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which politic do you prefer?

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Old
12-11-2004, 04:10 PM
  #1
bayern13
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which politic do you prefer?

In the case of a small season what would you do:

a playoff run or continue to rebuild?
Personnally I prefer a rebuild with trades like this:
to Philly Norstrom
to LA Seidenberg and a 2nd

To Florida: Straka
to LA: Huselius

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12-11-2004, 05:23 PM
  #2
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Don't like either trade, but I'm not averse to rebuilding some more.

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12-11-2004, 06:56 PM
  #3
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I think we could get more for Norstrom then in that deal.

I'd do the Straka one, but I doubt the Panthers would.

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12-12-2004, 01:43 AM
  #4
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If there's a season, it'll only be half (at most) of a normal one. Hence, whoever wins the SC could easily be written-off as "fluke" champions. I'd rather not compete for the Cup in a "fluke" year, but a "real" year. But hell, I'm not the one doing the competing, am I? LoL.

That said, I'd wait for the trading deadline and try to get as many draft picks as possible for guys like Miller, Straka, Cechmanek, Corvo (hey, we can always use another bag of pucks, right?), and Belanger (I truly believe his game will be "lessened" with the loss of his buddy, Lappy).

I truly wouldn't worry about putting together a top 6. The 'Narchs have a bonafide chance of winning the championship in a "real" AHL season. Why spoil it for them? So the Kings can have maybe a 17% chance of winning the Cup in a "fluke" season? Sorry, not worth it. Leave the Manchester players where they are.

Don't trade Norstrom. Dude, he's our freakin' captain. Don't resign Palffy this year, wait 'till next. Try to lose, dammit! The more we lose in this half-@ssed year, the more we win in the "real" years, hopefully with guys like Crosby (if we lose well enough!).

Yeah, that's my take. It makes a lot more sense for the Kings to do poorly in this 'Sydney Crosby season' and have the Monarchs compete at the best level possible than vice versa.

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12-12-2004, 08:12 AM
  #5
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I agree, our chances of winning it all This season would be far fetched. We would benefit a ton with a Jack Johnson, Brule and the like (I doubt we could suck enough to get Sidney). Imagine what our team would look like in 2-3 years? Could be real good, and we could be like how we are now, a hard working team tough to play against. Ya, I say we stink enough to get a top 5 pick and unload some Millers, Ebels, Strakas and if need be Conroys.

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12-12-2004, 08:57 AM
  #6
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I still don't know why we signed Conroy in the first place.

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12-12-2004, 11:46 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
I still don't know why we signed Conroy in the first place.
That's a damn good question.

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12-12-2004, 12:19 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
I still don't know why we signed Conroy in the first place.
Agree completely. Never been a big fan, and we shelled out lots of money for this guy. We already have somewhat of a clone in Armstrong, just a cheaper version. We made the same mistake with Miller. We finally have something to brag about with our youth, now we just need to groom them. That means playing time and giving them confidence.

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12-12-2004, 12:44 PM
  #9
Fat Elvis
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I think we signed him because AM is so hesitant to play the young guys. I still get the feeling that he doesn't trust Fro completely. AM is just more comfortable playing guys who turn 40 at a momments notice while guys like Gleason, Camms, Barney and even Fro get left out for the John Tripps of the world. I think AM would play a Brad Smyth over a Camms or Brown. Just an opinionated observation I could be way off base.

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12-12-2004, 12:46 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swinginutter
Agree completely. Never been a big fan, and we shelled out lots of money for this guy. We already have somewhat of a clone in Armstrong, just a cheaper version. We made the same mistake with Miller. We finally have something to brag about with our youth, now we just need to groom them. That means playing time and giving them confidence.
I dont think Conroy and Armstrong are all that close.

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Old
12-12-2004, 01:29 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KING ELVI
I think we signed him because AM is so hesitant to play the young guys. I still get the feeling that he doesn't trust Fro completely. AM is just more comfortable playing guys who turn 40 at a momments notice while guys like Gleason, Camms, Barney and even Fro get left out for the John Tripps of the world. I think AM would play a Brad Smyth over a Camms or Brown. Just an opinionated observation I could be way off base.
And my guess to the reason why, is because he's afraid of losing his job. It's become pretty clear that he has a hard time managing anyone who has any talent. If you're a 3rd line grinder...hey, you're AM's favorite player.

