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Old
12-13-2004, 02:55 PM
  #26
Fat Elvis
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Bland, I like Klatt and Matty and like what they bring each night. Miller signed a huge contract and went right into the tank with his play and injuries. Straka needs to be part of a high power talented line which we lack with our currant players. Klatt is a stud, but really he's a 3rd line guy. Conroy is a good 2 way player and a good piece to a well stocked team that can compete now, which is not the Kings. I agree with you that our prime years will be in 2-4 years. Can Conroy help for the 3 years of his contract? absolutely. Do cup contenders have guys like him on their team? Sure do. Are those teams much deeper than the Kings? Without question.
What are some solutions that You think will lead us into a cup contending team in 2-4 years? I think we need more talent in every area, do we do that through the daft or do we trade some of our youth for that talent. I think we can do both, but right now we are in a holding pattern until our youth get that chance to showcase like they are in Manchester. I think if we go through another mediocre season we have to cut some of the age loose so the kids play. We already have a great idea how the aging play, time for some new blood. Just *my* opinion.

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12-13-2004, 10:50 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KING ELVI
Bland, I like Klatt and Matty and like what they bring each night. Miller signed a huge contract and went right into the tank with his play and injuries. Straka needs to be part of a high power talented line which we lack with our currant players. Klatt is a stud, but really he's a 3rd line guy. Conroy is a good 2 way player and a good piece to a well stocked team that can compete now, which is not the Kings. I agree with you that our prime years will be in 2-4 years. Can Conroy help for the 3 years of his contract? absolutely. Do cup contenders have guys like him on their team? Sure do. Are those teams much deeper than the Kings? Without question.
What are some solutions that You think will lead us into a cup contending team in 2-4 years? I think we need more talent in every area, do we do that through the daft or do we trade some of our youth for that talent. I think we can do both, but right now we are in a holding pattern until our youth get that chance to showcase like they are in Manchester. I think if we go through another mediocre season we have to cut some of the age loose so the kids play. We already have a great idea how the aging play, time for some new blood. Just *my* opinion.

What you do is keep around a small number of gritty character players who can still excel at their roles, preferably one at each position, to mentor the younger players moving into the top spots. The remainder of the veterans are moved, even for meager value, but only once a youngster is ready to move up.

The most important aspect is that you don't put a young player in a position where they are destined to fail, ala Jamie Storr. Frolov has been brought along absolutely perfectly. How anyone could find fault for Murray's slow-cooking of A-Fro is beyond me. He seems such a happy-go-lucky kid, so why put him in a position to deal with more pressure than necessary? He's on schedule to be a 85-90 point player within three years, which is a testament to both the player and the organization that has guided his development.

Take Grebeshkov for example. He is obviously a talented young man, but it would be a huge mistake to throw him to the wolves right now. Did we not learn anything from Darryl Sydor? Sure he ultimately worked his way into an effective NHL'er, but that was largely due to being moved to a team that could let him learn from a veteran playoff caliber roster. Sydor has never really lived up to his potential even though he has his name on the Cup. Let Grebeshkov learn the culture, and let his body mature at the level where his confidence won't be destroyed along the way.

At the end of the next actual season, we will see Robitaille, Straka, Cechmanek, and Armstrong off of the roster. Miller may be traded if he can stay healthy long enough to make an impression on a playoff team. You hope that the kids are ready at that point to step into those big roles, but you absolutely have to have some veterans there to ease the transition. Klatt, Conroy and Norstrom are such good role models for Brown, Cammalleri, Grebeshkov and Gleason, that you can't afford to let them go. You could say the same about Lappy, but he priced himself off of the team. I'm happy for his family that they will have financial security, and I can completely understand why DT let him go, but damn I'll miss him.

Players like Stumpel, Carter, Straka, Cechmanek and Armstrong are stop-gappers who hold roster spots while the organization's true goal of core-youth development mature at their proper pace. There is no reason to rush the process, except to maybe make one playoff round to please the fans and fill the coffers. This team finally has a long term goal, and I for one am extremely happy to see it.

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12-13-2004, 11:12 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bland
What you do is keep around a small number of gritty character players who can still excel at their roles, preferably one at each position, to mentor the younger players moving into the top spots. The remainder of the veterans are moved, even for meager value, but only once a youngster is ready to move up.

