HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Looks like someone can score on Pekka Rinne

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-30-2012, 10:06 PM
  #76
GentlemanMasher*
Registered Abuser
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Country: Ajman
Posts: 906
vCash: 500
It's a tough place to be in. I think juggling was necessary but I think he got hyper with it and didn't give some lines enough time. I know they're only playing 4-7 games but damn, one or two shifts? C'mon. And I think the one line that was never attempted would've been the best-ZDH. Nothing else worked and we tried some failed lines twice or more. Why not try this? All three of them were trying their ***** off. So what if we stack? We never do and that might've been the time to do it.

Part of me will always wonder if he knew this and intentionally kept them apart. Why bother barely winning now and losing next round or the round after? Losing in round one sends a better message. I know he wouldn't have totally thrown the series but I think it was a "well if we win, awesome, if we don't at least it can be a positive too" sorta thing. Babcock if you ask me knows damn well there are a few bodies that need to go and a few that need to be added, and losing in the second or third round doesn't drive the point home as much as losing in 5 to an inferior team. I still think he wanted to win but knew that losing would also not be without it's upside.

GentlemanMasher* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2012, 10:18 PM
  #77
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,314
vCash: 500
Babcock's line juggling was a joke.

He failed to give Datsyuk any time with Zetterberg or Filppula. Instead he gave him Cleary.

silkyjohnson50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2012, 10:20 PM
  #78
SoupNazi
Global Moderator
No Soup for You!!!
 
SoupNazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kramerica Industries
Country: Argentina
Posts: 16,823
vCash: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Part of me will always wonder if he knew this and intentionally kept them apart. Why bother barely winning now and losing next round or the round after? Losing in round one sends a better message. I know he wouldn't have totally thrown the series but I think it was a "well if we win, awesome, if we don't at least it can be a positive too" sorta thing. Babcock if you ask me knows damn well there are a few bodies that need to go and a few that need to be added, and losing in the second or third round doesn't drive the point home as much as losing in 5 to an inferior team. I still think he wanted to win but knew that losing would also not be without it's upside.
This actually makes a ton of sense. Not that I want to think Babcock threw in the towel, but losing in the 1st round really woke Illitch and Holland up (I hope) to the fact that some changes are needed, which I'm sure Babcock recognized earlier.

SoupNazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2012, 11:02 PM
  #79
Bench
Moderator
Realgud!
 
Bench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Monk's
Posts: 7,249
vCash: 500
No f'ing way Babcock thought there was an upside to losing. No way. The guy is all grit and heart. Insane.

What he really thought was, "Suter and Weber are shutting down 1 line 100% of the time. Maybe Z or D can work magic when they are off the ice."

That's it.

Bench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2012, 11:42 PM
  #80
GentlemanMasher*
Registered Abuser
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Country: Ajman
Posts: 906
vCash: 500
I don't like it but he refused to do it both with and without last change. And in both of those scenarios he needed goals late. I think he wanted to win but I don't think he got as desperate as he would have if we were in let's say, the finals and were about to be eliminated. I swear we were at the point where 4th line non-scorers were about to be paired with Hank and Pav instead of just uniting them and getting some goals. The most obvious line pairing there is didn't get put together once all series? Either Babs is doing that to send a msg or he's forgotten how to coach and I don't think he forgot how to coach overnight. I think it's entirely possible that a man who is a known psychologist who uses his words and actions as tools would purposely keep that line apart to prove we need depth. It's possible to be trying extremely hard to win, but not doing every single thing you can.

GentlemanMasher* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-01-2012, 04:10 AM
  #81
14ari13
Registered User
 
14ari13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Western Sahara
Country: Norway
Posts: 9,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
I don't think they're soft, I just think they go through these phases where things aren't going their way and they just pack it in. Instead of squeezing their sticks, they say "screw it" and lob pucks at the net from wherever. The proper response would be to swarm on the forecheck and collapse in the defensive zone. Instead, they send one guy after the puck to lose a quick battle on the forecheck and they get caught wandering around chasing the puck in their own zone.

