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ECSF Game 2: Caps at Rangers 730 PM at MSG

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Old
05-01-2012, 12:16 PM
  #976
Icetime
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Originally Posted by bgroban View Post
Speaking for myself - I was a Caps fan long before Alex got here, and I will be a Caps fan long after he is gone. Love watching him score 60+ goals, but if it came down to those vs. Stanley Cups, I will take the Cup 10/10 times. Regardless of who is on the team.
I would imagine you are speaking for many a Caps fan.

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05-01-2012, 12:22 PM
  #977
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of course it doesnt come down to that choice, does it? if the caps dont win it this season, and 8 is moved to someplace more friendly, what are the chances that move makes the caps a cup winner?

its possible perhaps. its not really the choice on the table. if ovechkin leaves 3 chance out of 4 they get no better or get worse.

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05-01-2012, 12:27 PM
  #978
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I'm not sure I agree with that logic.

You're still relying on Semin, Backstrom and Green to do the lion's share of work beyond Ovechkin. I think Semin and Green are inherently flawed parts in the playoffs. I think the verdict is out on Green, and I'm certain he doesn't provide the offense. I also think the top 6 on both of those teams is significantly better. Flash, Sergei, Kozlov, etc, were all better than the miscasts they have out there at times.

While I think the bottom 6 has gotten better, I'm not sure I completely buy it. Though Gordon and Steckel have had cameos as decent 2 way forwards with a good faceoff percentage. Heck, Gordon's been a complete shutdown menace in the past. Bradley for all his warts put on a decent effort in the first NY series. Cooke was here. Few others with servicable talents. I certainly would agree that the defense is upgraded, though Wideman and Schultz are still poor. I still think that if you take Carlson or Alzner from the bunch, they're a stack of cards. You also should note that Erskine has been one of the better playoff defenders on this roster in the last few seasons.

Yet, I wonder if some of what they're able to do is not as much a result of Hunter catering to his grinders strength and helping to make the defense better.
Let's take a look at the 2008-09 season, as that's as far as they've advanced since the lockout:

Top-6
Ovechkin-Fedorov-Kozlov
Laich-Backstrom-Semin

Certainly a comparable top-6 to now. Kozlov was a better puck handler and protector than Mojo, but Mojo's better at everything else. Fedorov is an upgrade over Chimera. Slight advantage: 2008-09.

Bottom-6 (I don't even remember how it was configured, honestly)
Flash-Steckel?-Fehr
Clark-Gordon?-Bradley

The bottom 6 now with Beagle, Brouwer, Ward, and Knuble is miles better than that hodgepodge of ill-fitting pieces. Advantage: 2011-12

And now, the real kicker, the defense:

Poti-Green
Morrissonn-Jurcina
Erskine-Pothier

Massive, massive advantage 2011-12.

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05-01-2012, 12:30 PM
  #979
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I miss Juice.

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05-01-2012, 12:39 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Let's take a look at the 2008-09 season, as that's as far as they've advanced since the lockout:

Top-6
Ovechkin-Fedorov-Kozlov
Laich-Backstrom-Semin

Certainly a comparable top-6 to now. Kozlov was a better puck handler and protector than Mojo, but Mojo's better at everything else. Fedorov is an upgrade over Chimera. Slight advantage: 2008-09.

Bottom-6 (I don't even remember how it was configured, honestly)
Flash-Steckel?-Fehr
Clark-Gordon?-Bradley

The bottom 6 now with Beagle, Brouwer, Ward, and Knuble is miles better than that hodgepodge of ill-fitting pieces. Advantage: 2011-12

And now, the real kicker, the defense:

Poti-Green
Morrissonn-Jurcina
Erskine-Pothier

Massive, massive advantage 2011-12.
ovechkin, semin, and green were far far far better players back then. they had 121 goals between them that year compared to 62 this year

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05-01-2012, 12:42 PM
  #981
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I miss Juice.
Wideman has me missing Jurcina as well. Sad.

