Kulemin would be Malkin's Malone. Kumy doesn't have Malone's snarl. BUT, he's plays solid defense, is big, mucks things up on the boards, will work those give and go's, and will drive the net more consistently than Kunitz when he gives.
In turn, that will mean Neal will spend less time forechecking and more time working as the third wheel looking for soft spots for that wicked wrister.
I like Kunitz. He was 10X the complement Sully was. BUT, even he lacks in board work, driving the net, and consistency in terms of being physical. It means Geno and Neal did more of that and focused less on doing what they do best.
Line was still absolutely nuts, but IMO Kumy-Geno-Neal will make everyone forget about Kunitz.
Would be sweet to try to pull off a Orpik/Martin for Setoguchi deal.
Kumy is a bull... Creative, hard worker... Everything you want in a winger. Just can't figure out why he lost his scoring touch this season, so it worries me to a degree.
Ideally they do a one for one swap, like Staal for Ryan, so there is no risk. But chances are it most likely won't come to that and the return package will have associated risks. Any Leafs package is going to be high risk...
Higher risk, higher reward than Carolina.
BTW, I'm a lot less interested in how many Kulemin will score than I am with how his game will enable Malkin to control and sustain things offensively. As I said, he'll be Malkin's Malone . . . the bull, the guy who mucks it up on the boards so Geno can come and grab out the puck, the give and go guy, and the guy who instinctively understands in a way that only Malone (and Talbot for 16 fortuitously timed games) understood how and when to support Geno and when to give him space, because with that comes Geno's trust and with Geno's trust comes an unstoppable line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9
If Staal goes, we absolutely need to insulate Sid/Geno more with proper complementary talent. I'd like to see Kulemin with Geno, and a guy who can do something with the time and space Kunitz/Sid will provide.
Just not sure who would be a good fit on Sid's RW. I'd love a RHS.
TK, Orpik for Stewart, Cole
Staal for Kumy, Bozak, 5th overall
Martin for (insert something here)
Sign Allen as UFA to short contract.
BTW, I'm a lot less interested in how many Kulemin will score than I am with how his game will enable Malkin to control and sustain things offensively. As I said, he'll be Malkin's Malone . . . the bull, the guy who mucks it up on the boards so Geno can come and grab out the puck, the give and go guy, and the guy who instinctively understands in a way that only Malone (and Talbot for 16 fortuitously timed games) understood how and when to support Geno and when to give him space, because with that comes Geno's trust and with Geno's trust comes an unstoppable line.
TK, Orpik for Stewart, Cole
Staal for Kumy, Bozak, 5th overall
Martin for (insert something here)
Sign Allen as UFA to short contract.
I agree with the poster above though, a 1:1 swap for Staal would be great. I just keep thinking that Staal for Ryan would help both teams. We need a #1 winger, Ducks need a #2 center. Dealing from strengths to fill a weakness. The trade works.
Then you have the duo's of Crosby-Ryan and Malkin-Neal. Sign a good 3C and we're right back in the game.
BTW, I'm a lot less interested in how many Kulemin will score than I am with how his game will enable Malkin to control and sustain things offensively. As I said, he'll be Malkin's Malone . . . the bull, the guy who mucks it up on the boards so Geno can come and grab out the puck, the give and go guy, and the guy who instinctively understands in a way that only Malone (and Talbot for 16 fortuitously timed games) understood how and when to support Geno and when to give him space, because with that comes Geno's trust and with Geno's trust comes an unstoppable line.
TK, Orpik for Stewart, Cole
Staal for Kumy, Bozak, 5th overall
Martin for (insert something here)
Sign Allen as UFA to short contract.
Would be sweet to try to pull off a Orpik/Martin for Setoguchi deal.
how about:
Staal + Tangradi for Kulemin + Matt Frattin + 5th (draft Forsberg if there)
Martin + TK for Setoguchi - going to take an overpayment to pry him away
Strait or Bortuzzo or a pick for Lindback
Lovejoy for a pick (5th?)
Sign Stoll
James Neal ($5.000m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($3.000m)
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Devin Setoguchi ($3.000m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Jarret Stoll ($3.600m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.575m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.675m)
Kris Letang ($3.500m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.250m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
Brian Strait ($0.095m) /
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Anders Lindback ($0.850m)
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $2,623,333 - more than enough cap room to add a good defenseman at the trade-deadline
trading Staal needs to result in a solution to the spectacular-defenseman-search or the dearth-of-complimentary-wingers-problem. here Malkin is set for the foreseeable future and hopefully at least one and maybe even two of Forsberg/Bennet/Frattin emerge as Crosby's longterm wingers and in the meanwhile Kunitz/Seto are solid compliments for him.
