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The Official Jordan Staal Thread, Part II

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Old
05-08-2012, 01:23 PM
  #876
billybudd
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
What about my deal?



Nikolai Kulemin
Luke Schenn
2012 1st (5th overall)




Jordan Staal
Zbynek Michalek
+?

Jordan Staal is a future 30+ goal scoring center who is a young veteran, knows what it takes to win and is a beast in the playoffs.

Zbynek Michalek isn't as big of a hitter as Schenn but it still a stud defenseman. Only makes $400,000 more than Schenn, blocks shots and moves the puck well.

Pens want the 5th overall pick, but maybe we can get Toronto's 2013 1st next year or even swap 2013 1sts if that's a deal breaker.

Sounds fair for both sides, what do you think?
I don't understand what's in it for Pittsburgh. Schenn's got every bit the tunnel vision that Michalek has, is a big "name" player, so he'll be just as expensive in the long run and is never in position. So that's a loss right there.

then you're flipping Staal for Kulemin, who's a fine player, but plays a less important position, scores less, is smaller, isn't as strong, isn't as fast and is a fine defensive player but not one who's good enough to get Selke votes.

You're proposing to downgrade at both forward and defense in order to get a 5th overall pick who might be ready in a couple years if he doesn't bust. A 5th-7th overall isn't the sure thing a 1st-3rd overall is. Look at Brayden Schenn. He went 6th in a deep draft and looks like his career potential is as a garbage, injury-faking facsimile of Brenden Sutter. At best.

Edit: Should clarify I'm not knocking Sutter, who is boss. Just saying Schenn at his best will be Sutter's ghost.

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05-08-2012, 01:24 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
He couldn't train like he really wanted over the Summer because of the knee... Then he had the setback... Never got into a groove. Knee injuries are a *****.

He had 12 points in 25 games the year before, so it isn't a stretch to think he could be a 35-40 point, defensively responsible third line center. All this guy does in produce at every level when given the chance... I would caution anyone not to doubt him like I always did....

That should be his role to lose going into next season, regardless of what happens to Staal (since he wants to play in the top 6).

Someone has to take that spot next season... Why keep pushing him into a role he isn't suited for, when he is built to be a third line center?

It just seems like common sense.
As long as he's back to where he was in 2011 I agree. I just wondered how badly that knee injury could have hampered him.

I don't know if it really matters, but it would be nice to have some familiarity for Tangradi with Jeffrey and Vitale centering the bottom 2 lines.

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05-08-2012, 01:28 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
I don't understand what's in it for Pittsburgh. Schenn's got every bit the tunnel vision that Michalek has, is a big "name" player, so he'll be just as expensive in the long run and is never in position. So that's a loss right there.

then you're flipping Staal for Kulemin, who's a fine player, but plays a less important position, scores less, is smaller, isn't as strong, isn't as fast and is a fine defensive player but not one who's good enough to get Selke votes.

You're proposing to downgrade at both forward and defense in order to get a 5th overall pick who might be ready in a couple years if he doesn't bust. A 5th-7th overall isn't the sure thing a 1st-3rd overall is. Look at Brayden Schenn. He went 6th in a deep draft and looks like his career potential is as a garbage, injury-faking facsimile of Brenden Sutter. At best.

Edit: Should clarify I'm not knocking Sutter, who is boss. Just saying Schenn at his best will be Sutter's ghost.


I know, I see what you're saying.

I'm just saying from Toronto I want Kulemin, Schenn and a 1st for Staal, and Pittsburgh would have to add I assume, I don't know what they would have to add, I just assume they do.

I also like AgentM's Minnesota idea, they would absolutely be interested in Staal. With their GM being a former Pens assistant GM and Mike Yeo being a former Pens coach.

Imagine if we can get Coyle, Setoguchi and the 7th overall ....PIPEDREAM!

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05-08-2012, 01:28 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
If they don't, then it's a terrible trade for Pittsburgh. Here's the deal from the Pens:

Staal for Kuly, number 5 overall, and a propect (Ashton) or Schenn/Gunnerson. If it's not 3 pieces, then no thanks.
Gunner and Schenn will become the new Whitney and Martin here... Trust me on that.

Leafs have two realistic pieces.. 5th and Kumy. After that it is a huge toss up.

Bozak really grew on me this year.. Crafty, good size, righty shot, almost put up 50... He is making like 1.5m, could slide into the third center role nicely. He is a UFA after next season though.