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05-01-2012, 12:44 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by um View Post
ovechkin, semin, and green were far far far better players back then. they had 121 goals between them that year compared to 62 this year
Ovechkin was playoffs-wise, but I'm talking about the cast around him. Semin and Green may have been marginally more effective, but not by much.


Last edited by NobodyBeatsTheWiz: 05-01-2012 at 12:51 PM.
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Old
05-01-2012, 12:44 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Wideman has me missing Jurcina as well. Sad.
Ladies and gentleman, George McPhee's 2012 Free Agency splash.

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05-01-2012, 12:45 PM
  #984
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would you support staying this style next season and trading ovechkin to make room for players that fit the system better? ov out...parise in, say
This "style" can expand.

I point you to Claude Julien and the Bruins.

Everyone was saying Julien's system is too defensive. Everyone. But as his players learned the system, as HE learned his players, he expanded. And everything came together pretty nicely for that team last year.

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05-01-2012, 12:50 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by tycoonheart View Post
This "style" can expand.

I point you to Claude Julien and the Bruins.

Everyone was saying Julien's system is too defensive. Everyone. But as his players learned the system, as HE learned his players, he expanded. And everything came together pretty nicely for that team last year.
then ov's ice isnt an issue. it can expand does not mean that it will expand.

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05-01-2012, 12:55 PM
  #986
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Ladies and gentleman, George McPhee's 2012 Free Agency splash.
Well, if you believe the reports, Kuz has decided to stay in the KHL...

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Old
05-01-2012, 01:00 PM
  #987
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then ov's ice isnt an issue. it can expand does not mean that it will expand.
I think 13 minutes of ice time will end up being the floor for Ovi, not the ceiling. It's the smallest amount of TOI he's had in the playoffs, and he played 21 minutes on Saturday.

I'd also observe that, notwithstanding the media theme that the Caps are doing what they're doing w/o their stars, the fact is they've won 5 post-season playoff games, and got the GWGs in 3 of them on great displays of skill and savvy from Nicky, Semin, and Ovi.

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05-01-2012, 01:03 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
I think 13 minutes of ice time will end up being the floor for Ovi, not the ceiling. It's the smallest amount of TOI he's had in the playoffs, and he played 21 minutes on Saturday.

I'd also observe that, notwithstanding the media theme that the Caps are doing what they're doing w/o their stars, the fact is they've won 5 post-season playoff games, and got the GWGs in 3 of them on great displays of skill and savvy from Nicky, Semin, and Ovi.
ov had 21 minutes in game 1 because the caps were behind most of that game. he played an all time low in game 2 because the caps had the lead almost all of that game.

if the caps scored in their first shift, you might not see ovechkin except for power plays.

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05-01-2012, 01:07 PM
  #989
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It doesn't change the essence of the issue, but a couple of people have claimed that Ovechkin didn't play after his goal. The announcers also claimed that. It's absolutely not true. He played one of the first shifts (I think the second) after the PP and may have even gotten one more short shift later (I'm not checking).

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05-01-2012, 01:10 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by sonsofcain View Post
It doesn't change the essence of the issue, but a couple of people have claimed that Ovechkin didn't play after his goal. The announcers also claimed that. It's absolutely not true. He played one of the first shifts (I think the second) after the PP and may have even gotten one more short shift later (I'm not checking).
It wasn't like he was invisibile on that shift either. I don't know what people were looking at.

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05-01-2012, 01:11 PM
  #991
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Originally Posted by sonsofcain View Post
It doesn't change the essence of the issue, but a couple of people have claimed that Ovechkin didn't play after his goal. The announcers also claimed that. It's absolutely not true. He played one of the first shifts (I think the second) after the PP and may have even gotten one more short shift later (I'm not checking).
He played one 23-second shift that started about 1:10 after the goal. He didn't see the ice for the last 5:56 of the game.

