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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

General Talk '12 — Canada (Part II)

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Old
05-10-2012, 06:00 AM
  #326
WarriorofTime
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
TSN is saying that Kris Russell has been added to the defence. He should be able to help generate offence from the back end.



You are right that the WCs have a larger sample size. That would make them better for conclusions if each country sent a team indicative of how good they are. Europeans send stronger teams to this tournament relative to their overall ability that North Americans, so it will always overstate European countries compared to USA and Canada.
So the tournament shouldn't mean anything because we North Americans say it shouldn't? Spoiled millionaires. The European NHLers don't mind coming over to play a few more games for their country. You see a guy like Chara out there playing all minutes for Slovakia. Gotta admire a guy like that just doing what he can for his country. He was in the SCF last year. I'm sure he'd like the time off. But he also knows Slovakia doesn't have the best players in the world and he'll make a big difference and it would mean a lot to the hockey fans in his country to win a game against the United States for instance. Canada has enough players that are eliminated to ice the best team but their players choose not to because they have determined "it doesn't count". Basically just saying "we don't like this tournament so we're going to make it meaningless."

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05-10-2012, 06:50 AM
  #327
roto
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
You are right that the WCs have a larger sample size. That would make them better for conclusions if each country sent a team indicative of how good they are. Europeans send stronger teams to this tournament relative to their overall ability that North Americans, so it will always overstate European countries compared to USA and Canada.
It seems you didn't understand what I wrote. Canada may have better looking team on paper if they can choose from all the best players, but games are not played on paper or on PS3. Canada may play better with its best players but same applies to other countries which have players in NHL. The difference is that Canada has way better replacement players.

Here are some facts about how many players each country has in NHL:

Regular season:
Canada 480
USA 219
Sweden 59
Czech 40
Russia 24
Finland 21
Slovakia 10
Switzerland 7

Now, let's assume that half of players get to playoffs. It means there are only three countries which can make a WHC team of NHL players. Canada has 240 players where to choose from. It really shouldn't be that difficult to make a proper team of those players. Cutting 50% off the NHL player pool hurts more countries which don't have good depth. Canada has 100 players who made at least 36 points and Finland, for example, has 8 players. I guess I don't need to explain which country suffers more from having only 50% NHL players available.

Canada can send a strong team to this tournament if it wants. In fact, having only 50%-70% NHL players available favours Canada in this tournament, because it has so large pool of players. If players are not interested in the tournament, then Hockey Canada can state that players must participate WHC if they want to get to olympics and are not playing in NHL playoffs. It makes it simple: if you want to represent Canada in olympics you need to represent your country also in WHC.


Last edited by roto: 05-10-2012 at 07:01 AM.
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05-10-2012, 08:41 AM
  #328
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Why didn't canada invite Shea Weber?

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05-10-2012, 09:07 AM
  #329
JackSlater
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Originally Posted by WJG View Post
Anyone know if Brian Campbell refused?

It would be crazy if he wasn't invited at all.
I would guess that they did invite him, because as you say it would be crazy not to. Never heard anything about it though.

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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
So the tournament shouldn't mean anything because we North Americans say it shouldn't? Spoiled millionaires. The European NHLers don't mind coming over to play a few more games for their country. You see a guy like Chara out there playing all minutes for Slovakia. Gotta admire a guy like that just doing what he can for his country. He was in the SCF last year. I'm sure he'd like the time off. But he also knows Slovakia doesn't have the best players in the world and he'll make a big difference and it would mean a lot to the hockey fans in his country to win a game against the United States for instance. Canada has enough players that are eliminated to ice the best team but their players choose not to because they have determined "it doesn't count". Basically just saying "we don't like this tournament so we're going to make it meaningless."
Where did I say any of that? Nice tangent though.

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Originally Posted by roto View Post
It seems you didn't understand what I wrote. Canada may have better looking team on paper if they can choose from all the best players, but games are not played on paper or on PS3. Canada may play better with its best players but same applies to other countries which have players in NHL. The difference is that Canada has way better replacement players.