Stoll will resign with the Kings or make over 4 mil next year somewhere else. Not worth it for us. Staying out of free agency for anything but a reclamation project on the cheap is the route I want Shero to go.
Bryan Allen isn't going to be worth what he'll get this summer. He brings a stay-at-home presence that we could use, but I wouldn't pay him 4 mil, which is what he'll get if not more.
Yeah, Brayden Schenn scored five less goals than Sutter this year in 28 less games, and he's been better than Sutter at the CHL and AHL levels. Schenn's going to be a hell of a player for a long time. I'd love him on the Pens.
But I don't get the love for Luke Schenn around here. I can't see his ultimate upside being any greater than a Michalek or Orpik type, and while those are valuable players (most of the time) Luke's already being paid like he is at that level. And he just isn't.
Think you've confused Schenn with Couturier. Couturier's a studd. Schenn has done very well bullying 140 pound 16 year old latvians and terribly against anyone more physical and physically mature than that.
Bet you 500 vcash Schenn is traded due to non-development inside two years and spends the rest of his career bouncing around the league in relative obscurity. That or he sustains a career-threatening injury in the same rough time-frame and misses so much time he can't be moved.
Think you've confused Schenn with Couturier. Couturier's a studd. Schenn has done very well bullying 140 pound 16 year old latvians and terribly against anyone more physical and physically mature than that.
Bet you 500 vcash Schenn is traded due to non-development inside two years and spends the rest of his career bouncing around the league in relative obscurity. That or he sustains a career-threatening injury in the same rough time-frame and misses so much time he can't be moved.
Nope he's talking about Schenn. He scored 12 goals this year in 54 games (versus Sutter with 17 in 82 games) and has 8 points in 10 playoff games. The dude is only 20. He is going to be a good NHLer.
Am I the only one that really isn't much of a fan of Brandon Sutter as a centerpiece for Staal? I just don't see him as much more than a 40-45 point guy that's a little worse defensively than Staal. Like I understand that the 8th overall is the valuable piece there, but I'm not a fan of swapping first rounders there. The difference between Staal and Sutter is greater than the difference between 8 and (what I believe) is 21. And Martin is still a more valuable piece than an impending free agent Allen.
I really don't like that deal for us, sorry Jacob.
NO! You are not the only one. I fail to see where we come out as a better team with this deal and you do not allow any player to force his way out AND make your team potentially worse.
People talking about Luke Schenn potentially not being a good addition on the Penguins, think about this.
Who was Matt Niskanen when we got him from Dallas? A young defenseman who hasn't showed much improvement and Dallas used him as a throw in, in the deal for Goligoski.
He comes here and plays great and now us fans want to see him return.
Luke Schenn would probably flourish in the Pens defensive system. The fact that he's young and physical and is already a good attribute to the kind of player he is, that makes him more intriguing.
Plus, Luke Schenn and Brayden Schenn, sibling rivalry in a big rivalry.
People talking about Luke Schenn potentially not being a good addition on the Penguins, think about this.
Who was Matt Niskanen when we got him from Dallas? A young defenseman who hasn't showed much improvement and Dallas used him as a throw in, in the deal for Goligoski.
He comes here and plays great and now us fans want to see him return.
Luke Schenn would probably flourish in the Pens defensive system. The fact that he's young and physical and is already a good attribute to the kind of player he is, that makes him more intriguing.
Plus, Luke Schenn and Brayden Schenn, sibling rivalry in a big rivalry.
There's a lot of responsibility and puck management required of our D-men in this system. If what I hear about Schenn's play is true, he'd be crucified here.
I'm a bit torn on acquiring him. If he was still on an ELC and could trade his rights down the road, then I'd be all for it. But 3.6 mil is a tough pill to swallow for a project like him.
My concern with Kulemin is what his true offensive capabilities are. He can dominate the boards and that's great but he needs to be a 25+ lock goal scorer if we're giving up Staal. Hard to figure him because his shooting percentage was abnormally high for his 30 goal season and abnormally low this past season.
