here in Helsinki, it is apparent this strategy of expansion is going to effectively kill off domestic leagues in European countries. What makes sport great is the rivalries and traditions your club has. It's a shame won't be able to have our famous battles with our other Finnish clubs. What can be done to prevent this , and why is this necessary for European Hockey? The KHL really has no chance to compete with the NHL whether in terms of product on the ice or $ value, so why do the Russians intend on ruining traditions and legacies all across Europe? We have a legacy from when our club was formed in the 60's and all that is now ruined.
actually i think khl will help european hockey. domestic leagues aren't competitive enough and they are basically development leagues for the nhl, and to some extent the khl. now, with possible bigger budget, let say 20m, jokerit could easily have every finnish non-nhl player, and the best finnish prospects could stay longer in finland before they evenutally end up in the nhl.

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06-28-2013, 10:50 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlobeHockey View Post
Explain what happen? Are you in Slovakia, and have you felt the effects in the rest of the country because of that decision?
I already acknowledged that we need Slovaks to fully explain the situation, feelings after a season and consequences.

Meanwhile, please, take a look how Slovan fans don't appreciate a win against a team from Nowherestan about which the fathers of the fans have heard nothing about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZoWmVwO87s

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06-28-2013, 10:50 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by billy piton View Post
actually i think khl will help european hockey. domestic leagues aren't competitive enough and they are basically development leagues for the nhl, and to some extent the khl. now, with possible bigger budget, let say 20m, jokerit could easily have every finnish non-nhl player, and the best finnish prospects could stay longer in finland before they evenutally end up in the nhl.
Competitive? You are try be funny? Sm Liga, 6 different winners in 6 past years, khl 3 in past 5 and it will be the very same for the next who knows how many year. We will have never have ability to compete and win in khl. You know how politics and money works in Russia. No one will come to Helsinki.

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06-28-2013, 10:51 AM
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Euro hockey federations and IIHF have been ruining euro (national) leagues and their clubs for decade or so, not KHL.

Hope following words help you to undertands the issue. The main problem of no-chance of Europe to challenge NHL is player´s transfer system.

Have a look at international player tranfers in football, hockey and basketball.

1) FIFA and FIBA ban international transfers of players under 18 yrs (exceptions if family moved or the player leaves country to study). IIHF does not ban international transfers of players under 18 yrs. Club can ban tranfer if the player has pro-contract. I would like to ask you how many players U18 have such pro-contract in Finland. Majority of U18 players, or almost nobody? If almost nobody, how can clubs keep their top prospects? I have no problem if euro players go to CHL (or slovaks/czechs to SHL/SM-Liiga) at the age of 16... I have problem if they go for free.

Quote:
A former member national association can only refuse to sign a LOA if one of the four reasons in section I article 2.2(c) exists


2.2 c)
The former member national association may only refuse to sign the transfer card (or LOA) if:1) the player is a signed professional player currently under a professional player contract (refer to section II article 4 for appeal procedures)
http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_u...s_20130204.pdf

2) FIFA and FIBA have mechanism of developing fee which must pay new club of a player to his former club... and this is paid if a player is/is not under contract. If a player is under contract, his club can ask transfer fee as well (in NBA case part of transfer fee is paid by player as I wrote earlier). In hockey there is not "development fee" if a player transfers from lets say SM-Liiga to KHL/SHL...

3) Club in basketball/football can ask for transfer fee if player is under contract. In hockey the club can ask for "transfer fee" if a player goes to KHL/SHL/NLA... but, as you said, this buyout is minimal because players have strong position in negotiations with clubs. As Jussi said, the SM-Liiga club has to accept KHL buyout clause because if the club refuses it, another SM-Liiga club will accept it. That is bad, bad behaviour...

If a player is transfered from euro club to NHL club, NHL pays only development fee (this 240 000 USD or so), but what if euro club wants more? Like Slavia wanted for Hertl (btw he has valid contract in czech rep, NHL does not have to respect it/ something impossible in basketball where NBA respects euro contracts. Why does not it work like that /respecting deals/ in hockey as well?).. or Tappara would want for Barkov??

KHL wants to change the transfer system, wants from NHL to respect euro contracts and to pay transfer fees... one step was done, NHL and KHL signed MoU, so NHL respects KHL contracts (oposite of Hertl case, can you see?) ... second step, paying transfer fees by NHL is impossible now, because new NHL PTA is signed and IIHF (euro federations) are satisfied by this agreement/dont want to change it. That is sad, KHL can not change the system if does not have support from Finland/Sweden/Swiss/Germany/Czechs.


Make your own conclusions. Like it or not, your choice. KHL doesnt like this system and it is different among KHL and other euro leagues/NHL.

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06-28-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlobeHockey View Post
Competitive? You are try be funny? Sm Liga, 6 different winners in 6 past years, khl 3 in past 5 and it will be the very same for the next who knows how many year. We will have never have ability to compete and win in khl. You know how politics and money works in Russia. No one will come to Helsinki.
i thought financially competitive.

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06-28-2013, 10:58 AM
  #14
GlobeHockey
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Euro hockey federations and IIHF have been ruining euro (national) leagues and their clubs for decade or so, not KHL.

Hope following words help you to undertands the issue. The main problem of no-chance of Europe to challenge NHL is player´s transfer system.
What are you talking about? How does that correlate with what this topic is about? IT doesn't matter to Finnish fans about how much money is gained from transfer fee, we wish all our best players many success in NHL. But why is SM Liiga being ruined because of a league's attempt for UNNECESSARY growth?


Last edited by GlobeHockey: 06-28-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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06-28-2013, 11:00 AM
  #15
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Basically, KHL is kinda ruining traditional league system in Europe, but trying to say they are ruining European hockey as such is flat out ridiculous.

