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How does Sweden do it?

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Old
04-29-2012, 11:54 PM
  #76
frag2
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Just want to chime in:

If china had a development program akin to either countries, even if only 1% become stars, the restof the hockey world will be doomed

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Old
04-29-2012, 11:55 PM
  #77
Stephen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ummerr View Post
Country of 9.5 million (1/3rd the size of Canada) produces a prodigious amount of talent? There have always been great Swedes in the league, but the new generation is staggering.

Forwards:
- Landeskog
- Zibanejad
- Backlund
- Hagelin
- Johansson
- Eriksson
- Josefson
- Forsberg

Defensemen:
- Karlsson
- Ekman-Larsson
- Larsson
- Runblad
- Edler
- Hedman
- Erixon
- Klefborn

Most of these players have potential star status in the NHL (some are already well on their way). Not to mention Markstrom, Enroth, Lehner & Lack.

Also, why does Norway not produce much by way of NHL talent?
Let me preface this by saying that I'm a Sweden fan, but the list seems to be a little bit of counting your chickens before they hatch, no? The forwards you listed have a lot of potential, but haven't really proven that they're a staggering collection of talent yet, and have a long way to go to match the likes of Sundin, Naslund, Alfredsson, Franzen, Zetterberg, Holmstrom who were born in the 70s...

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04-29-2012, 11:58 PM
  #78
Frank Garrett
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Is Stamkos Swedish? No. And that's all that matters.

Stamkos = GOD

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04-30-2012, 12:03 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ummerr View Post
Country of 9.5 million (1/3rd the size of Canada) produces a prodigious amount of talent? There have always been great Swedes in the league, but the new generation is staggering.

Forwards:
- Landeskog
- Zibanejad
- Backlund
- Hagelin
- Johansson
- Eriksson
- Josefson
- Forsberg

Defensemen:
- Karlsson
- Ekman-Larsson
- Larsson
- Runblad
- Edler
- Hedman
- Erixon
- Klefborn

Most of these players have potential star status in the NHL (some are already well on their way). Not to mention Markstrom, Enroth, Lehner & Lack.

Also, why does Norway not produce much by way of NHL talent?
Peter Forsberg is the father.

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04-30-2012, 12:45 AM
  #80
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Didn't read the whole thread but I just wanted to add that it's impressive to me how many of these star Swedish players are truly well rounded.

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04-30-2012, 12:55 AM
  #81
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Quick! Somebody divide a players points by their pounds so we know who the best pound for pound player is!

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Old
04-30-2012, 01:16 AM
  #82
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You list Edler, but forget about his superior, Enstrom?

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Old
04-30-2012, 02:03 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
Hockey isn't even the most played sport in Canada, its soccer by far. There were 2.7 million soccer players in Canada in 2006 (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_in_Canada). You also have to remember, Canadians have a lot more major sports to follow than the Swedes. Canadian/American football, baseball, and basketball are WAY more popular in Canada than in Sweden. Thus, its not fair to point to Sweden and say "soccer is their #1 sport, yet look at the hockey players they produce." Because its pretty much Soccer and Hockey and that's it in Sweden. In Canada, the pie is sliced into more pieces, leaving less hockey focused development than some would think.
Well... that's just not true.

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Old
04-30-2012, 02:31 AM
  #84
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Men amount % Women amount %
Fotboll 434 12 Gymnastik 258 7
Golf 201 6 Fotboll 160 4
Floorball 200 6 Horseback 160 4
Ishockey 175 5 Athletics 95 3
Shooting sp. 153 4 Dancing 94 3
Fighting sp. 137 4 Golf 87 2
Athletics 131 4 Handboll 75 2
Motorcykel 106 3 Swimming 74 2
Handboll 99 3 Fighting sport 70 2
Cykel 93 3 Floorball 62 2

The statistics are for people in Sweden aged between 7-70. The amount figures are in the thousands so Football for men is 434 000 or 12 %. The figures are for those active in competition in a series or organized training activities (i.e being active in a team or a club). I have translated the sports that would be the most difficult to translate.

http://www.rf.se/ImageVault/Images/i...ltHandler.aspx

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04-30-2012, 03:07 AM
  #85
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All I have seen in here is people looking at meaningless statistics and numbers (as always with HFBoards). Why not actually look at the pro's and con's of the two development systems and structures themselves?

Oh but I guess then you would actually require knowledge of them.

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Old
04-30-2012, 03:19 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ummerr View Post
Country of 9.5 million (1/3rd the size of Canada) produces a prodigious amount of talent? There have always been great Swedes in the league, but the new generation is staggering.

Forwards:
- Landeskog--- Definitely has that star talent in him.
- Zibanejad --- Hasn't played yet in the NHL.
- Backlund --- Good #2/3C
- Hagelin ---- A speedy player but he was drafted in 07 and is finally making an impact.
- Johansson ---- #2C
- Eriksson -----Great elite player
- Josefson ----- #2C and that's pushing it.
- Forsberg ----- hasn't played yet in the NHL.