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12-12-2004, 01:38 PM
  #12
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Maybe he tried to say to the fans that the kings are still competitors to the playoff

If I were DT I'd tried to trade Steckel for Morosov instead of sign Conroy anyway we can maybe trade Conroy and Miller to Detroit for Datsuyk but I don't expect that the Redwings would do this trade

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12-12-2004, 02:49 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
I still don't know why we signed Conroy in the first place.

Just asking: Did you say the same thing when DT signed Trent Klatt?

Craig Conroy is a character player with better than average offense. He wins faceoffs, plays in all situations, and is an especially strong defensive player on a team that has a horrible lack of defensive minded players. Who wouldn't want a Selke candidate who can play on the PP and provide 50-70 points a season with talented linemates?

Think about it this way. When the kids have a couple of NHL seasons under their belts in about 3-4 years, Conroy will be the exact type of salty veteran who plays on the bottom two lines on a team who can do damage in the playoffs. Every team with Cup aspirations has those type players who provide leadership and solid play in limited minutes.

Conroy is not the typical #1 center, but in todays' NHL, what is a #1 center anyway? The game isn't played on paper, and chemistry is more important than outright skill level. What other "#1" centers are available right now? Who says Taylor is done looking for a pure offensive center?

By the way folks, Armstrong is nothing but a stop-gap until a better option comes along. Please don't insult Conroy's accomplishments by comparing him to a one-way limited career AHL-er who wouldn't even have a job in the NHL if we had better depth at center. Army has had some impressive games to be sure, but he is not a player who can be expected to provide any consistent offense, and his d-game is non-existant.

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Old
12-12-2004, 02:58 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KING ELVI
I think we signed him because AM is so hesitant to play the young guys. I still get the feeling that he doesn't trust Fro completely. AM is just more comfortable playing guys who turn 40 at a momments notice while guys like Gleason, Camms, Barney and even Fro get left out for the John Tripps of the world. I think AM would play a Brad Smyth over a Camms or Brown. Just an opinionated observation I could be way off base.
When the hell did John Tripp get more playing time over Alexander Frolov, or even a healthy Scott Barney? Cammalleri was in Manchester for development purposes, and Tim Gleason actually played his way out of the NHL at mid-season. I love Gleason, but I think a lot of us are convienently forgetting how badly he struggled at times last year.

AM has definitely made some questionable decisions over the last few years, but who could possibly argue that it is better for Cammalleri to play 4 minutes a game on the 4th line on a non-playoff team versus playing 18-20 important minutes on a successful AHL team?

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Old
12-12-2004, 03:58 PM
  #15
Ziggy Stardust
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Would you guys be opposed to having a Brian Rolston or Mike Peca or John Madden or Kris Draper or Todd Marchant or Michal Handzus or Steve Rucchin?

Because that is the class of centers Craig Conroy belongs with. He is a big upgrade over Jozef Stumpel and will have a bigger impact on this club, especially on the special teams and in the faceoff circle. He is a very accurate passer and has a good set of wheels as well.

The money Conroy got is in the right ballpark when you look at what the players I listed earn. Some of you are just never satisfied, and doing a complete rebuild once again is a giant leap backwards. A guy like Frolov or Garon or Visnovsky or Gleason or Avery aren't going to learn much from a rebuilding team.

When are you guys going to open your eyes, quit whining and hoping for a full rebuild? A season after they bring back Luc, sign Klatt, trade for Straka, and still have Norstrom, Miller, Armstrong, etc. under contract, and also acquire Garon, Quintal and sign Conroy.

What does it tell the players and the fans when you make all these moves to put the team in contention.. and a season after decide that the organization is better off getting rid of all the veterans and go through another rebuilding process. To me it shows the lack of direction by an organization. The past two seasons were an abberation that the team has to put behind them. I personally think this club has the right mix to contend (very similar to what the Sharks have done). With a couple of other additions on the offense, I think the Kings will be in good shape.

The voice of the fans is never the voice of reason.