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06-28-2013, 11:02 AM
  #16
billy piton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Euro hockey federations and IIHF have been ruining euro (national) leagues and their clubs for decade or so, not KHL.

Hope following words help you to undertands the issue. The main problem of no-chance of Europe to challenge NHL is player´s transfer system.

Have a look at international player tranfers in football, hockey and basketball.

1) FIFA and FIBA ban international transfers of players under 18 yrs (exceptions if family moved or the player leaves country to study). IIHF does not ban international transfers of players under 18 yrs. Club can ban tranfer if the player has pro-contract. I would like to ask you how many players U18 have such pro-contract in Finland. Majority of U18 players, or almost nobody? If almost nobody, how can clubs keep their top prospects? I have no problem if euro players go to CHL (or slovaks/czechs to SHL/SM-Liiga) at the age of 16... I have problem if they go for free.


http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_u...s_20130204.pdf

2) FIFA and FIBA have mechanism of developing fee which must pay new club of a player to his former club... and this is paid if a player is/is not under contract. If a player is under contract, his club can ask transfer fee as well (in NBA case part of transfer fee is paid by player as I wrote earlier). In hockey there is not "development fee" if a player transfers from lets say SM-Liiga to KHL/SHL...

3) Club in basketball/football can ask for transfer fee if player is under contract. In hockey the club can ask for "transfer fee" if a player goes to KHL/SHL/NLA... but, as you said, this buyout is minimal because players have strong position in negotiations with clubs. As Jussi said, the SM-Liiga club has to accept KHL buyout clause because if the club refuses it, another SM-Liiga club will accept it. That is bad, bad behaviour...

If a player is transfered from euro club to NHL club, NHL pays only development fee (this 240 000 USD or so), but what if euro club wants more? Like Slavia wanted for Hertl (btw he has valid contract in czech rep, NHL does not have to respect it/ something impossible in basketball where NBA respects euro contracts. Why does not it work like that /respecting deals/ in hockey as well?).. or Tappara would want for Barkov??

KHL wants to change the transfer system, wants from NHL to respect euro contracts and to pay transfer fees... one step was done, NHL and KHL signed MoU, so NHL respects KHL contracts (oposite of Hertl case, can you see?) ... second step, paying transfer fees by NHL is impossible now, because new NHL PTA is signed and IIHF (euro federations) are satisfied by this agreement/dont want to change it. That is sad, KHL can not change the system if does not have support from Finland/Sweden/Swiss/Germany/Czechs.


Make your own conclusions. Like it or not, your choice. KHL doesnt like this system and it is different among KHL and other euro leagues/NHL.
transfer fees are destroying football economy. every single top euro league has enormous debt because of them. basically, the whole european football is one big money laundry.

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06-28-2013, 11:03 AM
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SM-liiga is killing itself with help of Finnish Ice Hockey Federation: Kummola and posse.

if they had better management running the show maybe big club like Jokerit wouldn't have bolted away.

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06-28-2013, 11:08 AM
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The KHL is not forcing anyone to join the league. Foreign teams are joining the league voluntarily and at their own will.

That being said I'm not sure that the foreign expansion has any benefits for Russian hockey. And in my opinion the main task for the KHL should be development of Russian (and maybe countries of FSU) hockey.

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06-28-2013, 11:11 AM
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The KHL is not forcing anyone to join the league. Foreign teams are joining the league voluntarily and at their own will.

That being said I'm not sure that the foreign expansion has any benefits for Russian hockey. And in my opinion the main task for the KHL should be development of Russian (and maybe countries of FSU) hockey.
Peter again how many times does this has to be explained to you- KHL is NOT a developmental league,VHL is.

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06-28-2013, 11:11 AM
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But this thread is complete and utter overreaction. It`s hilarious really.

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06-28-2013, 11:14 AM
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But this thread is complete and utter overreaction. It`s hilarious really.
I apologize, perhaps I might overreacted, but I feel sad, and also I've had too many Karhu's so far this early evening.

But in all honesty, how will this benefit the city of Helsinki and Finnish Hockey? This is a step in the wrong direction. I understand if they want expand in different countries and grow Hockey in those countries, but this does not accomplish anything. Now we watch as they play games and never battle for a championship in a league where only couple of teams real have chance.

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06-28-2013, 11:15 AM
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Guys, you dont get it, sad.

Simple, how do you want the euro clubs to be "in good shape" if you dont have income from selling players? The money paid by NHL is not appropriate income, not covering development of players. It is not healthy model for feeder league like all in Europe (not KHL).

I dont want football model, but basketball´s.

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06-28-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by GlobeHockey View Post

But in all honesty, how will this benefit the city of Helsinki
Possibility of increased tourism, more business partnerships.

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06-28-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by GlobeHockey View Post
I apologize, perhaps I might overreacted, but I feel sad, and also I've had too many Karhu's so far this early evening.

But in all honesty, how will this benefit the city of Helsinki and Finnish Hockey? This is a step in the wrong direction. I understand if they want expand in different countries and grow Hockey in those countries, but this does not accomplish anything. Now we watch as they play games and never battle for a championship in a league where only couple of teams real have chance.
I am one of those KHL fans who respects your opinion and can see where you are comming from,but this was the choice by your teams owners,so nothing you could do about it.

Btw i have a question will you keep supporting the team in KHL or will you switch to some other sm liiga team (this is a question to all you finns)

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06-28-2013, 11:20 AM
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Peter again how many times does this has to be explained to you- KHL is NOT a developmental league,VHL is.
I'm not saying the KHL should be a player development league and I fully support foreign players playing in the KHL. But I don't see much benefit for Russian hockey for further foreign expansion.

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