I also don't really see the love for Stewart or Cole in some of these proposals. Stewart just doesn't seem to have the drive to truly maximize his talent and settles for Penner-like coasting. Cole was St. Louis' 6th/7th d-man and doesn't have overwhelming size, physical play, or puck-moving abilities - what is he going to bring that we don't already have in Despres or Bortuzzo (or Strait)? I wouldn't want to trade a useful chip like Orpik for that return, as I've seen mentioned here.
People talking about Luke Schenn potentially not being a good addition on the Penguins, think about this.
Who was Matt Niskanen when we got him from Dallas? A young defenseman who hasn't showed much improvement and Dallas used him as a throw in, in the deal for Goligoski.
He comes here and plays great and now us fans want to see him return.
Luke Schenn would probably flourish in the Pens defensive system. The fact that he's young and physical and is already a good attribute to the kind of player he is, that makes him more intriguing.
Plus, Luke Schenn and Brayden Schenn, sibling rivalry in a big rivalry.
I find Schenn intriguing in some ways and if he was on a different contract I'd be in favor but he's being paid a good chunk of money to be a solid, physical shut-down d-man and he isn't there yet. Well, the hits are there but the solid/shut-down part isn't. Plus, don't overlook the fact that Niskanen is signed dirt-cheap and was considered an after thought throw-in to the Neal trade to begin with. If Nisky had a $3.6m caphit and was one of the main pieces we traded Jordan Staal for, he would be evaluated in a different (more critical) light.
I'm also skeptical that Schenn would flourish in the system we have now, with its emphasis on mobility and puck movement. Maybe if Bylsma changes things up it'd be different but his strength is not cerebral hockey.
People talking about Luke Schenn potentially not being a good addition on the Penguins, think about this.
Who was Matt Niskanen when we got him from Dallas? A young defenseman who hasn't showed much improvement and Dallas used him as a throw in, in the deal for Goligoski.
He comes here and plays great and now us fans want to see him return.
Luke Schenn would probably flourish in the Pens defensive system. The fact that he's young and physical and is already a good attribute to the kind of player he is, that makes him more intriguing.
Plus, Luke Schenn and Brayden Schenn, sibling rivalry in a big rivalry.
Matt Niskanen had a confidence problem in Dallas. His play suffered when Zubov left. He was supposed to be their #1 or #2 d-man after Zubov left and when he couldn't be that, he was crucified there by everyone. Niskanen always had the talent but he needs to be somewhere, where he's a #4 guy or so, which he is here. Niskanen's style also plays into what Bylsma wants from his defensemen.
Comparing Niskanen to Schenn is comparing apples to oranges. Schenn has all the tools to be a #3 or #4 guy. His positioning and defensive work was terrible last year. He is a $3.6m project whose upside is being Brooks Orpik and nothing more.
If you think we can afford to bring Schenn in and have him play #5 or #6 minutes, then by all means. With how bad Orpik, Martin, and Michalek's defensive play has declined over the past year, I'm not sure I'd be taking a gamble on Schenn becoming a better defender in Pittsburgh unless we had an assistant coach the likes of Larry Robinson or Randy Carlyle on our team.
I'm also skeptical that Schenn would flourish in the system we have now, with its emphasis on mobility and puck movement. Maybe if Bylsma changes things up it'd be different but his strength is not cerebral hockey.
This. Funny, when Shero and Bylsma talked about the defense after signing Martin, I specifically remember them talking about how the defensive game in the NHL has changed and it's more transition based now, relying on great skaters/passers and less clutch/grab stay at home type of guys.
Maybe in the regular season but their assessment was off on this one for at least this playoff season...
Obstruction is invited right back for the playoffs.
They key thing in ANY deal coming back for Staal is quality over quantity. There has to be at least one player/prospect coming back in the deal that is/can be as good as Jordan Staal is. So, for example...
If I'm trading Staal and the primary asset coming back is a Dman, it has to be someone who can be a #1, because we have a lot of Dmen in the system already. So think, for example, about guys like Ekman-Larsson, Yandle, Gudbranson, Kulikov, Bogosian, Ryan Suter, Dougie Hamilton, Adam Larsson, Pietrangelo, etc. I'm not saying any of those guys would be available, but it has to be a player with that kind of upside coming back the other way.
Schenn is an intriguing young player, but I do not believe he has true #1 Dman potential, and is probably more of a #3 guy.