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12-12-2004, 08:53 PM
  #16
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If Murray won't play young guys, he should be shown the door. I know he is an excellent coach, but maybe he is not the guy for this team at this point in time. There is no way that Frolov should not be getting the most ice time for forwards on this team. He should be playing every PP and maybe even PK.

With the guys we have in Manchester more or less ready for the NHL, such as Gleason, Grebs, Brown, Cammy, Lehoux, Barney, Clarke, maybe Kanko, and guys in Europe like Karlsson and Tukonen, we need a coach that will play young guys.

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12-12-2004, 09:14 PM
  #17
Ziggy Stardust
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I laugh every time someone brings up the "Andy Murray dislikes youth" line. For your information, Frolov averaged 4th amongst all Kings forwards in average time on ice. The three forwards ahead of Frolov... Palffy, Stumpel and Straka.
Frolov averaged over 2 mins per game on the PK, only behind Belanger, Stumpel, Palffy and Lappy in average PK ice time per game.

Frolov also averaged over 2 mins per game on the PP as well.
Overall, he was 7th amongst forwards in shifts per game (23 shifts). How can anyone say Andy Murray has been mishandling Frolov's development? Here is some news for you, Andy Murray decided to use Frolov on the PK. Andy Murray places Frolov on the top 2 lines.

It didn't seem like other youngsters have been hampered by having Andy Murray as the coach. Remember Eric Belanger's rookie season? Or Lubomir Visnovsky? Hey didn't Dustin Brown stick around in the NHL the entire season (aside from his down time due to injuries). Wouldn't Sean Avery be considered a youngster? Didn't seem like he was mishandled either.

I get sick of reading the constant whining from the uninformed fans who can't take a few minutes to check the facts.

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12-12-2004, 09:41 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
I laugh every time someone brings up the "Andy Murray dislikes youth" line. For your information, Frolov averaged 4th amongst all Kings forwards in average time on ice. The three forwards ahead of Frolov... Palffy, Stumpel and Straka.
Frolov averaged over 2 mins per game on the PK, only behind Belanger, Stumpel, Palffy and Lappy in average PK ice time per game.

Frolov also averaged over 2 mins per game on the PP as well.
Overall, he was 7th amongst forwards in shifts per game (23 shifts). How can anyone say Andy Murray has been mishandling Frolov's development? Here is some news for you, Andy Murray decided to use Frolov on the PK. Andy Murray places Frolov on the top 2 lines.
Those are the facts, yes. BUT, I don't think fans will ever forgive Murray for playing Craig johnson, Chartrand, Lappy over Frolov (his rookie season). Frolov's PP time did increase last season only after Palffy, Straka, Stumpel, and Armstrong ALL went down! Murray used frolov on the PP only because there was noone else to put out there.

Its the truth though, murray does not like giving responsibility to young players. But then again, what coach does? (ron wilson maybe?).

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Old
12-12-2004, 10:12 PM
  #19
Ziggy Stardust
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Why put players in a position in which they are prone to make mistakes? I think the organization is doing what is best for these players. For what reasonable reason would a coach hold back a player from progressing? Aren't coaches paid to put players in a position to succeed? And I don't know about you guys but I would say Frolov's first two seasons and his progress has been on the upside.
The same can't be said about Chistov eh?

Notice how many veteran players also have had some of their best seasons playing under Andy Murray? Look at how much Smolinski improved after everyone in Long Island called him a lazy bum. Adam Deadmarsh had his most productive seasons in his career as a King. Mathieu Schneider's numbers went up... Derek Armstrong as well... Trent Klatt... I can go on and on.

And for your information... look up the numbers... Frolov averaged more ice time than Chartrand and Johnson. He was also 5th in average PP ice time behind Allison, Palffy, Deadmarsh and Armstrong.

You guys need to quit being stubborn and take notice that Frolov is developing into a great two-way player. And if you may recall, many scouting reports wondered about Frolov's backchecking ability and sense of the game. I think Andy Murray's coaching and Frolov's eagerness to learn and adapt have been key factors in the development in Frolov's hockey sense and abilities in both ends of the ice.

I'd love to find all those negative comments Bruins fans were sending Pat Burns's way over the treatment of Joe Thornton during his rookie season. That is exactly what some of you are doing with Andy Murray's approach. Maybe you should all list your coaching experiences and resumes.