Defensemen:
- Karlsson --- Star talent
- Ekman-Larsson ---- Star talent.
- Larsson --- possibly a star
- Runblad --- hardly experienced
- Edler --- Star
- Hedman --- Star
- Erixon --- way too early to say
- Klefborn --- way too early to say.

Most of these players have potential star status in the NHL (some are already well on their way). Not to mention Markstrom, Enroth, Lehner & Lack.

Also, why does Norway not produce much by way of NHL talent?
Roughly about 6 stars from the 20 players you could name.

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04-30-2012, 03:35 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by brewsky View Post
quick! Somebody divide a players points by their pounds so we know who the best pound for pound player is!
msl.

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Old
04-30-2012, 05:13 AM
  #88
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There are countries out there that can dress a very competitive "A" team against Canada. Sweden is certainly certainly at the top of the list when it comes to that.

Canada's strength lies in their depth. Their B or C team can compete for the gold and beat the A team on any given day.

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04-30-2012, 05:23 AM
  #89
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well, i guess the only way to find out which country has the best hockey team is to have a quadrennial tournament. where might one find such a competition?

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04-30-2012, 05:32 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian North View Post
You list Edler, but forget about his superior, Enstrom?
what makes enstrom better than edler?

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04-30-2012, 05:48 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
...Why not actually look at the pro's and con's of the two development systems and structures themselves? ...
Best post in this thread!!!

Personally I find it remarkable how the Swedish system has found a way to make a quick turn around after the what seems to be somehow weaker age groups around the early 1980s and I hope that many of the young guns can develop as anticipated.

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Old
04-30-2012, 06:13 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Dosing View Post
We are usually in the top of whatever we try... hockey should be no different

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04-30-2012, 06:32 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
All I have seen in here is people looking at meaningless statistics and numbers (as always with HFBoards). Why not actually look at the pro's and con's of the two development systems and structures themselves?

Oh but I guess then you would actually require knowledge of them.
One of the biggest cons in Sweden, and this is regarding nearly everything in this country, is that everyone should be given an extra chances over and over again. The Landeskog quote from the article excerpted from the Denverpost is a perfect example for this. Instead of seeing this skilled individual they chime him in with the others and make him a part of a collective with others who are underperforming and are given second, third and fourth chances.

I understand that you need a TEAM to win and not individuals but only Swedes will understand to what extent this goes. This mentality is everywhere in Sweden. People who are doing ridiculous good and have promising futures can get extra attention without the "collective" getting hurt and getting left aside.

I agree on that everyone should get second chances but if you continue to blow it and not get better why should you be getting as much attention as everyone else and why should you be the priority over someone who is really promising and doing a lot better?

Some will probably misinterpret me, it would be much easier for me to explain this in Swedish, but I gave it my best shot. But we are seeing a change of this now. Per Mårts are cleaning up in the Swedish National Team of underperformers and had this been a different coach, the ones before him, they would still have played them.

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04-30-2012, 06:52 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vimm View Post
One of the biggest cons in Sweden, and this is regarding nearly everything in this country, is that everyone should be given an extra chances over and over again. The Landeskog quote from the article excerpted from the Denverpost is a perfect example for this. Instead of seeing this skilled individual they chime him in with the others and make him a part of a collective with others who are underperforming and are given second, third and fourth chances.

I understand that you need a TEAM to win and not individuals but only Swedes will understand to what extent this goes. This mentality is everywhere in Sweden. People who are doing ridiculous good and have promising futures can get extra attention without the "collective" getting hurt and getting left aside.

I agree on that everyone should get second chances but if you continue to blow it and not get better why should you be getting as much attention as everyone else and why should you be the priority over someone who is really promising and doing a lot better?

Some will probably misinterpret me, it would be much easier for me to explain this in Swedish, but I gave it my best shot. But we are seeing a change of this now. Per Mårts are cleaning up in the Swedish National Team of underperformers and had this been a different coach, the ones before him, they would still have played them.
I only need to use one word to explain that to you - Depth

I will use the situation in GB to explain it further. The best players get all the attention and get to play more games (play up to next age group, conference all star teams, England tournaments) while the rest get left behind. A number of the top players will either bust or give up the sport for whatever reason so there is a much smaller pool of talented players. If more attention was paid to the less-talented young players we would not need to play 2 line hockey in the world juniors.

One of Sweden's strengths at WC's is depth, they can still ice a competitive roster without the NHL players in the playoffs, whereas you look at a team like Slovakia who can't. In our WC's this year GB was missing 3 of our regular Dmen for various reasons, and went from getting Silver last year to avoiding relegation by the skin of our teeth this year, which I think is mostly attributed to missing those 3 players, our D was atrocious without them.

From my experiences what you've described isn't a bad thing. Another argument is if you improve the lesser players, the top players will get to play against better competition which is obviously beneficial, but also irrelevant at the same time because one advantage Sweden has over Canada (IMO) is the option to play against men at a younger age.