The most important aspect is that you don't put a young player in a position where they are destined to fail, ala Jamie Storr. Frolov has been brought along absolutely perfectly. How anyone could find fault for Murray's slow-cooking of A-Fro is beyond me. He seems such a happy-go-lucky kid, so why put him in a position to deal with more pressure than necessary? He's on schedule to be a 85-90 point player within three years, which is a testament to both the player and the organization that has guided his development.

Take Grebeshkov for example. He is obviously a talented young man, but it would be a huge mistake to throw him to the wolves right now. Did we not learn anything from Darryl Sydor? Sure he ultimately worked his way into an effective NHL'er, but that was largely due to being moved to a team that could let him learn from a veteran playoff caliber roster. Sydor has never really lived up to his potential even though he has his name on the Cup. Let Grebeshkov learn the culture, and let his body mature at the level where his confidence won't be destroyed along the way.

At the end of the next actual season, we will see Robitaille, Straka, Cechmanek, and Armstrong off of the roster. Miller may be traded if he can stay healthy long enough to make an impression on a playoff team. You hope that the kids are ready at that point to step into those big roles, but you absolutely have to have some veterans there to ease the transition. Klatt, Conroy and Norstrom are such good role models for Brown, Cammalleri, Grebeshkov and Gleason, that you can't afford to let them go. You could say the same about Lappy, but he priced himself off of the team. I'm happy for his family that they will have financial security, and I can completely understand why DT let him go, but damn I'll miss him.

Players like Stumpel, Carter, Straka, Cechmanek and Armstrong are stop-gappers who hold roster spots while the organization's true goal of core-youth development mature at their proper pace. There is no reason to rush the process, except to maybe make one playoff round to please the fans and fill the coffers. This team finally has a long term goal, and I for one am extremely happy to see it.
Didn't Army just sign a 2 year deal before the CBA?

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12-14-2004, 12:15 AM
  #29
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Bland I understand what you are saying, good post. But Sydor did have some mentors in Huddy, Coffee ( for a part of a season), Robinson and other journeymen. It's hard to compare the way this organization treated their youth from 5-8 years ago to the way they are treated today. 2 completely different organizations. Back then they had no choice but to play those 1st round picks right away, today all these kids hav had at least 2 years of seasoning either in the A or in Europe elite leagues. But I do understand your position.

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12-14-2004, 05:50 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayern13
In the case of a small season what would you do:

a playoff run or continue to rebuild?
Personnally I prefer a rebuild with trades like this:
to Philly Norstrom
to LA Seidenberg and a 2nd
I think that Seidenberg was traded earlier this year...

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Old
12-15-2004, 10:57 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
I laugh every time someone brings up the "Andy Murray dislikes youth" line. For your information, Frolov averaged 4th amongst all Kings forwards in average time on ice. The three forwards ahead of Frolov... Palffy, Stumpel and Straka.
Frolov averaged over 2 mins per game on the PK, only behind Belanger, Stumpel, Palffy and Lappy in average PK ice time per game.

Frolov also averaged over 2 mins per game on the PP as well.
Overall, he was 7th amongst forwards in shifts per game (23 shifts). How can anyone say Andy Murray has been mishandling Frolov's development? Here is some news for you, Andy Murray decided to use Frolov on the PK. Andy Murray places Frolov on the top 2 lines.

It didn't seem like other youngsters have been hampered by having Andy Murray as the coach. Remember Eric Belanger's rookie season? Or Lubomir Visnovsky? Hey didn't Dustin Brown stick around in the NHL the entire season (aside from his down time due to injuries). Wouldn't Sean Avery be considered a youngster? Didn't seem like he was mishandled either.

I get sick of reading the constant whining from the uninformed fans who can't take a few minutes to check the facts.
Following this thread got funnier by the minute. Next time that I need to be informed, i'll make sure I check with you. Your knowledge is unprecedented. You can break out stats all you want. But they're not based on day one of these players arrival onto the big scene. And, sure they need to earn it, but some have shown quite capable, only to be demoted to fourth line and Manchester to boot. AM has completely mishandled our youngsters and like I said in another thread, the league today is run on robotic systems. AM prefers certain robots over young flashy players. Yes, you need capable two-way players, but the team is one big puzzle and he thinks dilluting the lines into four scoring lines will work. News flash it didn't! We've stunk the last two years and it wasn't only due to injuries.
You also use San Jose as an example which is completely out of left field. For your information they got rid of their whole core and franchise players, to go with youth instead. They were supposed to finish dead last in the Pac last year, only to wipe every ones ***** all over the rink. It was all youth! And the veterans that were still there got shipped this summer.
You're points are well taken, but like i've said a million times this team has a major identity crisis. We're finally building through the draft only to see them rot away somewhere else. Sounds cool to me!