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12-13-2004, 01:11 AM
  #20
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You know ZS, I never thought of it that way. Dang we picked up Conroy and Garon, we already have such power houses in Miller, Straka, Cechmanek, a 40yr old Luc, Quintal and a 2nd line center of Armstrong. The cup is so close you can smell it, oh except we haven't made the playoffs in 2 years and we haven't resigned Ziggy(who is the only reason we came close to getting the 8th seed). Heck ZS, if our lineup stays healthy all season, I'd bet we could get knocked out of the playoffs the last game instead of a week earlier. But you and Bland are great armchair quarterbacks and I'm just a whiner. And you can't compare playing guys like Smoke, Deader, Schneider, and Army and them having fantastics seasons. Smoke is a 2nd line center, Deader was the main piece to the Blake trade, and Schneider was and is great on the power play which did very well that season. But if you guys think that our team is a contender, well done and keep the faith. My belief is in our future 2-4 years down the road and I don't have faith in the Miller's, Straka's and Conroy's of our team. I like Conroy, and I'm sure our fans will get to love him like we do Klatt, but his signing doesn't bring the cup any closer without a better surrounding cast. I need a nap.

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12-13-2004, 02:07 AM
  #21
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2 min per game on the PP is laughable for Frolov. I'd bet he was playing more than that on the PP for the Russians in the World Cup. And that team is umpteen more times skilled than the Kings of last year.

The real question is how much ice time would Fro get if we had a healthy team last year. Don't forget we set an NHL record for man games lost.

I'm not saying AM "dislikes youth". I am sure he is a great teacher and loves working with young guys. But just judging from general sentiments around this place, assuming he does, there may be a problem in a couple years. That's all I was saying.

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Old
12-13-2004, 07:37 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Would you guys be opposed to having a Brian Rolston or Mike Peca or John Madden or Kris Draper or Todd Marchant or Michal Handzus or Steve Rucchin?

Because that is the class of centers Craig Conroy belongs with. He is a big upgrade over Jozef Stumpel and will have a bigger impact on this club, especially on the special teams and in the faceoff circle. He is a very accurate passer and has a good set of wheels as well.

The money Conroy got is in the right ballpark when you look at what the players I listed earn. Some of you are just never satisfied, and doing a complete rebuild once again is a giant leap backwards. A guy like Frolov or Garon or Visnovsky or Gleason or Avery aren't going to learn much from a rebuilding team.

When are you guys going to open your eyes, quit whining and hoping for a full rebuild? A season after they bring back Luc, sign Klatt, trade for Straka, and still have Norstrom, Miller, Armstrong, etc. under contract, and also acquire Garon, Quintal and sign Conroy.

What does it tell the players and the fans when you make all these moves to put the team in contention.. and a season after decide that the organization is better off getting rid of all the veterans and go through another rebuilding process. To me it shows the lack of direction by an organization. The past two seasons were an abberation that the team has to put behind them. I personally think this club has the right mix to contend (very similar to what the Sharks have done). With a couple of other additions on the offense, I think the Kings will be in good shape.

The voice of the fans is never the voice of reason.
Sure we are better than the Pens and the Caps, but still we miss a few pieces to be considered contenders...A legit#1 center, a couple of top 6 wingers for instance.

Garon is projected to become our starter very soon, but the truth is he's untested as #1 goalie, our arguably best Dman (Lubo) is injury prone and behind him, now that Slodry's gone, the only other PP quarterback we have is Dempsey. I can't even imagine Miller playing in a full season, while Gleason and Grebs are still young. Matty is Matty, but can we expect some offense from him? Uh, no. Ah, there's also Corvo, but who cares about Corvo...same about Quintal.

On offense, we have a few young kids knocking on the door: I'm sure AM will take a long look on Cammy, Lehoux, Barney and Brown once and if the season will start. They have the potential to be top 6 forwards in the NHL, but they still have to prove it, which is a complete different thing. This said, we have a rising star (Alex) and a good 2-way center (Conroy), a future hall of hamer playing in his last season (Luc), Army (who'll be #3 center on a playoff contender roster), Klatt and a bunch of grinders (Avery, EBell, TK, etc)

There's a bunch of pretty good players out there on the market (Demitra, Murray, Ziggy among others), but I simply can't see the Kings involved in a bidding war for them, even if there's a new CBA and we could afford them. I say, let the kids play, as the Monarchs are doing, and see what they do. We already lost 2 seasons due to injuries, I wouldn't mind to miss the playoff once again if we'd give our young players a chance to jell together and grow.