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05-01-2012, 01:21 PM
  #992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post


And now, the real kicker, the defense:

Poti-Green
Morrissonn-Jurcina
Erskine-Pothier

Massive, massive advantage 2011-12.
upgrade yes, not massive

erskine is still there, wideman, schultz, hamrlik... really u cant call that massive - the real kicker is experience and team defense/trap, that allows you to have weaker individual players and still be successful although wideman tries his best to convince me otherwise

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05-01-2012, 01:45 PM
  #993
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
There's a huge error in that line of thinking--hitching the wagon to Ovechkin would have worked in the past if he had better support around him. Playoff monster Ovechkin in the offensive Caps era didn't have a bottom 6 or defense that was anywhere near as effective as there is now.
No no that was the system. Boudreau had them playing a system no team could ever win with no matter how talented they were top to bottom.

Morrisonn, Jurcina, 25 minutes a night Green, and 20 minutes a nights Schultz? System, system, system, system...

Right everyone? Right...?

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05-01-2012, 01:55 PM
  #994
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Boudreau's system was "go out there and work harder."

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Old
05-01-2012, 01:55 PM
  #995
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Originally Posted by Stewie G View Post
It wasn't like he was invisibile on that shift either. I don't know what people were looking at.
damn...what was i saying. so right. yea...just watching the game. he had a short shift after the goal and then after that......zip. does that somehow make a difference in the basic argument?

ok....i was wrong when i said he didnt play in the last 7 minutes of the game. it was the last 6 minutes of the game where he was benched. is that better?

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05-01-2012, 02:04 PM
  #996
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damn...what was i saying. so right. yea...just watching the game. he had a short shift after the goal and then after that......zip. does that somehow make a difference in the basic argument?

ok....i was wrong when i said he didnt play in the last 7 minutes of the game. it was the last 6 minutes of the game where he was benched. is that better?
I said it didn't change the essence of the issue. It's just worth noting that he wasn't completely affixed to the bench. What prompted me to post it was your suggestion that he might only see PP time if they had a lead for the whole game.

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05-01-2012, 02:16 PM
  #997
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Mike Knuble said to Yahoo of the situation: If were down a goal, [Ovechkin is] going to be our main guy. Hes going every other shift. If were up a goal, then Dale tends to lean on other guys. Thats the way it is. I guess they can talk about it this summer after the season and figure it out. But for now, its working, and were going to run with it.
I'm glad that they are sparing Ovechkin. We need what he brings scoring wise. I think that is the reason why he gets paid what he does? Not for his defense. Others get paid for that.

When he is burnt out with too much ice time it affects his effectiveness in scoring. He starts to float and cheat high. It is also proven, not just with OV, that decision making processing speed goes down.

Also, I think we have the chance to go far. The road to the cup is long and tough. Best to have OV fresh and not too bunged up. GMGM has also positioned us nicely with depth.

I'm sure OV will still be here next year. He is smart. He knows that this is all for one and one for all. He will feel really super being the first one to hoist the Cup and know that it was all worth it. If not this year then next.

I prefer this year and next year.

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05-01-2012, 02:21 PM
  #998
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we will see what happens next.

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Old
05-01-2012, 02:24 PM
  #999
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Its funny tx. Last year before the playoffs, you were so much in love with Boudreau's system. I remember you mocking people for worrying about Tampa Bay. You were down right cocky saying how we will handle them. I think it was you who said "this series will be over quick" after Fehr put us up that first game. Your mantra last year was, it doesn't matter how they play as long as they win.

So why are you so negative with Hunter and his system? Which seems to be working pretty well in the playoffs.

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05-01-2012, 02:33 PM
  #1000
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txpd is right, this is not going to work long term w/ovy

how funny would it be if dark dale wins the cup and chooses not to return

honestly, if they win a cup, i don't care if hunter is back, i don't care if ovy wants out, i don't care if wideman gets a 5 year deal.......ok, maybe i care about that last part.

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