I haven't mentioned him because Burke is so hard up for centers, I am not sure he could move him. However, Kadri could take his spot, so it may not be totally crazy.

I would be happy with 5th, Kumy, Bozak for Staal and Jeffrey. That is a fair deal that helps both sides.

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05-08-2012, 01:32 PM
  #880
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I don't know if it really matters, but it would be nice to have some familiarity for Tangradi with Jeffrey and Vitale centering the bottom 2 lines.
Keep Vitale and Tangradi on the fourth line to start out... They have chemistry together.

Let Jeffrey center the third.

You can always make trades if things don't work out, but you won't know until you do.

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05-08-2012, 01:40 PM
  #881
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That's a bit harsh on the pick. While there is no guarantee that the pick will pan out and be productive right away, there have been SEVERAL players that were taken at #5 who have been VERY productive.

It would most likely be a defensive prospect...and I believe we may have enough of them coming up. Ya gotta figure that Yaks, Grigs, and Murray will go 1-3. Then you have Forsberg, Teravainen, and Collberg who are the next three forward prospects. Collberg has a whopping 0 pts in 41 games in the SEL so...not sure he's the best prospect to look at. Forsberg could be a decent 3C coming in. He's 6'2 but only 180lbs so he could stand to gain a few but he would be an option if available.

Those are all options...and you honestly never know how a prospect will turn out.

With this trade you get Schenn who could replace Niskanen on the 3rd pairing. Kulemin could play with Sid...but I'm not sure that's enough of an upgrade to warrant letting Staal go.

Letang-Orpik
Niskanen-Free Agent/Despres
Schenn-Engo

That's not too bad of a defense...but in that instance I would much rather have the Free Agent be someone like Suter.

Dupuis-Crosby-Kulemin
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-FA-Kennedy
Tangradi-Vitale-Adams

Not bad...bring in a good 3C and we could be alright.

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05-08-2012, 01:45 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post


I know, I see what you're saying.

I'm just saying from Toronto I want Kulemin, Schenn and a 1st for Staal, and Pittsburgh would have to add I assume, I don't know what they would have to add, I just assume they do.

I also like AgentM's Minnesota idea, they would absolutely be interested in Staal. With their GM being a former Pens assistant GM and Mike Yeo being a former Pens coach.

Imagine if we can get Coyle, Setoguchi and the 7th overall ....PIPEDREAM!
Not that I want any part of that deal, but why would we have to add anything?

Kulemin, regardless of what he did the year before, put up 4th line numbers last year, and Schenn is a developmental mess. He's a hard hitter, but he's also a knucklehead and makes bad decisions with the puck. It reminds me of a guy we already have...

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05-08-2012, 01:46 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
That's a bit harsh on the pick. While there is no guarantee that the pick will pan out and be productive right away, there have been SEVERAL players that were taken at #5 who have been VERY productive.

It would most likely be a defensive prospect...and I believe we may have enough of them coming up. Ya gotta figure that Yaks, Grigs, and Murray will go 1-3. Then you have Forsberg, Teravainen, and Collberg who are the next three forward prospects. Collberg has a whopping 0 pts in 41 games in the SEL so...not sure he's the best prospect to look at. Forsberg could be a decent 3C coming in. He's 6'2 but only 180lbs so he could stand to gain a few but he would be an option if available.

Those are all options...and you honestly never know how a prospect will turn out.

With this trade you get Schenn who could replace Niskanen on the 3rd pairing. Kulemin could play with Sid...but I'm not sure that's enough of an upgrade to warrant letting Staal go.

Letang-Orpik
Niskanen-Free Agent/Despres
Schenn-Engo

That's not too bad of a defense...but in that instance I would much rather have the Free Agent be someone like Suter.

Dupuis-Crosby-Kulemin
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-FA-Kennedy
Tangradi-Vitale-Adams

Not bad...bring in a good 3C and we could be alright.
The Pens acquiring Kulemin and Bylsma then slotting him for Sid's RW would be par for the course when it comes to this coaching staff, and that statement is not a compliment.

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Old
05-08-2012, 01:48 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
The Pens acquiring Kulemin and Bylsma then slotting him for Sid's RW would be par for the course when it comes to this coaching staff, and that statement is not a compliment.
Believe that ran through my mind. The ideal would be:

Dupuis-Crosby-Neal
Kunitz-Malkin-Kulemin

Then I guess you could argue the 3rd man...but it's just too hard to ignore Malkin and Neal's play together.