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12-15-2004, 11:09 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bland
Just asking: Did you say the same thing when DT signed Trent Klatt?

Craig Conroy is a character player with better than average offense. He wins faceoffs, plays in all situations, and is an especially strong defensive player on a team that has a horrible lack of defensive minded players. Who wouldn't want a Selke candidate who can play on the PP and provide 50-70 points a season with talented linemates?

Think about it this way. When the kids have a couple of NHL seasons under their belts in about 3-4 years, Conroy will be the exact type of salty veteran who plays on the bottom two lines on a team who can do damage in the playoffs. Every team with Cup aspirations has those type players who provide leadership and solid play in limited minutes.

Conroy is not the typical #1 center, but in todays' NHL, what is a #1 center anyway? The game isn't played on paper, and chemistry is more important than outright skill level. What other "#1" centers are available right now? Who says Taylor is done looking for a pure offensive center?

By the way folks, Armstrong is nothing but a stop-gap until a better option comes along. Please don't insult Conroy's accomplishments by comparing him to a one-way limited career AHL-er who wouldn't even have a job in the NHL if we had better depth at center. Army has had some impressive games to be sure, but he is not a player who can be expected to provide any consistent offense, and his d-game is non-existant.
What accomplishments?
Yes, I do acknowledge that Conroy is a very good two-way player, and yes his two way game is better than Army's. But Army plays better on the offensive side than Conroy.
Army put up the same kind of points with Ziggy that Conroy put with Iggy. Who are you going to play with Conroy now? Army has proven that he can score and play with anyone. He has earned his right to be here, and on most nights he was the best player on the ice. His defence ain't that bad either. Believe me if Conroy is used in the capacity as a number one center for the next three to four years many of you will be dissappointed. AM stresses two way play, but every one has a role, and Conroy didn't answer what we needed for the last two years.
I know INJURIES! That can also be scaled down if AM ever plays a true heavyweight. I know...........they're no longer in today's NHL. Funny thing is 29 other teams have em'!

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12-16-2004, 12:34 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swinginutter
What accomplishments?
Yes, I do acknowledge that Conroy is a very good two-way player, and yes his two way game is better than Army's. But Army plays better on the offensive side than Conroy.
Army put up the same kind of points with Ziggy that Conroy put with Iggy. Who are you going to play with Conroy now? Army has proven that he can score and play with anyone. He has earned his right to be here, and on most nights he was the best player on the ice. His defence ain't that bad either. Believe me if Conroy is used in the capacity as a number one center for the next three to four years many of you will be dissappointed. AM stresses two way play, but every one has a role, and Conroy didn't answer what we needed for the last two years.
I know INJURIES! That can also be scaled down if AM ever plays a true heavyweight. I know...........they're no longer in today's NHL. Funny thing is 29 other teams have em'!
You have got to be kidding me. The only thing comparable between Craig Conroy and Derek Armstrong is that they both shoot right-handed.

You think Conroy doesn't fill a void, but support playing Armstrong in a primary offensive role? Army's a great story of perserverance and dedication, but face it - he wouldn't get a sniff on any other NHL roster. The only reason he is even in the league is because he's one of Murray's foot soldiers that you were whining about in your other post. He has an above average shot release, and average-to-below-average everything else. Personally, I like the guy and hope the best for him and his family, but he cannot be placed in a role where he is counted on to provide any sort of consistant offense. The only place on the ice where he isn't a liability is from the face-off circles on in.