Here are some facts about how many players each country has in NHL:

Regular season:
Canada 480
USA 219
Sweden 59
Czech 40
Russia 24
Finland 21
Slovakia 10
Switzerland 7

Now, let's assume that half of players get to playoffs. It means there are only three countries which can make a WHC team of NHL players. Canada has 240 players where to choose from. It really shouldn't be that difficult to make a proper team of those players. Cutting 50% off the NHL player pool hurts more countries which don't have good depth. Canada has 100 players who made at least 36 points and Finland, for example, has 8 players. I guess I don't need to explain which country suffers more from having only 50% NHL players available.

Canada can send a strong team to this tournament if it wants. In fact, having only 50%-70% NHL players available favours Canada in this tournament, because it has so large pool of players. If players are not interested in the tournament, then Hockey Canada can state that players must participate WHC if they want to get to olympics and are not playing in NHL playoffs. It makes it simple: if you want to represent Canada in olympics you need to represent your country also in WHC.
I'm well aware that Canada can send a strong team every year. In fact, Canada possibly sends the strongest team on average every year talent wise. That isn't the point. The point is that the tournament is poor for comparing countries because some countries send better teams relative to their ability than others. If this tournament was as big a deal in Canada as it is in Europe, you can bet that Stamkos, Crosby, Toews and Weber would be over there. Maybe Pietrangelo and Letang too. Likewise for USA Kessel and Kane would likely be there. I know that Canada has lots of elite replacements, but that does not change the fact that hardly any of the absolute best Canadian players go every year, while a country like Russia uses half of their Olympic team.

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05-10-2012, 09:15 AM
  #330
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Why didn't canada invite Shea Weber?
You know for a fact they did or did not?

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05-10-2012, 09:47 AM
  #331
mindfly
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You know for a fact they did or did not?
....

Ok then

Why isn't Weber on team canada? Injured? Declined? Canada doesn't want him on the team?

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05-10-2012, 09:52 AM
  #332
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I think the fact that Weber hasn't signed a contract yet affects it so probably they asked and he declined (would be bad time to get an injury)

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05-10-2012, 10:33 AM
  #333
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Dam wanted weber..

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05-10-2012, 12:28 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I'm well aware that Canada can send a strong team every year. In fact, Canada possibly sends the strongest team on average every year talent wise. That isn't the point. The point is that the tournament is poor for comparing countries because some countries send better teams relative to their ability than others. If this tournament was as big a deal in Canada as it is in Europe, you can bet that Stamkos, Crosby, Toews and Weber would be over there. Maybe Pietrangelo and Letang too. Likewise for USA Kessel and Kane would likely be there. I know that Canada has lots of elite replacements, but that does not change the fact that hardly any of the absolute best Canadian players go every year, while a country like Russia uses half of their Olympic team.
My point is not about who is playing for Canada but who COULD be playing for Canada. It's irrelevant what kind of excuses players or Canadian fans have. Hockey Canada knows what this tournament is used for and it could send an elite team there every year if it wanted. I have to say again that this is not some NHL 12 where players have some fixes talent rankings which are used to determine the outcome of the game. Yes, in NHL 12 Canada has very good numbers.

In real life Canada has so good replacements that it doesn't noticeably affect its performance. Of course you can replace Stamkos, Tavares, Staal and Getzlaf with Crosby, Toews, Thornton and Richards. Do you really think that makes a big difference?

How about Finland: we'd have to replace M Koivu, Filppula, O Jokinen and S Koivu with Immonen (KHL), Kapanen (KHL), Nokelainen and maybe some Kontiola. I guess you can see the difference in talent, but Finland could still compete with any country with those secondary centers. Canadians seem often to have some weird misunderstanding, that their talent level dramatically drops if they don't have some specific players in team. If Canada had as small depth as most hockey countries, Canadians would understand better that it's team sport and not some game played using hockey cards.