There's a lot of responsibility and puck management required of our D-men in this system. If what I hear about Schenn's play is true, he'd be crucified here.
I'm a bit torn on acquiring him. If he was still on an ELC and could trade his rights down the road, then I'd be all for it. But 3.6 mil is a tough pill to swallow for a project like him.
You don't trade Staal for guys who are looking for a change of scenery in order to rebound.
Whoever gets Staal is getting a rare commodity: A young, big, workhorse of a player who would be centering a lot of first or second lines in this League. Whoever gets him isn't exactly taking a risk.
In other words, the Pens shouldn't be trading for players that have any negative conditions attached to them, such as "Maybe he had an off year" or "Maybe playing with Sid or Geno will do wonders for him".
I'm talking about pure hockey trades, like the Neal trade or the Carter/Richards trades during the summer. Any "projects" we may have to undertake in exchange for Staal is unacceptable.
I mean nothing we say here matters anyway, but I want no part of anything Toronto has to offer regardless, especially not for Staal.
Think you've confused Schenn with Couturier. Couturier's a studd. Schenn has done very well bullying 140 pound 16 year old latvians and terribly against anyone more physical and physically mature than that.
Bet you 500 vcash Schenn is traded due to non-development inside two years and spends the rest of his career bouncing around the league in relative obscurity. That or he sustains a career-threatening injury in the same rough time-frame and misses so much time he can't be moved.
I'd argue that Schenn in 2009 was considered a better prospect than Couturier in 2011, and coming into this season Schenn was definitely seen as the better prospect. I think Schenn has the highest offensive upside out of the big three Philly rookies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield
Comparing Niskanen to Schenn is comparing apples to oranges. Schenn has all the tools to be a #3 or #4 guy. His positioning and defensive work was terrible last year. He is a $3.6m project whose upside is being Brooks Orpik and nothing more.
Bingo. I guess one could argue that his ceiling is Adam Foote, but I'm not sure Schenn has the hockey IQ or the legendary mean streak of Foote.
But the main point is that Schenn is already being paid as if he's a very good shutdown D-man, and he isn't yet. He might become one in the future but given the Pens cap situation I wouldn't want to be paying him $3.6M a season to find out.
The more I think about it, Staal for 5th+Kulemin+Bozak would be amazing, even if we need to throw in another asset. Bozak would offset a lot of the production loss from Staal, although he's less of a shooter - and he'd help us a lot on faceoffs. I know Staal has improved that part of his game a bit, but Bozak is still better in that department. Getting a high pick and a guy who's scored 30 goals before on top of that would make it a pretty amazing deal, I think. Kulemin is a risk for sure, but he has the talent and he's a good player even when he's not scoring. If playing with Malkin full-time helps revitalize him then that kind of deal would be a huge win.
Kulemin is better than Wayne Simmonds. He's a more complete player and has just as much offensive upside. The 5th overall holds significant value to a team so close to the cap. The third piece I'm not sure what would be best.
I'd like Bobby Ryan in a one for one swap as well. That'd probably be the best scenario. But people acting like Kulemin+5th is scraps are nuts.
I actually like Duper in that third line center position. Responsible, fast, PK's, ect... Everything you look for in a third line center. With his new level of offensive play could take a nip of what they lose in a Jordan departure.
People talking about Luke Schenn potentially not being a good addition on the Penguins, think about this.
Who was Matt Niskanen when we got him from Dallas? A young defenseman who hasn't showed much improvement and Dallas used him as a throw in, in the deal for Goligoski.
He comes here and plays great and now us fans want to see him return.
Luke Schenn would probably flourish in the Pens defensive system. The fact that he's young and physical and is already a good attribute to the kind of player he is, that makes him more intriguing.
Plus, Luke Schenn and Brayden Schenn, sibling rivalry in a big rivalry.
I hope he doesn't 'flourish in the Pens defensive system' like the Pens defenseman he's most often compared to.
Kulemin is better than Wayne Simmonds. He's a more complete player and has just as much offensive upside. The 5th overall holds significant value to a team so close to the cap. The third piece I'm not sure what would be best.
I'd like Bobby Ryan in a one for one swap as well. That'd probably be the best scenario. But people acting like Kulemin+5th is scraps are nuts.
You're not getting Bobby Ryan, and it's got nothing to do with hockey value.