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Old
04-30-2012, 07:23 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
All I have seen in here is people looking at meaningless statistics and numbers (as always with HFBoards). Why not actually look at the pro's and con's of the two development systems and structures themselves?

Oh but I guess then you would actually require knowledge of them.
That's my conclusion after reading through this thread as well.

An interesting discussion would be one about how the swedish and the us development systems have progressed the last decade. Both countries have done extremely well lately, and I've heard that they've approached the problems that they've had in a similar way, but I haven't heard what those changes were in practice.

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04-30-2012, 07:26 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
I only need to use one word to explain that to you - Depth

I will use the situation in GB to explain it further. The best players get all the attention and get to play more games (play up to next age group, conference all star teams, England tournaments) while the rest get left behind. A number of the top players will either bust or give up the sport for whatever reason so there is a much smaller pool of talented players. If more attention was paid to the less-talented young players we would not need to play 2 line hockey in the world juniors.

One of Sweden's strengths at WC's is depth, they can still ice a competitive roster without the NHL players in the playoffs, whereas you look at a team like Slovakia who can't. In our WC's this year GB was missing 3 of our regular Dmen for various reasons, and went from getting Silver last year to avoiding relegation by the skin of our teeth this year, which I think is mostly attributed to missing those 3 players, our D was atrocious without them.

From my experiences what you've described isn't a bad thing. Another argument is if you improve the lesser players, the top players will get to play against better competition which is obviously beneficial, but also irrelevant at the same time because one advantage Sweden has over Canada (IMO) is the option to play against men at a younger age
Its not like I'm lobbying to the extent of the example you are giving of GB. But if thats the situation in GB. Wow thats very elitist. And its not the way I aim to achieve with my "rant". Yes I agree with you that we have depth. But as I said, people would misinterpret the whole argument since its the core of Sweden as a nation and its people and you need to be a Swede to kind of understand it. It's called "Jantelagen" by the way.

I'm not saying that we should give all attention to superstars but that there is a lot of second chances in Sweden everywhere. School, Work, Politicians, Sports and so on. My attitude is that I want to help everyone, its part of my persona and my work. But during my work I have come to an understanding that you can't help everyone and you can only give people second chances to a specific extent or else you are giving up on potential in others.

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04-30-2012, 07:40 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Vimm View Post
Its not like I'm lobbying to the extent of the example you are giving of GB. But if thats the situation in GB. Wow thats very elitist. And its not the way I aim to achieve with my "rant". Yes I agree with you that we have depth. But as I said, people would misinterpret the whole argument since its the core of Sweden as a nation and its people and you need to be a Swede to kind of understand it. It's called "Jantelagen" by the way.

I'm not saying that we should give all attention to superstars but that there is a lot of second chances in Sweden everywhere. School, Work, Politicians, Sports and so on. My attitude is that I want to help everyone, its part of my persona and my work. But during my work I have come to an understanding that you can't help everyone and you can only give people second chances to a specific extent or else you are giving up on potential in others.
You do have some valid points, however the swedish system seems to be good for latebloomers. It's not always easy to see who is going to be a great player when they are 16. I am thankful we are not giving up on too many players, it adds depth.
The swedish system haven't produced loads of productive forwards (on NHL-level) lately, so maybe there is more to be done to really transform those rare talents (like Filip Forsberg et.c) to new Forsbergs, Sundins and Alfies. It's one thing producing loads of talent, there is another thing to refine that talent to realy high-class players.

Why can't we have it all? The old sosse-hockey mentality and team-spirit (I mean this years wjc-gold medalist felt like they where that kind of team), paired with developing the individuals.

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04-30-2012, 07:42 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by aLus View Post
If NHL was located in Norway I'm pretty sure most of the 3-4th liners would be Swedes instead of Canadians.
This. So much easier in every kind of way to fill the teams with north americans instead of europeans if they are equally talented. And of course they will develop more in the NHL than you would in the SEL or any other european league.

If Canada was so superior they would be winning every international tournament easy. But if you look at the best 22 or 23 players you'd fit into a roster, there's alot of competition.
Canada has greater depth than any other country, no question about it. But the top players are on the same level.

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04-30-2012, 07:51 AM
  #99
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Ok so you are saying that 16-18 is more important than 19-22 and the first day you put on your skates to you are 16. You might be right.
When exactly did I say this? Can you quote it somewhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post

According to your argument though there should still be better swedish than danish nhl player ratio since they get development from the worlds best hockey development from they first start with hockey. The danish players mentioned only get world class development for 3 years and some only got it for a few months. How can they have better NHL ratio than sweden then?

If you didn't understand by now I'm just showing how ridiculous the ratio argument is
I haven't said any of this either, stop making things up and calm down a bit. You seem to be very clueless in this subject so maybe you should at least look up some facts before you start to post.

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04-30-2012, 07:55 AM
  #100
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This thread would have been better had Canada not been brought into it.

What Sweden has done lately can stand on its own and can be applauded but when you bring Canada into it of course Canadians will debate it, as they should.

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