Edit. Btw, last year Finland beat Russia's "half-olympic-team" twice, and still Finland had only two good NHL players and a two defenders (Lepistö and Salmela) who hardly got any playing time in NHL. Those victories weren't any wonders because game is played on ice and not on paper.


Last edited by roto: 05-10-2012 at 12:47 PM.
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05-10-2012, 12:58 PM
  #335
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I love this tournament and wish more players, media and fans would take it more seriously every year. Having said that I have a message for our European friends trying to tell us about how we should view our team....

Europeans always use the same well our guys and the Russians come why don't your guys. The answer is simple a lot of guys do not want to go to Europe and play and then travel back across the Atlantic after the tournament is over. European players are most likely going back to Europe for the off season so they might as well play when they get back home. You just have to look at when the tournament was in Quebec city/Halifax at the turnout Canada would get when the tournament is at home. I am not using this as an excuse I am just stating the obvious. Does it bother a lot of Canadian hockey fans? it sure does.

The only way Hockey Canada will get top players to go every single year is to institute a rule stating that " If you are healthy at the end of your season and you refuse the call for the World Championships then you are also taking yourself out of Olympic consideration"
The truth hurts but that would be the only way Canada would get their top guys every year. Personally I don't have a problem with how Hockey Canada picks the team, they do their best to get guys to go and they treat them like gold when they do put on the Maple Leaf. Everyone forgets that before the 2011 worlds we had won medals in all non Olympic years since 2003.

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05-10-2012, 01:40 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Camshaft77 View Post
The only way Hockey Canada will get top players to go every single year is to institute a rule stating that " If you are healthy at the end of your season and you refuse the call for the World Championships then you are also taking yourself out of Olympic consideration"
There's no way they'd ever do that. It's bad enough we have to make do with what we can get at the world championships. Now you want to risk doing the same at the Olympics by threatening pros It's a free country. The NHL season is hellishly long. I admire the players who risk injury by going overseas to play for nothing but national pride. But I also don't blame them if they don't go.

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05-10-2012, 01:40 PM
  #337
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Well, now that the Blues are out will they invite a guy like Russell perhaps? What possibilities are out there?
Looks like it came true

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05-10-2012, 01:42 PM
  #338
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I dont get it why some people are complaining about the canadian roster, i mean come on. Team Canada is the best team on paper once again.

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05-10-2012, 01:45 PM
  #339
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There's no way they'd ever do that. It's bad enough we have to make do with what we can get at the world championships. Now you want to risk doing the same at the Olympics by threatening pros It's a free country. The NHL season is hellishly long. I admire the players who risk injury by going overseas to play for nothing but national pride. But I also don't blame them if they don't go.
I wish some of you would read a whole post before you go off the deep end. I said if you read down that I like the way Hockey Canada picks the team. I said that is the only way guys would go, I never said that is what Hockey Canada should do. Honestly read a whole post before you go off.

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05-10-2012, 01:52 PM
  #340
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Personally I don't have a problem with how Hockey Canada picks the team, they do their best to get guys to go and they treat them like gold when they do put on the Maple Leaf. Everyone forgets that before the 2011 worlds we had won medals in all non Olympic years since 2003.
Macman here. Now don't put words in my mouth.

I cheer for team Canada no matter who goes. I don't blame guys for not going, I just wish they would. My comments were directed at people who thinks guys should go no matter what, as I said in the post above, read a whole post, digest all the information then write a reply, you cheery picked a comment with no context.