Anaheim has a budget. They have to deal with Getzlaf and Perry this summer. You think they're trading for Staal and giving him 6.5M plus? What would that mean for their deals with Getzlaf and Perry?
It's the same reason I can't see a deal happening with St Louis (look at all their RFA's and how Staal getting 6.5M would wreck their cap structure. Same thing with Edmonton.
I wrote this before: Don't think of a good trade partner as someone who's got interesting assets. A good trade partner for Staal is a team that:
(a) Has assets that Ray Shero will want.
(b) Is (conceivably) willing to move those assets to get Staal.
(c) Can and would pay Staal 6.5M+ without cap/budget issues.
Toronto can do it. Carolina can do it. Minnesota can do it. Buffalo could do it. There probably are up to 2-3 other teams that fit the bill.
Again, what you want/need is a situation where two, preferably three of them get into a bidding war. That's how you'll get that extra asset beyond what Philly got in the Carter or Richards deals.
The more I think about it, Staal for 5th+Kulemin+Bozak would be amazing, even if we need to throw in another asset. Bozak would offset a lot of the production loss from Staal, although he's less of a shooter - and he'd help us a lot on faceoffs. I know Staal has improved that part of his game a bit, but Bozak is still better in that department. Getting a high pick and a guy who's scored 30 goals before on top of that would make it a pretty amazing deal, I think. Kulemin is a risk for sure, but he has the talent and he's a good player even when he's not scoring. If playing with Malkin full-time helps revitalize him then that kind of deal would be a huge win.
I don't think you would or should have to throw in another asset.
And, lest people forget, you look at everything Philly got in the Richards and Carter trades. What was the 'surest' thing? I suspect Wayne Simmonds, and that was no 'sure thing'.
Look, a one for one for Skinner or Ryan would be nice, but neither is happening. If Shero's looking deal, then I think he's looking to beat the Carter and Richards deals, for three instead of two assets comparable to what Philly got in those deals.
The thing is . . . I think he'll get it. As I said, it will be a bidding war. You'll get to the point where Minny offers Seto and the 7th, where Toronto offers Kumy and the 5th, and where Carolina offers Sutter and the 8th (Minny and Carolina probably will offer to take Martin, Toronto may bump by including Bozak).
The goal then is to get one of them to make one bump more. Minny and Coyle. Carolina and Faulk. Toronto and Ashton (you may need to send a 2nd back or something with Coyle or Faulk).
Personally, I expect one of those teams to make that extra bump.
The deals for Richards and Carter were done in the dark. They happened before half the league knew about it. Staal gets out there-- where there's not another guy who's like him in terms of upside, age, etc-- and it's going to be a bidding war.
Side note: Last year, Toronto was offered Carter for Kulemin and Schenn (where Schenn was coming off a good season and Kulemin was coming off his 30 goal season). Burke hedged, asked about Richards, lost out on both. Do you think he's going to hedge again? I really do think he's going to be the guy to step up because he'll see Staal doing more for him next year than say Bozak and Kumy (and the 5th and maybe Ashton as contributing little if anything). Burke needs to make the playoffs, needs to get that team headed in the right direction. He'll make a play that IMO would make 2/3 of the Leafs fans here **** their collective pants.
I said this on the trades forum in the Pens/Leafs thread.
Quote:
Kulemin+5th Overall+Schenn makes alot of sense IMO. It's steep, but that's the price you pay for a hot commodity(sp?). Fact is, Centers are really wanted around the league, that's the biggest position between them and the 2 wingers. I think Shero would let Burke make a deal with Staal come July, although before July would be considered tampering, right? (same as soon to be UFA's...they are still under contract untill July). I'd hope that is a package that would get Shero to listen. Pens need shutdown Dmen, and Schenn is still young enough to develope into a solid one who loves to throw them down, which Pens could use aswell. Schenn or Bozak even, Bozak could fill Staal's 3C role and Pens could still roll the 3C, Bozak could also fill in with the pinch. Pens could then dangle 5th OV, and Martin for a Dman if we got Bozak instead of Schenn or a winger if we got Schenn instead of Bozak, since top 4 PMD's are also a hot commodity (sp?), and Martins a good one for the right team.
What ya think? pretty much turns Staal+Martin into Schenn or Bozak+Kulemin+whoever we get for the 5th OV (in the Martin deal).