How many Preds goals were scored by guys that were left completely alone in front of the Wings' net? And how many shots did the Wings get in that series where there weren't at least three Preds defenders plus a goalie in that area?

Maybe that's soft, and I'm just not defining it that way. I dunno.



I don't question Babcock's motivation. I think the post-series statements he made are proof that he is absolutely disgusted at this team.

It seems to me that Babcock is pounding the wall until his fists are bloody but these guys just aren't doing what he wants them to do. I get two messages from his "we need free agents and more depth" statements:

1. "These guys won't listen so Kenny better get me other guys that will listen."

2. "If he doesn't, I'm done."




Good god, that is just awful. If you connect the dots between the faceoff dots and the goal posts, they had TWO shots in the prime scoring zone. In an elimination game. Disgusting. The Yotes had so many shots in that zone I can't even count them because the dots overlap so much. At least 12 shots.



Eh, I'm not sure. Game 5 was by far the worst, but the other games were pretty bad too.

Game 4 shows a bunch of Wing shots from the crease - they only had a couple actual shots from the prime scoring zone there, and a whole bunch of tip attempts on long soft shots. Rinne didn't have much trouble with those. You could tell by this point that the D and Rinne were in the Wings' heads, and they didn't believe they could actually get shots from good areas. They were resigned to put someone in front and try to do a lob-and-tip play over and over and over. And Rinne wasn't fooled.

Game 3 looks like there are more shots there as well, but then you look at who was doing the shooting. Quincey. Ericsson. Homer. Miller. Nyquist. Abdelkader. Notice something missing there? Pretty much nothing from Bert. Z's shots were all from bad angles and far away. They needed to get their good shooters the puck in the prime scoring zone and get them to actually shoot and hit the net. If those guys were shooting from that zone, they were either missing the net or hitting shinpads.

Game 2 is tough to judge because the Wings pretty much stopped trying to score when they got the lead. Not much in the prime scoring zone but more than game 5. The Preds got a ton of great chances in this game and if not for Howard's great play they almost certainly would have lost this one too.

Game 1 is the best shot chart of the series for the Wings. Datsyuk, Filppula, Zetterberg, Bertuzzi, and Franzen all got multiple shots from the prime scoring zone.

The thing that bugs me the most about game 5 is the third period shot chart. They just rolled over. One shot from a forward the whole period, it was from Drew Miller, and it was from a bad angle. Unacceptable.
What I really think we have to look at is
1. Babcock's motivation. Was this an off year for Babcock? Like players, coaches can have a bad season. Saying that this was not a good season for Babcock is not like saying Babcock is a bad coach. Obvioulsy Babcock is a great, great coach. But I do not see why we could not question his decisions this year, cause it seems to me that he made some big mistakes.
2. On the same page. There are several options here.
A. Are Babcock and Holland on the same page?
B. Are the players and Babcock on the same page?

14ari13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-01-2012, 04:17 AM
  #82
14ari13
Registered User
 
14ari13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Western Sahara
Country: Norway
Posts: 9,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Babcock's line juggling was a joke.

He failed to give Datsyuk any time with Zetterberg or Filppula. Instead he gave him Cleary.
I am really not happy how Babcock managed the forwards.
Earlier this season Filppula and Franzen were clicking. We know that Z and D do their magic, they did not in a long time.
But I do not get why Babcock did not try these 2 options.

I also wonder why he did not try Lidstrom with White.
And Stuart stuggled. Why did not he do anythig with him?

14ari13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-01-2012, 09:37 AM
  #83
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pac NW
Country:
Posts: 29,690
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
I don't think they're soft, I just think they go through these phases where things aren't going their way and they just pack it in. Instead of squeezing their sticks, they say "screw it" and lob pucks at the net from wherever. The proper response would be to swarm on the forecheck and collapse in the defensive zone. Instead, they send one guy after the puck to lose a quick battle on the forecheck and they get caught wandering around chasing the puck in their own zone.
Quote:
Good god, that is just awful. If you connect the dots between the faceoff dots and the goal posts, they had TWO shots in the prime scoring zone. In an elimination game. Disgusting. The Yotes had so many shots in that zone I can't even count them because the dots overlap so much. At least 12 shots.