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05-10-2012, 01:58 PM
  #341
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My point is not about who is playing for Canada but who COULD be playing for Canada. It's irrelevant what kind of excuses players or Canadian fans have. Hockey Canada knows what this tournament is used for and it could send an elite team there every year if it wanted. I have to say again that this is not some NHL 12 where players have some fixes talent rankings which are used to determine the outcome of the game. Yes, in NHL 12 Canada has very good numbers.
Canada does send an elite team basically every year, at least compared to the other countries in the tournament. I am aware that the players are not coming with built in ratings, and that isn't the point. Canada comes with players who are clearly superior to a country like say... Belarus. Even if Belarus wins against them this year, I know that Canada has a better team, and is a better hockey country. The results of one game are not going to magically change this.

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In real life Canada has so good replacements that it doesn't noticeably affect its performance. Of course you can replace Stamkos, Tavares, Staal and Getzlaf with Crosby, Toews, Thornton and Richards. Do you really think that makes a big difference?
Massive speculation on your part. Of course the performance is affected. Are you really saying that a team with Crosby, Toews, Giroux, Stamkos, Spezza, Weber, Letang, Pietrangelo on it (all players who are eligible) wouldn't be better than the current Canadian team? Obviously it would.

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How about Finland: we'd have to replace M Koivu, Filppula, O Jokinen and S Koivu with Immonen (KHL), Kapanen (KHL), Nokelainen and maybe some Kontiola. I guess you can see the difference in talent, but Finland could still compete with any country with those secondary centers. Canadians seem often to have some weird misunderstanding, that their talent level dramatically drops if they don't have some specific players in team. If Canada had as small depth as most hockey countries, Canadians would understand better that it's team sport and not some game played using hockey cards.
No one is saying that Canada can't compete with any country just because the absolute best players aren't there. They are obviously a gold medal contender. The point is that the vast majority of Canada's best players aren't there, so comparisons of national teams are weak at best. Now if everyone missed the same proportion things would be different, but that is basically never the case. Look at USA, they always send putrid rosters, to the point that there is not any point to using their World Championship results for comparison.

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Edit. Btw, last year Finland beat Russia's "half-olympic-team" twice, and still Finland had only two good NHL players and a two defenders (Lepistö and Salmela) who hardly got any playing time in NHL. Those victories weren't any wonders because game is played on ice and not on paper.
I don't know if they were wonders, but they were flukes. Flukes are going to happen in such a small sample size. This has nothing to do with what I am saying though. I am not saying that Canada can't win because the best players are out. I do not understand why European posters seem unable to fathom this. I am saying that Canada (and USA) send teams less indicative of their ability than European countries in the vast majority of cases, making comparisons using the results of this tournament essentially meaningless.


Last edited by JackSlater: 05-10-2012 at 04:43 PM.
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05-10-2012, 02:12 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Camshaft77 View Post
I wish some of you would read a whole post before you go off the deep end. I said if you read down that I like the way Hockey Canada picks the team. I said that is the only way guys would go, I never said that is what Hockey Canada should do. Honestly read a whole post before you go off.
I did read your entire post and I hardly went off the deep end. You suggested that threatening players is the only way to get full participation at the worlds. I gave my reasons for why I think that would be a bad idea. I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

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05-10-2012, 02:21 PM
  #343
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hit the wrong key


Last edited by Camshaft77: 05-10-2012 at 02:35 PM. Reason: didn't finish the post
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05-10-2012, 02:34 PM
  #344
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I did read your entire post and I hardly went off the deep end. You suggested that threatening players is the only way to get full participation at the worlds. I gave my reasons for why I think that would be a bad idea. I'm not sure what you're complaining about.
Well you certainly painted my comments with a brush they should not have been and you certainly did not provide any insight with your comments other than to incite a response like the one you got. You are right we live in a free country ( no **** ), you are right the season is long ( no **** ). Hockey Canada would never do that and I believe the tone I used conveyed that would never be an option.

I also respect the hell out of the guys who go and I am usually very happy with our rosters. I think you and I think similarly about the situation and I will chalk this up to a misunderstanding and an inability to convey tone over a keyboard.