Conroy isn't a traditional #1 center by any means, but if you want to play the game on paper alone, then Armstrong should be in Manchester or back in Europe. My point is that this game isn't played on Playstations or Fantasy league stat sheets. Conroy has every quality desirable for a veteran on a youthful team, plus he can contribute both offensively and especially defensively on a team that lacks defensive-minded players. Not only that, but who's space is he taking? Lehoux wasn't even close to being an NHL'er in June. Cammalleri is probably too small to play center in the big league, but after this season in the AHL he may get a better look from management. Name one other center in the organization that is even remotely close to making the jump to the NHL. Try naming any other UFA center signed in this off-season that is better than Conroy for this team. Should we trade youth for a veteran "#1" center? Hell no. Resign Stumpel? Somehow I don't think you would take this option either.

And another thing, San Jose is a prime example of what this team can accomplish if given time to develop. Their core players that lead to the division title and playoff run (Marleau, Sturm, Stuart, Hannan, Nabokov, etc.) are young veterans, not youthful prospects thrown into the fire by an overzealous GM. They were able to learn the game and grow into their bodies for several seasons by playing behind the likes of Gary Suter, Owen Nolan, Vinnie Damphousse, Mike Ricci, Bryan Marchment, Arturs Irbe, etc. Only Mike Rathje was able to immediately step into a primary role. Look at Marleau - how many seasons went by while the Shark fans were waiting for a breakout? Look at Pat Falloon, how well did he develop when he was immediately inserted into the role of #1 scoring option without an ounce of AHL or IHL seasoning? It's taken that team several years to be able to cast off the veterans they relied so heavily on, and it was only because the young players had time to mature properly. This is the course proven to work time and time again. Right now it sucks for us fans because we can't ice a winner, but we will be far better off for it in the very near future.

As far as the heavyweights go, you are talking about a coach who played Stu m-*** Grimson in several playoff games. This talk about Murray not dressing enforcers is wearing so thin you can see right through it. Give Murray a quality tough guy and he'll see some minutes. Can you honestly say that Kip Brennan deserved more time than he received? What about Ken Belanger? Neither of those guys can contribute anything to a team except PIM's. Intimidation in the NHL is so overrated it's unbelivable. Get rid of the instigator rule and the visors and maybe it will mean something again, but right now it is a position that only works if you have a player who can contribute in other facets of the game, ala Brashear, Simon, May, and Dingman.

What did Worrell do for the Av's? How many minutes did Downey get in Dallas? Scott Parker sure did a world of good riding the pine for the Sharks, didn't he? Andrew Peters single-handedly put the Sabres in playoff contention by fighting everybody in sight, right? Vandenbussche has made quite a few Blackhawks play tough enough to win over the years, hasn't he? I'm sure the Blue Jackets thank god every night for Jody Shelley protecting Klesla - he's never been injured, has he?

Hey, everybody loves a fight, I'm no exception. The Kings problem since Allison and Deadmarsh went down wasn't a lack of a tough guy, it was a lack of mental toughness among the skill players. That is the issue that needs to be addressed, not having a professional punching-bag taking up bench space. Besides, according to several accounts Ryan Flinn has a space set aside on the 23-man roster if he doesn't embarrass himself in the next training camp.

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12-16-2004, 09:30 AM
  #34
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Good points bland, I don't necesarily agree on your take with San Jose. Some kids did have breakout years for them (the Greek kid, and Nabokov didn't have a long grooming time). But that's not I'm writing about. I'd like to know your opinion on what our line should look like if the season started today. By the way, I disagree with your view of Army. His play and numbers he's put up the last 2 years playing with just about everyone in the organization as a line mate at one time or another, has been impressive no doubt. Would you say Ebel has played better and deserved the #2 spot? Pirnes? Probably not, so as a guy no0one expected to be a decent #2, he has filled that role well enough. Is he great? No, but he's not the crap you say he is either.

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12-17-2004, 03:09 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bland
You have got to be kidding me. The only thing comparable between Craig Conroy and Derek Armstrong is that they both shoot right-handed.