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Old
05-08-2012, 01:51 PM
  #885
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Schenn, Kulemin and the 5th overall seems very steep. Maybe the bidding war escalates the price to be that high, but I doubt it. I think the deal would have to look like...

Staal and Pens 1st (20-24 overall range?)

Schenn, Kulemin and Toronto 1st (5th overall)

Basically Schenn, Kulemin and swapping 1sts for Staal.
I'd do that.

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Old
05-08-2012, 01:52 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Not that I want any part of that deal, but why would we have to add anything?

Kulemin, regardless of what he did the year before, put up 4th line numbers last year, and Schenn is a developmental mess. He's a hard hitter, but he's also a knucklehead and makes bad decisions with the puck. It reminds me of a guy we already have...
Jiggy brought up Ashton as a piece. Frankly, I see Burke trying to get it done for Kulemin and the 5th overall. And, I see Shero pushing and pushing and pushing. Wouldn't be stunned to see it end up Staal for Kulemin, Ashton, the 5th overall, AND something else (not that level, but maybe the 35th overall).

I think this one turns into a bidding war. Carolina will play, and they can/would take Martin. Buffalo will play. Minny-- totally forgot about them-- will be a player and someone who would/could take Martin.

Forget about Edmonton or Anaheim or St Louis. All have assets the Pens would want, but none can pay Staal the big bucks (they could 'afford' to do it, but they practically can't given the rest of their rosters and impending free agents).

Instead, consider Carolina, Toronto, Minny, Buffalo the top four (don't like Buffalo's pieces as much, but they will be ultra aggressive, IMO).

Anyway, you get that bidding war, and someone is going to add that last asset you didn't think they'd go.

It's all about supply and demand. Ray Shero has something teams want and can't get anywhere else. Someone will step up. Conceptually, it's the same thing as the Gologoski deal. It's not about what most here would call 'fair'. It's about supply and demand.

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05-08-2012, 01:54 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
Believe that ran through my mind. The ideal would be:

Dupuis-Crosby-Neal
Kunitz-Malkin-Kulemin

Then I guess you could argue the 3rd man...but it's just too hard to ignore Malkin and Neal's play together.
No, you make the line Kulemin-Malkin-Neal. Kunitz was o'k as a complement for Malkin and Neal, but Kumy brings you the board work and more consistent net drive that makes him an ideal complement.

Then, you put Kunitz back with Crosby and you're half way home. Note: If I'm trading Staal, then there's no ******* way the Pens should go into next season with Dupuis in the top six.

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05-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #888
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No, you make the line Kulemin-Malkin-Neal. Kunitz was o'k as a complement for Malkin and Neal, but Kumy brings you the board work and more consistent net drive that makes him an ideal complement.

Then, you put Kunitz back with Crosby and you're half way home. Note: If I'm trading Staal, then there's no ******* way the Pens should go into next season with Dupuis in the top six.
Kulemin-Malkin-Neal line would be amazing.

Neal and Malkin have chemistry as it is. Kulemin and Malkin create amazing plays for Russia and would be just another side to it.

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05-08-2012, 01:59 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Keep Vitale and Tangradi on the fourth line to start out... They have chemistry together.

Let Jeffrey center the third.

You can always make trades if things don't work out, but you won't know until you do.
If you did your suggested Staal for Kumy, Ashton, 5th overall deal, then a Tangradi-Vitale-Ashton line might be a fun kids group, and you see who steps up.

Kumy-Geno-Neal would be set.

Figure you move TK and Cooke/Dupuis are your 'checking line' wingers.

Figure you need a RW for Kunitz and Sid.

Sets up some interesting possibilities.

BTW, I'll miss Staal. But, if Staal going means that Bylsma uses Sid and Geno like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar (i.e., monster minutes, all situations, including key defensive situations and the PK) AND that Sid and Geno both have two good wingers (think what a matchup nightmare THAT would be), then I think we'll end up missing Staal a lot less than it seems right now.

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05-08-2012, 02:01 PM
  #890
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The Pens acquiring Kulemin and Bylsma then slotting him for Sid's RW would be par for the course when it comes to this coaching staff, and that statement is not a compliment.
Haha. Not that I'm one to go out of my way to slag the coaching staff, but that's so true. And it would be even more of a mismatch than Sykora was with Sid.

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05-08-2012, 02:02 PM
  #891
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Kulemin-Malkin-Neal line would be amazing.