I dunno. Maybe they were doing what the coach told them to do... put the puck on net. Not... wait til you're in this section... lob it on the net as soon as you have it. They get worn out chasing the damn thing after they lob it, or just one or two bodies can get through.

Heck, if you're the coach on the other side and you know they'll just lob it on the net.... why would you chase them out to the perimeters? You'd park your D down low, lock out their players and grab the puck.

Fugu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-01-2012, 09:53 AM
  #84
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,214
vCash: 500
you cant teach ANH 1st liners to play on the top line in the NHL

the fact of the matter is hudler, filppula, cleary, bertuzzi and franzen are NOT NHL first line players and 3 of those five really arent even good enough to be on the 2nd line, and unfortunately that is all that was at Babcocks disposal.

personnel decisions are 100% the responsability of the GM

holland choose they players deliberately and with intent, not by accident, not by default.

if babcock failed too coach elite players properly then the blame is his

if holland failed to provide elite players the problem is his

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-01-2012, 10:50 PM
  #85
Bench
Moderator
Realgud!
 
Bench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Monk's
Posts: 7,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
you cant teach ANH 1st liners to play on the top line in the NHL

the fact of the matter is hudler, filppula, cleary, bertuzzi and franzen are NOT NHL first line players and 3 of those five really arent even good enough to be on the 2nd line, and unfortunately that is all that was at Babcocks disposal.
That's true. We can't match other team's first liners like Pheonix star Boyd Gordon.

Or Nashville superstar David Legwand. Oh man, how could I forget Alexander Steen.

Look at the guys on the top lines for the teams battling it out now. You can have success without an all-star team. Detroit didn't find a way, but blaming the lack of star power is a shallow excuse when you realize Boyd Gordon is literally the top Phoenix center and they are up 2 games on the dreaded Predators.

Bench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-01-2012, 11:51 PM
  #86
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 8,203
vCash: 500
The Wings were really lazy against Nashville. Nashville forced them outside and the Wings were OK with that. It resulted in really bad shots that usually got swallowed up by Rinne.

Johan Franzen was hilarious. The guy would just shoot the puck directly into Rinne's glove the second he got it. He couldnt wait to get off the ice. One of the most gutless performances by a Red Wing that i have ever seen.

All players did this to an extent, but Franzen was the biggest offender.

Hardwork beats talent when talent doesnt work hard. That quote perfectly sums up the first round series.

Almost all of the Coyotes goals were rebound/"garbage" goals with tons of traffic in front of Rinne with a bunch of Coyotes outworking the Preds to gain position.

WingedWheel1987 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 01:15 AM
  #87
GentlemanMasher*
Registered Abuser
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Country: Ajman
Posts: 906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
The Wings were really lazy against Nashville. Nashville forced them outside and the Wings were OK with that. It resulted in really bad shots that usually got swallowed up by Rinne.

Johan Franzen was hilarious. The guy would just shoot the puck directly into Rinne's glove the second he got it. He couldnt wait to get off the ice. One of the most gutless performances by a Red Wing that i have ever seen.


All players did this to an extent, but Franzen was the biggest offender.

Hardwork beats talent when talent doesnt work hard. That quote perfectly sums up the first round series.

Almost all of the Coyotes goals were rebound/"garbage" goals with tons of traffic in front of Rinne with a bunch of Coyotes outworking the Preds to gain position.
Dead on. Franzen and that attitude has to go. We seriously need to nip this issue in the bud before it spreads. We can't afford to become a team that allows this type of crap because it's so hard to get rid of it once it's set in. Back after the 2002 team won we became a lazy bunch of ***** and it took some hard work to weed out the floaters. Once we did, we won the Cup with Lilja, Lebda, Sammy and Kopecky. If you signed those 4 guys today you'd see a lot of internet Wings fans climbing tall ledges.