Just my 2 cents...

Ah, I was forgetting...about the trade proposal
1. Norstrom to PHI - NO W-A-Y
2. Straka for Huselius - I won't mind getting rid of Straka before he becomes a UFA, but I don't think the Panthers will be so stupid to do it. This said, Huselius is a soft, streaky forward and we don't need him. (He'll likely get injured in LA)


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Old
12-13-2004, 12:06 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KING ELVI
You know ZS, I never thought of it that way. Dang we picked up Conroy and Garon, we already have such power houses in Miller, Straka, Cechmanek, a 40yr old Luc, Quintal and a 2nd line center of Armstrong. The cup is so close you can smell it, oh except we haven't made the playoffs in 2 years and we haven't resigned Ziggy(who is the only reason we came close to getting the 8th seed). Heck ZS, if our lineup stays healthy all season, I'd bet we could get knocked out of the playoffs the last game instead of a week earlier. But you and Bland are great armchair quarterbacks and I'm just a whiner. And you can't compare playing guys like Smoke, Deader, Schneider, and Army and them having fantastics seasons. Smoke is a 2nd line center, Deader was the main piece to the Blake trade, and Schneider was and is great on the power play which did very well that season. But if you guys think that our team is a contender, well done and keep the faith. My belief is in our future 2-4 years down the road and I don't have faith in the Miller's, Straka's and Conroy's of our team. I like Conroy, and I'm sure our fans will get to love him like we do Klatt, but his signing doesn't bring the cup any closer without a better surrounding cast. I need a nap.
I never stated that we are contending now. Players like Norstrom, Klatt and now Conroy are the type of character guys you keep around to accelerated the development process of the youngsters. They don't take short-cuts, play every shift with the same intensity, and are clean livers. Each of them will still be able to play important roles in limited action at the end of their careers. Straka has always been a hard worker, and Miller gives everything that his body will allow, but those two are transitory players who can be moved, if possible, when the time is right.

I stand by my statement - this team will be a division winner in three years, and a realistic Cup contender shortly thereafter. However, it can't be done without the veteran insight that these players will provide.

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Old
12-13-2004, 12:09 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KING ELVI
I agree, our chances of winning it all This season would be far fetched. We would benefit a ton with a Jack Johnson, Brule and the like (I doubt we could suck enough to get Sidney).

If the lockout lasts past the draft, and the draft is cancelled, do we have a shot at Crosby? Does he become a free agent, or does he have to wait for the next draft?

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12-13-2004, 12:29 PM
  #25
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As for Frolov's playing time, I strongly believe Murray did the right thing in easing Frolov into more playing time near the end of the season. I love Frolov, but there were times where Frolov coasted, failed to backcheck, took extremely long shifts, failed to shoot, and as a young player, he needed to learn from these mistakes. It was tough to watch guys like Tripp or Lappy occasionally get more PT, but it is a necessary evil which all young players must face. We have seen how rushing young players can be detrimental to their development, especially when they are new to American culture (see Aki Berg, Olli Jokinen...C'mon, I saw Frolov wearing a grandma's frock at Healthsouth!). As a result, we place too much pressure on them; they can't all be Kovalchuks and make the immediate jump. I think what Murray is doing is similar to what Spezza is forced to go thru in Ottawa; in the end, Frolov will be a better player in both ends. I expect his PT to increase dramatically when/if there is a season.

As for Conroy, I think he will add a little offense and fit in the Kings' system well. More importantly, he will be a team leader and veteran presence for the young players. After the departure of Lappy, who on the team will hold players accountable and be a vocal leader? I believe Norstrom is more of a leader on the ice; Conroy will be the veteran that younger players will respect and listen to. In addition, he has some pretty good offense, especially if a big scoring winger is added (i.e. Glen Murray, Palffy). It's like what we did in Manchester. We didn't sign Smyth because we believed his scoring would put the Monarchs over the top; rather, his veteran leadership will help the development of the younguns....

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