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List of candidates for Assistant GM's and Coach Part VII

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05-01-2012, 01:50 PM
  #176
Andy
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Everyone thought he was goaltending depth. He was one of the best college FAs a year before that draft and had a great rookie season in Hamilton.
I don't care what everyone else thinks. If everyone thought Gomez was a good trade, would that make it a good trade?

Now I am being hard on McGuire on purpose here because everyone loves to bring up times he was right a players talent analysis etc etc. I really don't care what he thought in that particular incident. What I care about is if he is able to put all he says he would do in practice, whether he has shown any ounce of doing so at some point in recent years. Without relevant experience, I would hesitate on taking his word that he can.

The easiest thing an outsider can do is criticize. Much different when you are in the chair.

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05-01-2012, 01:51 PM
  #177
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The most important thing right for a GM is hockey related vision. What type of team does he want, how will he work to obtain it, what's his take on upcoming picks/prospects, reputation among his peer certainly is interesting as well. For the rest, he can hire specialist that will work with him throughout it all.
The most important thing for a GM is putting values on things: risk, rewards, rising and declining value of players, cap hits vs. production over time, and so on. And then deciding what's more valuable than what, weighing pros and cons, and making decisions in another way. Which is what you are saying, except expressed in another way. Those are eminently managerial functions.

Talent evaluations, IMO, is where the GM can surround himself well -- the GM should have his own eye for talent but also should gather information from various sources and those sources should include trusted advisors. But what he and no one else has to do is make the final value call. It doesn't have to be in numbers, but it is a value call. And education can certainly help there.

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05-01-2012, 01:51 PM
  #178
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So Hartley and Perron should be considered as head coaches them because they must have changed over the years?

The funny part is that I thought McGuire was a weird, egotistical, self-centered control freak before that 18 year old article surfaced. I was shocked to learn that it appears as though he hasn't changed at all.

Also, weren't you the one laughing in the Gauthier thread with the 13 year old article describing how he acted in
Anaheim?

Anyway that isn't even the thing that bothers me most about McGuire, it's the fact is that his hiatus from hockey the last 15 years does not help him in proving that he has any capacity to do any of the things he says he can do. Hence the leap of faith.
The article writting about Gauthier 10 years ago showed us that nothing has changed regarding him in the last 10+ years. As for McGuire we don't know so that's the difference when using those articles

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Has Pierre McGuire?
We will soon find out!

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05-01-2012, 01:52 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
He went to the ECHL after that. Probably couldn't make much of a living there, so he took a sports media job and became something.

Saying he doesn't want to work his way from a lesser job is kind of out there. Maybe he'd love to, but maybe it's a much better situation for his family. We don't know. That's why, you let the people interviewing choose, not make unfounded assumptions*.
He's not willing to leave his media position for an Assistant GM job, but only the GM position...what changes other than more responsibility and pay? This is a big red flag for me. Why doesn't he want to take lesser jobs to prove his capabilities? This is a legitmate question, one which I hope was asked and an area I hope was investigated thoroughly.

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05-01-2012, 01:53 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
The article writting about Gauthier 10 years ago showed us that nothing has changed regarding him in the last 10+ years. As for McGuire we don't know so that's the difference when using those articles
I thought the Mcguire of today was a self-centered, weird, egotistical control freak. That 18 year old article only confirmed my present concerns about his character. So I guess he hasn't changed either.

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05-01-2012, 01:54 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
He's not willing to leave his media position for an Assistant GM job, but only the GM position...what changes other than more responsibility and pay? This is a big red flag for me. Why doesn't he want to take lesser jobs to prove his capabilities? This is a legitmate question, one which I hope was asked and an area I hope was investigated thoroughly.
Why should he take a lesser job? Are you serious? Do you have a wife and kids? The guy wants stability, not yoyoing around 2-3 years in different cities over North America

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05-01-2012, 01:55 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I thought the Mcguire of today was a self-centered, weird, egotistical control freak. That 18 year old article only confirmed my present concerns about his character. So I guess he hasn't changed either.
Keep it up Andy. Listen if you don't like the guy that's one thing, but until hired by an NHL team we don't know what he could bring. As for Gauthier we knew what it was and it was nothing but crap but they hired him anyways

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05-01-2012, 01:56 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
He's not willing to leave his media position for an Assistant GM job, but only the GM position...what changes other than more responsibility and pay? This is a big red flag for me. Why doesn't he want to take lesser jobs to prove his capabilities? This is a legitmate question, one which I hope was asked and an area I hope was investigated thoroughly.
Especially since he's always saying that players and coaches need to go to junior and the AHL to "do their chores." He's always mentioning it when talking about Vigneault, for example, about how, despite the fact that he had been a junior head coach, an NHL assistant coach, and an NHL head coach, he had to go back to junior after Montreal to pay his dues. To do his chores to get back into the NHL.