You think Conroy doesn't fill a void, but support playing Armstrong in a primary offensive role? Army's a great story of perserverance and dedication, but face it - he wouldn't get a sniff on any other NHL roster. The only reason he is even in the league is because he's one of Murray's foot soldiers that you were whining about in your other post. He has an above average shot release, and average-to-below-average everything else. Personally, I like the guy and hope the best for him and his family, but he cannot be placed in a role where he is counted on to provide any sort of consistant offense. The only place on the ice where he isn't a liability is from the face-off circles on in.
Ok, first of all this thread was based on a trade, than a comment about Conroy, than a comparison with himself and Army (thanks to me) and then it got into how AM grooms his youngsters. So i'll go over them again.
I never said Army should fill a primary offensive role, you're just assuming that. My comparison is simply stating that Army is a poor man's Conroy, without the hefty contract, and with out the defensive capabilities. Most fans on these boards will not see what the coach's see as far as flaws in players go. It's funny how every one has become such an expert on great two way players. And, every year somebody gets on the bandwagon. This year it happens to be Draper, Primeau, and Conroy. I have no problem with us getting Conroy, but I do have a problem with the money we're spending on a player that belongs on line two or three. Army...........yes Army should be at one of those two spots also. That's my point. We're suppose to be cost conscious. And this signing is another Aaron Miller signing. Believe me Conroy is just the robot AM needed. He was a big fish in a little pond, and I don't question the leadership he brings to the ice. But LA has a problem with scoring and he sure as ***** isn't going to help. Either is Army but he don't cost 4.5 million. You make Army sound horrible, and he's one of the best we have at puck protection, and doing the dirty work in the corners to make room for our wingers. You can also compare points to games played this past year with Conroy and Army, and than compare who the two were playing with. Here i'll do it for you.
Army: GP 57 14 Goals 21 Assists 35 Pts +4 33 Pims Linemates (Line 2 and 3) Klatt and Robitaille
Conroy: GP 63 8 Goals 39 Assists 47 Pts + 13 44 Pims Linemates (Line 1) Iginla and Reinprecht or Saprykin

You can also look at Conroy's career stats. But yeah he needs to be on mantle. I guess?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bland
Conroy isn't a traditional #1 center by any means, but if you want to play the game on paper alone, then Armstrong should be in Manchester or back in Europe. My point is that this game isn't played on Playstations or Fantasy league stat sheets. Conroy has every quality desirable for a veteran on a youthful team, plus he can contribute both offensively and especially defensively on a team that lacks defensive-minded players. Not only that, but who's space is he taking? Lehoux wasn't even close to being an NHL'er in June. Cammalleri is probably too small to play center in the big league, but after this season in the AHL he may get a better look from management. Name one other center in the organization that is even remotely close to making the jump to the NHL. Try naming any other UFA center signed in this off-season that is better than Conroy for this team. Should we trade youth for a veteran "#1" center? Hell no. Resign Stumpel? Somehow I don't think you would take this option either.
No problem, and I can agree with you with Army playing in Europe or the "A". But that subject is to deep to go into. The whole league is dilluted, and Army is'nt the only one on that boat. We lack defensive minded players? Do you go to Kings games or what? Our problem is putting the puck in the net! You can't win simply with a bunch of great two ways players. It's a puzzle, and Conroy is simply coming to a team with a logjam at number two and three centers.
Lehoux, I won't even go there. I would never use him as a comparison. Your Cammy comments sounds like you read the papers more than you actually watch games. Because he's already destroyed the A the short time he was there. His problem has more to do with attitude, but that's AM's job to mold it. Not ***** with him by sending him back and forth to the fourth line and Manchester. Straka could also play the pivot role when we lacked scoring on the top line. Yeah, Conroy is better than Straka too.
Better UFA? How about Zhamnov? Try asking Sutter what he thinks about him and the rest of the league. One of the best two way players in the game, and would be an offensive jugernaut if he didn't have to line up against opposing teams top lines.
Veteran center you say "Hell no"???? What's Conroy?
Again Stumpel is a bad comparison, and actually wouldn't be all that bad if he didn't have to play the number two slot. Conroy is simply another Smolinski, and i'd still take Smoke over Conroy. Point is I want neither. But Conroy is like the second coming to some of you people. I seen him at World Cup, and I wasn't impressed........either was Wilson, because he never got a game after their first one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland
And another thing, San Jose is a prime example of what this team can accomplish if given time to develop. Their core players that lead to the division title and playoff run (Marleau, Sturm, Stuart, Hannan, Nabokov, etc.) are young veterans, not youthful prospects thrown into the fire by an overzealous GM. They were able to learn the game and grow into their bodies for several seasons by playing behind the likes of Gary Suter, Owen Nolan, Vinnie Damphousse, Mike Ricci, Bryan Marchment, Arturs Irbe, etc. Only Mike Rathje was able to immediately step into a primary role. Look at Marleau - how many seasons went by while the Shark fans were waiting for a breakout? Look at Pat Falloon, how well did he develop when he was immediately inserted into the role of #1 scoring option without an ounce of AHL or IHL seasoning? It's taken that team several years to be able to cast off the veterans they relied so heavily on, and it was only because the young players had time to mature properly. This is the course proven to work time and time again. Right now it sucks for us fans because we can't ice a winner, but we will be far better off for it in the very near future.
That's what some of us here have been saying for the last three years. You have to blend talent with youth. That means giving these kids confidence. Why does Colorado always produce such great players? They put their youth with talent. Something we still lack. Again all AM. Let's see he played Ziggy longer with CJ, and John Tripp than he did with young talent. Great formula!
So nobody said anything about throwing them into the fire. You did. Cammy is now twenty two and he's been handled real poor. Same went for Lubo. He all of a sudden became a savior when he had the talent all along. He just was not given the confidence that AM needed to give him. He logged major minutes because we lost Schneider and AM had no choice. It wasn't because he needed time to groom.........And how can you groom with Modry? Mistakes will happen with youngsters, but the same goes with veterans. It depends how they're treated after they make those mistakes.
I'm not for a complete youth rebuild and i've never said that. But developing them has become another question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland
As far as the heavyweights go, you are talking about a coach who played Stu m-*** Grimson in several playoff games. This talk about Murray not dressing enforcers is wearing so thin you can see right through it. Give Murray a quality tough guy and he'll see some minutes. Can you honestly say that Kip Brennan deserved more time than he received? What about Ken Belanger? Neither of those guys can contribute anything to a team except PIM's. Intimidation in the NHL is so overrated it's unbelivable. Get rid of the instigator rule and the visors and maybe it will mean something again, but right now it is a position that only works if you have a player who can contribute in other facets of the game, ala Brashear, Simon, May, and Dingman.