We're trying to find reasons why we lost, like our players all getting worse when they're not-you don't forget how to be awesome overnight. Lack of grit, when it's not really that either. We've won without it and can play gritty when we need to. It's just flat out laziness on the part of some players, and it killed the performances of the guys who weren't lazy. That's it. I don't think it's any coincidence that the longer Franzen's been here, the more his "meh" attitude has spread. Get rid of that damn garbage attitude now. Or it ain't gonna get any better. Say goodbye to anyone who doesn't want to skate and welcome with open arms the guys who do.

The worst part about being insanely skilled is that you can sometimes just rest on that. We force the perfect play until the clocks up and we've lost. We don't want to get dirty because most of the time we don't have to. But when we do not everyone is on board.

GentlemanMasher* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 02:48 AM
  #88
14ari13
Registered User
 
14ari13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Western Sahara
Country: Norway
Posts: 9,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
This actually makes a ton of sense. Not that I want to think Babcock threw in the towel, but losing in the 1st round really woke Illitch and Holland up (I hope) to the fact that some changes are needed, which I'm sure Babcock recognized earlier.
I actually think Babcock did throw in the towel and that pisses me off.

14ari13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 08:01 AM
  #89
Huddy*
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bloomfield Hills, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 2,513
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Huddy*
Quote:
Originally Posted by chances14 View Post
Rinne has been garbage so far

Nashville looks like a team that was just glad to beat the wings.
^ this..

Nashville's Stanley Cup was the series against Detroit...They could care less about advancing past the 2nd rd...

Nashville v Detroit -- Nashville played as if it were the cup

Nashville v PHX -- Nashville looks like their playing an exhibition game

God I hate the Salary Cap. Hate Bettman for allowing radu****ckfkjf to come back. Pissed the Wings couldnt have been more agressive going to the net..

Huddy* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 08:04 AM
  #90
Huddy*
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bloomfield Hills, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 2,513
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Huddy*
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post
I actually think Babcock did throw in the towel and that pisses me off.
Babcock threw in the towel once Holland added Quincey, and did nothing else to improve the top 6....

Holland thinks still like the NHL isnt in a Salary Cap, meaning he believes the best free agents will want to play in Detroit.

Banking on offering Parise, Suter, Weber, etc to come to Detroit just bc of our past, is a quick way to get removed. Holland is on that path. He had plethora of opportunites to add a key player(s) at the deadline.

Huddy* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 08:35 AM
  #91
SoupNazi
Global Moderator
No Soup for You!!!
 
SoupNazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kramerica Industries
Country: Argentina
Posts: 16,823
vCash: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Whale View Post
Babcock threw in the towel once Holland added Quincey, and did nothing else to improve the top 6....

Holland thinks still like the NHL isnt in a Salary Cap, meaning he believes the best free agents will want to play in Detroit.

Banking on offering Parise, Suter, Weber, etc to come to Detroit just bc of our past, is a quick way to get removed. Holland is on that path. He had plethora of opportunites to add a key player(s) at the deadline.
What was out there to improve the Top-6 at the deadline?

SoupNazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 08:45 AM
  #92
KingzOverAcez
Registered User
 
KingzOverAcez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
What was out there to improve the Top-6 at the deadline?
Gaustad but Holland wasted the 1st rounder on Quincey.

KingzOverAcez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 08:49 AM
  #93
SoupNazi
Global Moderator
No Soup for You!!!
 
SoupNazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kramerica Industries
Country: Argentina
Posts: 16,823
vCash: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingzOverAcez View Post
Gaustad but Holland wasted the 1st rounder on Quincey.
Gaustad is a Bottom-6 player on every team in the league.

SoupNazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 08:52 AM
  #94
KingzOverAcez
Registered User
 
KingzOverAcez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Gaustad is a Bottom-6 player on every team in the league.
My apologies - I thought that said bottom and not Top 6.

In that case there wasn't any Top 6 players that Holland wasn't going to have to give up the farm for (Nash, Richards, etc.)

KingzOverAcez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 09:28 AM
  #95
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 25,052
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Johan Franzen was hilarious. The guy would just shoot the puck directly into Rinne's glove the second he got it. He couldnt wait to get off the ice. One of the most gutless performances by a Red Wing that i have ever seen.