Seems that rule doesn't apply to himself though.

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05-01-2012, 01:56 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
He's not willing to leave his media position for an Assistant GM job, but only the GM position...what changes other than more responsibility and pay? This is a big red flag for me. Why doesn't he want to take lesser jobs to prove his capabilities? This is a legitmate question, one which I hope was asked and an area I hope was investigated thoroughly.
Like I said, it might be something to do with his family. We don't know. How is that a red flag if you haven't the faintest clue why he isn't doing it?

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05-01-2012, 01:56 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Why should he take a lesser job? Are you serious? Do you have a wife and kids? The guy wants stability, not yoyoing around 2-3 years in different cities over North America
I bet that something all other assistant GMs, proscouts and amateur scouts have to deal with. You have to admire someone willing to put in the work to move up to a position one desires. This doesn't suggest to me that he's willing to put all that it takes to get to the top. He wants to take a lesser route to get there.

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05-01-2012, 01:57 PM
  #186
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Keep it up Andy. Listen if you don't like the guy that's one thing, but until hired by an NHL team we don't know what he could bring. As for Gauthier we knew what it was and it was nothing but crap but they hired him anyways
This still tells me very little of why McGuire should be GM.

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05-01-2012, 01:57 PM
  #187
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John Davidson, another media personality who made the transition in an NHL front office, but not as a GM, but President...THAT'S the kind of role I could see Pierre McGuire cutting his teeth in Montreal.
I actually posted this a while ago. Would love to see McGuire as President or VP Hockey Operations, and Bergevin as GM.

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05-01-2012, 01:58 PM
  #188
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I bet that something all other assistant GMs, proscouts and amateur scouts have to deal with. You have to admire someone willing to put in the work to move up to a position one desires. This doesn't suggest to me that he's willing to put all that it takes to get to the top. He wants to take a lesser route to get there.
and the guy who does everything to get there doesn't mean he will end up being a better GM see Pierre Gauthier the head scout of the Habs and previous GM of 2 NHL teams

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05-01-2012, 01:58 PM
  #189
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I don't really see the need for such a combative tone, frankly.
Because it's really quite obvious to me that it is relevant, so that it is question really surprised me. You're asking someone to make decisions that will impact millions of dollars in payroll and revenue. Yes, he has people above him and a lot of the money-making is elsewhere. That doesn't change the self-evident fact that his decisions will directly impact what the company spends its millions, and how much it makes (in playoff revenue if nothing else).

The GM role in sports has a great deal of mystique, but ultimately, it is an executive position, and one that is not that unlike any other. I think part of the reason teams have so many problems with it is that it's not filled as such.

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There is no evidence that education is really all that important for this position.
By making the argument the way you do, I think I could make the argument that any given thing is "not really all that important".

Education is probably not a deal-breaker. But irrelevant? Honestly, I think that's ridiculous.

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05-01-2012, 01:58 PM
  #190
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Like I said, it might be something to do with his family. We don't know. How is that a red flag if you haven't the faintest clue why he isn't doing it?
I don't. I even said I don't. It still is a red flag that should be investaged by the interviewers and should be investigated thoroughly like I said in the post you quoted.

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05-01-2012, 01:58 PM
  #191
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This still tells me very little of why McGuire should be GM.
And who is your pick for GM and what are the reasons?

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05-01-2012, 01:58 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I bet that something all other assistant GMs, proscouts and amateur scouts have to deal with. You have to admire someone willing to put in the work to move up to a position one desires. This doesn't suggest to me that he's willing to put all that it takes to get to the top. He wants to take a lesser route to get there.
He doesn't want to have to earn it Andy.

Pierre Gauthier, whether you hate him or not OR hate the results he had or not EARNED his way into the job. He had different jobs with both Anaheim and Ottawa for years before coming to Montreal.

McGuire is a smug goof...I'll be seriously upset if they hire him.

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I actually posted this a while ago. Would love to see McGuire as President or VP Hockey Operations, and Bergevin as GM.
I want McGuire nowhere near the organization. Tell me why he deserves this chance. What has he done besides spout off more opinions than anyone could ever imagine.

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05-01-2012, 01:59 PM
  #193
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and the guy who does everything to get there doesn't mean he will end up being a better GM see Pierre Gauthier the head scout of the Habs and previous GM of 2 NHL teams
And McGuire failed the first time he took that route just like Gauthier did. Instead of looking to gain more experience, he chose to take a side route to the top. Like I keep saying, all this means is that wanting McGuire is just blind-faith: Taking his word that he can do the job without having any tangible experience by which to judge whether he actually posseses that capacity.