What did Worrell do for the Av's? How many minutes did Downey get in Dallas? Scott Parker sure did a world of good riding the pine for the Sharks, didn't he? Andrew Peters single-handedly put the Sabres in playoff contention by fighting everybody in sight, right? Vandenbussche has made quite a few Blackhawks play tough enough to win over the years, hasn't he? I'm sure the Blue Jackets thank god every night for Jody Shelley protecting Klesla - he's never been injured, has he?

Hey, everybody loves a fight, I'm no exception. The Kings problem since Allison and Deadmarsh went down wasn't a lack of a tough guy, it was a lack of mental toughness among the skill players. That is the issue that needs to be addressed, not having a professional punching-bag taking up bench space. Besides, according to several accounts Ryan Flinn has a space set aside on the 23-man roster if he doesn't embarrass himself in the next training camp.
Stu Grimson......I know and when was that? We were also feared, not just quote"a tough team to play against". Intimidation is not overrated, but maybe just to yourself. So I guess Domi *****ing with Ziggy the whole game last season wasn't intimidation, only to see Ziggy protecting himself while the rest of our powder puffs skated by. Kip got at best six minutes a game and that's when he played. Yeah, he didn't deserve more than that, but which true heavyweight does. Not some of the ones that you listed. You know nothing about it or the players for that matter. What did Tripp do better? Or CJ? Nothing except skate around and produce dick all!
Dingman? Are you serious and what has he done that's impressed you? This was a former number one draft pick that's done nothing except log the minutes you're moaning about. About four minutes a game.
Vandenbussche is a middleweight by the way. He just fights heavyweights. Most players you're mentioning are huge key ingredients to their team's success. This is the NHL not Intl Hockey. Fighting is allowed, and can get your players motivated when need be.
As for Kings problems with skill players toughness........well you just mentioned two of our best that went down, with not one ounce of retribution. Havlat takes a dirty run at Recchi and the whole team practically puts a bounty on the guy including Hitchcock. That's what and where team toughness should start with. If you look down the Kings bench you'll have no one to back your play. Ziggy should have nothing to do with any of this topic. Just like Sakic, Modano, Federov and every other super star in this league.
I agree get rid of the instigator rule! It's changed the league for the worse.

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