Neal and Malkin have chemistry as it is. Kulemin and Malkin create amazing plays for Russia and would be just another side to it.
Kulemin would be Malkin's Malone. Kumy doesn't have Malone's snarl. BUT, he's plays solid defense, is big, mucks things up on the boards, will work those give and go's, and will drive the net more consistently than Kunitz when he gives.

In turn, that will mean Neal will spend less time forechecking and more time working as the third wheel looking for soft spots for that wicked wrister.

I like Kunitz. He was 10X the complement Sully was. BUT, even he lacks in board work, driving the net, and consistency in terms of being physical. It means Geno and Neal did more of that and focused less on doing what they do best.

Line was still absolutely nuts, but IMO Kumy-Geno-Neal will make everyone forget about Kunitz.

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05-08-2012, 02:05 PM
  #892
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Haha. Not that I'm one to go out of my way to slag the coaching staff, but that's so true. And it would be even more of a mismatch than Sykora was with Sid.
But, would it surprise you? Think about it. Geno and Staal have always had unreal chemistry. Staal as a rookie was described as a young Wayne Cashman playing on Geno's wing. At the same time, Staal always has looked like **** playing with Sid.

Kunitz-Geno-Neal was good. Staal-Geno-Neal would have been better, and it would have let you put Sid back with Kunitz and Dupuis for comfort.

Now, maybe that would have proven wrong. BUT, for all of the line combos and all of the experimenting Bylsma did after Sid came back, did he try that experiment, even just for a period, even just for a shift? Nope . . .

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05-08-2012, 02:13 PM
  #893
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I think a Seto, 7th overall is a good starting point for a Staal trade. Good thinking.
Oh well thank you

I think Seto fits a pressing need of RH sniper for the power play and would rather have him as the primary piece coming back than Sutter or Kulemin. I don't need a new 3rd line center back in the deal in Sutter and Kulemin's one season with decent numbers isn't enough to offset the 3 mediocre to bad ones for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I also like AgentM's Minnesota idea, they would absolutely be interested in Staal. With their GM being a former Pens assistant GM and Mike Yeo being a former Pens coach.

Imagine if we can get Coyle, Setoguchi and the 7th overall ....PIPEDREAM!
Not sure we could get all three of those but it would be a pretty good haul I think! And great point about the Penguins presence in Minny that could really make a push to bring in Staal so maybe they would outbid Carolina and Toronto and give us a package like that. Of course we can send Minnesota boy Paul Martin back to help sweeten the pot to make it happen

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05-08-2012, 02:16 PM
  #894
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If you did your suggested Staal for Kumy, Ashton, 5th overall deal, then a Tangradi-Vitale-Ashton line might be a fun kids group, and you see who steps up.

Kumy-Geno-Neal would be set.

Figure you move TK and Cooke/Dupuis are your 'checking line' wingers.

Figure you need a RW for Kunitz and Sid.

Sets up some interesting possibilities.

BTW, I'll miss Staal. But, if Staal going means that Bylsma uses Sid and Geno like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar (i.e., monster minutes, all situations, including key defensive situations and the PK) AND that Sid and Geno both have two good wingers (think what a matchup nightmare THAT would be), then I think we'll end up missing Staal a lot less than it seems right now.
The Leafs are the team I know best after the Pens, but it is so hard to find another piece after Kumy and the 5th.

I didn't mention Bozak yesterday, but he is an underrated talent Pens fans would really love as the third line center. He almost put up 50, and he is no joke. If Burke thinks Kadri is ready, he just might move Bozak.

However, I think perhaps Jeffrey goes the other way with Staal to maybe even it out? Hard to make the call..

The Leafs would then have Staal, Connolly, Jeffrey and Kadri down the middle. Pens have Bozak center the third line and Kumy with Malkin.

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05-08-2012, 02:20 PM
  #895
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Oh well thank you

I think Seto fits a pressing need of RH sniper for the power play and would rather have him as the primary piece coming back than Sutter or Kulemin. I don't need a new 3rd line center back in the deal in Sutter and Kulemin's one season with decent numbers isn't enough to offset the 3 mediocre to bad ones for me.



Not sure we could get all three of those but it would be a pretty good haul I think! And great point about the Penguins presence in Minny that could really make a push to bring in Staal so maybe they would outbid Carolina and Toronto and give us a package like that. Of course we can send Minnesota boy Paul Martin back to help sweeten the pot to make it happen
And then we take Morgan Rielly with the 7th pick.