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05-01-2012, 02:01 PM
  #194
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And McGuire failed the first time he took that route. Instead of looking to gain more experience, he chose to take a side route to the top.
He still has a solid resume before leaving coaching for doing what he is doing right now. The reasons we don't know, but it has to most probably do with family

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05-01-2012, 02:02 PM
  #195
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I don't care what everyone else thinks. If everyone thought Gomez was a good trade, would that make it a good trade?

Now I am being hard on McGuire on purpose here because everyone loves to bring up times he was right a players talent analysis etc etc. I really don't care what he thought in that particular incident. What I care about is if he is able to put all he says he would do in practice, whether he has shown any ounce of doing so at some point in recent years. Without relevant experience, I would hesitate on taking his word that he can.

The easiest thing an outsider can do is criticize. Much different when you are in the chair.
The guy still played 50 NHL games and is at least a decent #3. It's absurd to say that at the time he wasn't a decent prospect, much like most top college/Euro FAs.

If everyone thought the Gomez trade was good, it's probably because it wasn't half bad. That argument is idiotic.

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05-01-2012, 02:03 PM
  #196
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He doesn't want to have to earn it Andy.

Pierre Gauthier, whether you hate him or not OR hate the results he had or not EARNED his way into the job. He had different jobs with both Anaheim and Ottawa for years before coming to Montreal.

McGuire is a smug goof...I'll be seriously upset if they hire him.



I want McGuire nowhere near the organization. Tell me why he deserves this chance. What has he done besides spout off more opinions than anyone could ever imagine.
What have Brisebois and Bergevin done to "deserve" this shot? Some of you guys make me laugh. They're all in the same boat as we speak, no one really deserves it more than another. And the same way we as fans accepted that clown Gauthier as GM, we would have to accept Mcguire and give him a shot at being GM

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05-01-2012, 02:03 PM
  #197
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And who is your pick for GM and what are the reasons?
I don't know who my pick is. Like others I have chosen people who are currently working and have been working for successful organizations for quite some time. I think that is the most reasonable thing an owner/president can do.

Next, you guage what they claim they can do and see if they have actually demonstrated doing what they say they can do in their recent experiences. And you judge that capacity accordingly.

I think these are two very reasonable criteria to start with. McGuire fits under none of these. This is why I favor Bergevin, Fenton, Botterill, Benning, Nill. However, picking any of them is just a wild guess for me. I pick Fenton because I like what I see in Nashville, but I don't know how much of the team is his doing. I still find this method a lot more reasonable that choosing a guy who hasn't been in the nhl for the last 15 years and has no evidence of being capable of putting what he speaks into practice.

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05-01-2012, 02:06 PM
  #198
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I don't know. Like others I have chosen people who are currently working and have been working for successful organizations for quite some time. I think that is the most reasonable thing an owner/president can do.

Next, you guage what they claim they can do and see if they have actually demonstrated doing what they say they can do in their recent experiences. And you judge that capacity accordingly.

I think these are two very reasonable criteria to start with. McGuire fits under none of these.
and Bergevin fits the criteria because he was promoted last year to assistant of a hockey team that sucked for years drafted high and won a Cup. That's being really succesful quick let's hire him. That's why I say as of now and I don't mind Bergevin one bit, I like him but they're all in the same both, no one is running away with this

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05-01-2012, 02:07 PM
  #199
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and Bergevin fits the criteria because he was promoted last year to assistant of a hockey team that sucked for years drafted high and won a Cup. That's being really succesful quick let's hire him. That's why I say as of now and I don't mind Bergevin one bit, I like him but they're all in the same both, no one is running away with this
I never said anyone was running away with this. I said I don't think McGuire should be a candidate at this stage of the Montreal Canadiens. Let someone else experiment with him. He is a complete unknown. All are in a sense, but you can minimize risk.

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05-01-2012, 02:10 PM
  #200
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Education is probably not a deal-breaker. But irrelevant? Honestly, I think that's ridiculous.
And yet, we see an even divide between GMs with education and those without, and some of the most successful GMs having none. Yet you dismiss this vantage point as being absurd. Well, this conversation's pretty silly as a whole, with that point of view.

As far as being able to make an argument for any given thing being 'not really all that important': go for it. Instead of taking the unsubstantiated viewpoint here, go ahead. I've listed the current GMs and their level of education. There's no discernible difference in success between them. So go ahead and make an argument from that same premise.

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