With that said big game against the Finns tomorrow for first place. Go Canada Go

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05-10-2012, 02:38 PM
  #345
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I think a big reason European players participate in the WC more than North American players is simply because the tournament is held closer to where they spend the off-season.

IMO, the best team Canada has ever iced at the WC is the 2008 team, when the WC was held in Quebec City and Halifax.

F Jonathan Toews
F Jason Spezza
F Patrick Sharp
F Derek Roy
F Eric Staal
F Ryan Getzlaf
F Shane Doan
F Dany Heatley
F Rick Nash
F Martin St. Louis

D Duncan Keith
D Brent Burns
D Jay Bouwmeester
D Mike Green
D Mark Giordano
D Dan Hamhuis
D Ed Jovanovski

G Cam Ward

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05-10-2012, 02:54 PM
  #346
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I think a big reason European players participate in the WC more than North American players is simply because the tournament is held closer to where they spend the off-season.

IMO, the best team Canada has ever iced at the WC is the 2008 team, when the WC was held in Quebec City and Halifax.

F Jonathan Toews
F Jason Spezza
F Patrick Sharp
F Derek Roy
F Eric Staal
F Ryan Getzlaf
F Shane Doan
F Dany Heatley
F Rick Nash
F Martin St. Louis

D Duncan Keith
D Brent Burns
D Jay Bouwmeester
D Mike Green
D Mark Giordano
D Dan Hamhuis
D Ed Jovanovski

G Cam Ward
Not to derail this thread, but that year featured what I consider the best U.S. team as well.


Last edited by Rabid Ranger: 05-10-2012 at 05:21 PM.
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05-10-2012, 04:31 PM
  #347
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I don't know if they were wonders, but they were flukes. Flukes are going to happen in such a small sample size.
This (concerning Finland beating Russia two times last spring) actually revealed how little you've watched international hockey. I see no point in discussing with you about these international tournaments anymore.

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05-10-2012, 04:42 PM
  #348
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This (concerning Finland beating Russia two times last spring) actually revealed how little you've watched international hockey. I see no point in discussing with you about these international tournaments anymore.
I would stop if I was you too. I know a Finn would be reluctant to admit this, but it was a fluke that they won with that roster. They played a good tournament (and Russia was actually kind of weak last year) but if the tournament was decided by something like a 7 game series for every round, there is no chance that Finland would have won. Hot streaks will happen in such a small sample size. A whopping TWO wins against Russia in last year's tournament certainly does not prove that Finland was not very lucky to win that tournament. Two games mean nothing really, which also happens to be why international tournaments don't prove a whole lot even at the best on best level.

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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
Not to derail this threat, but that year featured what I consider the best U.S. team as well.
Yep, that was a solid roster. The quality of this tournament really would be better if it was held in North America (Canada more realistically) every few years. Judging from the attendance this year, the IIHF wouldn't really lose any money either.

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05-10-2012, 04:48 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I would stop if I was you too. I know a Finn would be reluctant to admit this, but it was a fluke that they won with that roster. They played a good tournament (and Russia was actually kind of weak last year) but if the tournament was decided by something like a 7 game series for every round, there is no chance that Finland would have won. Hot streaks will happen in such a small sample size. A whopping TWO wins against Russia in last year's tournament certainly does not prove that Finland was not very lucky to win that tournament. Two games mean nothing really, which also happens to be why international tournaments don't prove a whole lot even at the best on best level.
I wouldn't call it a fluke. The first game was very even, and could have ended both ways, ending in SO for Finland. In the second game Finland was clearly better as a team for most of the game, and completely shut down the Russian stars. It proves that Finland was the better team in that tournament.

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05-10-2012, 04:55 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
They played a good tournament (and Russia was actually kind of weak last year) but if the tournament was decided by something like a 7 game series for every round, there is no chance that Finland would have won.
A 7-game series still doesn't mean that the team which looks better on paper will win 100% of the time. Upsets happen in the Stanley Cup playoffs, too.

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