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05-08-2012, 02:22 PM
  #896
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You're proposing to downgrade at both forward and defense in order to get a 5th overall pick who might be ready in a couple years if he doesn't bust. A 5th-7th overall isn't the sure thing a 1st-3rd overall is. Look at Brayden Schenn. He went 6th in a deep draft and looks like his career potential is as a garbage, injury-faking facsimile of Brenden Sutter. At best.

Edit: Should clarify I'm not knocking Sutter, who is boss. Just saying Schenn at his best will be Sutter's ghost.
Yeah, Brayden Schenn scored five less goals than Sutter this year in 28 less games, and he's been better than Sutter at the CHL and AHL levels. Schenn's going to be a hell of a player for a long time. I'd love him on the Pens.

But I don't get the love for Luke Schenn around here. I can't see his ultimate upside being any greater than a Michalek or Orpik type, and while those are valuable players (most of the time) Luke's already being paid like he is at that level. And he just isn't.

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05-08-2012, 02:23 PM
  #897
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And then we take Morgan Rielly with the 7th pick.
He would definitely fit the mold of a Shero draft pick!

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05-08-2012, 02:27 PM
  #898
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The Leafs are the team I know best after the Pens, but it is so hard to find another piece after Kumy and the 5th.

I didn't mention Bozak yesterday, but he is an underrated talent Pens fans would really love as the third line center. He almost put up 50, and he is no joke. If Burke thinks Kadri is ready, he just might move Bozak.

However, I think perhaps Jeffrey goes the other way with Staal to maybe even it out? Hard to make the call..

The Leafs would then have Staal, Connolly, Jeffrey and Kadri down the middle. Pens have Bozak center the third line and Kumy with Malkin.
Two keys no matter where Staal is moved:

1. No Dupuis, no Kennedy, nothing like that in the top six. Sid and Geno with two good wingers each. If you're losing the advantage of Staal as a third line center in terms of matching up, then I want to gain the advantage of having arguably the best center in hockey and two good wingers on both my first AND second lines (no team has two units to deal with that).

2. I want Sid and Geno being used like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar.

If both happen, then I think the impact of losing Staal will be less than many here think.

EDIT: Are you with me on this . . . Kumy-Geno-Neal = Malone-Malkin-Sykora? I just can visualize the dynamic and how Malkin and Neal would be much better with Kumy on the left than Kunitz (no knock on Kunitz, just not the ideal complement Kumy is).

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05-08-2012, 02:34 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Two keys no matter where Staal is moved:

1. No Dupuis, no Kennedy, nothing like that in the top six. Sid and Geno with two good wingers each. If you're losing the advantage of Staal as a third line center in terms of matching up, then I want to gain the advantage of having arguably the best center in hockey and two good wingers on both my first AND second lines (no team has two units to deal with that).

2. I want Sid and Geno being used like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar.

If both happen, then I think the impact of losing Staal will be less than many here think.

EDIT: Are you with me on this . . . Kumy-Geno-Neal = Malone-Malkin-Sykora? I just can visualize the dynamic and how Malkin and Neal would be much better with Kumy on the left than Kunitz (no knock on Kunitz, just not the ideal complement Kumy is).
If Staal goes, we absolutely need to insulate Sid/Geno more with proper complementary talent. I'd like to see Kulemin with Geno, and a guy who can do something with the time and space Kunitz/Sid will provide.

Just not sure who would be a good fit on Sid's RW. I'd love a RHS.

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05-08-2012, 02:37 PM
  #900
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Two keys no matter where Staal is moved:

1. No Dupuis, no Kennedy, nothing like that in the top six. Sid and Geno with two good wingers each. If you're losing the advantage of Staal as a third line center in terms of matching up, then I want to gain the advantage of having arguably the best center in hockey and two good wingers on both my first AND second lines (no team has two units to deal with that).

2. I want Sid and Geno being used like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar.

If both happen, then I think the impact of losing Staal will be less than many here think.

EDIT: Are you with me on this . . . Kumy-Geno-Neal = Malone-Malkin-Sykora? I just can visualize the dynamic and how Malkin and Neal would be much better with Kumy on the left than Kunitz (no knock on Kunitz, just not the ideal complement Kumy is).
Kumy is a bull... Creative, hard worker... Everything you want in a winger. Just can't figure out why he lost his scoring touch this season, so it worries me to a degree.

Ideally they do a one for one swap, like Staal for Ryan, so there is no risk. But chances are it most likely won't come to that and the return package will have associated risks. Any Leafs package is going to be high risk...

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