All players did this to an extent, but Franzen was the biggest offender.

Hardwork beats talent when talent doesnt work hard. That quote perfectly sums up the first round series.
Don't tip toe around it. Every player on the team minus three guys didn't show up. Don't make a scapegoat just because you want a single player to blame (and who easier than the floater who led the team in scoring?)

ArGarBarGar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 09:41 AM
  #96
ZetterBurger
Registered User
 
ZetterBurger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Detroit, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingzOverAcez View Post
Gaustad but Holland wasted the 1st rounder on Quincey.
Enough of this. If you had every GM in the league answer the question, "Who got the better value for their 1st rounder?" Every single one of them, except MAYBE Poile, would say Detroit. I hate the fact that most of you assume that a 1st round pick (nobody knows who the hell will be there) is worth more than a good defenseman.

On to the thread, Nashville does look like **** and it does appear they really just wanted to beat Detroit. Looks like they game planned so much on stopping the Wings that they completely forgot how to stop a team that really is a lesser version of the Nashville Predators.

ZetterBurger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 09:46 AM
  #97
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 25,052
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
Enough of this. If you had every GM in the league answer the question, "Who got the better value for their 1st rounder?" Every single one of them, except MAYBE Poile, would say Detroit. I hate the fact that most of you assume that a 1st round pick (nobody knows who the hell will be there) is worth more than a good defenseman.

On to the thread, Nashville does look like **** and it does appear they really just wanted to beat Detroit. Looks like they game planned so much on stopping the Wings that they completely forgot how to stop a team that really is a lesser version of the Nashville Predators.
See: Sharks of 2010 and 2011.

ArGarBarGar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 09:49 AM
  #98
KingzOverAcez
Registered User
 
KingzOverAcez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
Enough of this. If you had every GM in the league answer the question, "Who got the better value for their 1st rounder?" Every single one of them, except MAYBE Poile, would say Detroit. I hate the fact that most of you assume that a 1st round pick (nobody knows who the hell will be there) is worth more than a good defenseman.

On to the thread, Nashville does look like **** and it does appear they really just wanted to beat Detroit. Looks like they game planned so much on stopping the Wings that they completely forgot how to stop a team that really is a lesser version of the Nashville Predators.
I like when someone puts words in my mouth -- I never said that the 1st rounder was going to be better than Quincey. I would rather have seen Holland get Gaustad instead of Quincey and had Smith up for more of the season than he was.

Gaustad would have given DET a stronger bottom 6, and instead we have Quincey as Stuart's most likely backup in the Top 4 next season which doesn't bode well as I don't see him being a suitable replacement for Stuart (unless Holland finds a Top 4 DMan in the market this summer)

KingzOverAcez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 09:51 AM
  #99
caseygraves
Don Cherry apologist
 
caseygraves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jackson Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 2,443
vCash: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Dead on. Franzen and that attitude has to go. We seriously need to nip this issue in the bud before it spreads. We can't afford to become a team that allows this type of crap because it's so hard to get rid of it once it's set in. Back after the 2002 team won we became a lazy bunch of ***** and it took some hard work to weed out the floaters. Once we did, we won the Cup with Lilja, Lebda, Sammy and Kopecky. If you signed those 4 guys today you'd see a lot of internet Wings fans climbing tall ledges.
I dont think we could have won the cup in 2008 without Franzen.

But to your point that we dont play the dirty game because we dont need to is right on point. During the regular season we saw the team trying to score the dirty goals more when they were behind. They floated when the score was tied, and they really floated when they were well ahead of course.

caseygraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2012, 10:07 AM
  #100
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 8,203
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Don't tip toe around it. Every player on the team minus three guys didn't show up. Don't make a scapegoat just because you want a single player to blame (and who easier than the floater who led the team in scoring?)
I know most of the team didn't show up. He was the best example though. Just watching him watch the puck go into the boards and he would just let the preds get the puck. He didn't even pretend to hustle. It was sickening. Babcock noticed it too, but unfortunately he waited too long to demote him.

WingedWheel1987 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:14 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.