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Niemi + ??? for Nash?

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Old
05-02-2012, 09:14 PM
  #76
murdock1116
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Originally Posted by SJSharkz View Post
I think we need a new identity but that won't happen.
I think a new identity would require us trading the likes of Boyle, Thornton, Clowe, etc.

Just won't happen

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05-02-2012, 09:16 PM
  #77
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Huh??? The only fast players they have on there team are Dustin Brown, Kopitar and Richards. Their system makes them seem faster than they are.

This is a team with Dustin Penner, Willie Mitchell, Matt Greene, Jeff Carter, Jarret Stoll and Rob Scuderi that you are calling fast??
You vastly underestimate the speed of the individuals on the Kings. Calling Jeff Carter and Jarret Stoll slow is ridiculous.

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05-02-2012, 09:18 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
I think a new identity would require us trading the likes of Boyle, Thornton, Clowe, etc.

Just won't happen
Sadly its true

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05-02-2012, 09:42 PM
  #79
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You vastly underestimate the speed of the individuals on the Kings. Calling Jeff Carter and Jarret Stoll slow is ridiculous.
You are over estimating. Carter plays exactly like Dany Heatley. Big guy who scores a lot of garbage goals and has a good shot

Stoll just isn't that fast, he's of the couture/Pavelski speed type

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05-03-2012, 12:42 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
You are over estimating. Carter plays exactly like Dany Heatley. Big guy who scores a lot of garbage goals and has a good shot

Stoll just isn't that fast, he's of the couture/Pavelski speed type
Carter may play like Heatley but he is much, much quicker than him both in terms of first steps and top speed. Stoll is also quicker in both regards compared to Couture and Pavelski.

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05-03-2012, 01:48 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Carter may play like Heatley but he is much, much quicker than him both in terms of first steps and top speed. Stoll is also quicker in both regards compared to Couture and Pavelski.
Your perception of them being quicker has to do with the system LA plays vs. SJ's system. If Heatley was on LA and Carter on the Sharks, you would be arguing Heatley being quicker. Same with stoll/pavs

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05-03-2012, 08:18 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
Your perception of them being quicker has to do with the system LA plays vs. SJ's system. If Heatley was on LA and Carter on the Sharks, you would be arguing Heatley being quicker. Same with stoll/pavs
Well, thank you for insulting my intelligence because there's just no way that I couldn't differentiate playing quick with decision-making and actual skating ability. The reality is that Carter is quicker and a faster skater than Heatley...period. Same with Stoll compared to Pavs and Couture.

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05-03-2012, 10:26 AM
  #83
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Niemi + Pavelski = Nash

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05-03-2012, 10:30 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by apparitionSHELL View Post
Niemi + Pavelski = Nash
Except that makes us a worse team since Pavelski by himself is worth quite a bit more than Nash, and adding Niemi doesn't help.

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05-03-2012, 10:53 AM
  #85
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Except that makes us a worse team since Pavelski by himself is worth quite a bit more than Nash, and adding Niemi doesn't help.

Hahaha...Wifey would not approve of this (Big Pavs Fan), but NHL 12 approved.

...curious to see how he would perform during the playoffs. Pavs often goes berserker in the Spring...just not this yr. Big things to come this summer, maybe even 'Tater-Tot Nash.'

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05-03-2012, 10:59 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by apparitionSHELL View Post
Hahaha...Wifey would not approve of this (Big Pavs Fan), but NHL 12 approved.

...curious to see how he would perform during the playoffs. Pavs often goes berserker in the Spring...just not this yr. Big things to come this summer, maybe even 'Tater-Tot Nash.'
I seriously have no idea what any of that meant...

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05-03-2012, 11:01 AM
  #87
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I think he wants Nash to see what he'd do in the playoffs...

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05-03-2012, 11:16 AM
  #88
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I think he wants Nash to see what he'd do in the playoffs...



Winner

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05-03-2012, 11:36 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Well, thank you for insulting my intelligence because there's just no way that I couldn't differentiate playing quick with decision-making and actual skating ability. The reality is that Carter is quicker and a faster skater than Heatley...period. Same with Stoll compared to Pavs and Couture.
Must you take everything so personally?

Carter isn't a fast skater in the absolute sense, but for his size he is quite fast. Not even close to as fast as Heatley was in Heatley's prime, but Heatley post-Atlanta? Definitely.

And, it isn't just speed; its skating ability. The ability to twist, turn, use your edges, etc. LA has that over the Sharks.

LA also seems to have better legs. They don't get tired as quickly (ever second matters). They are hitting the Blues hard and can maintain that physicality. Even accounting for stylistic/coaching differences, Clowe is the only SJ forward who can play a physical game, and he is woefully inconsistent with it.

Mike Richards is also showing his value this series. He can beat you multiple ways; it is very tough to shut him down.

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05-03-2012, 11:50 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
Huh??? The only fast players they have on there team are Dustin Brown, Kopitar and Richards. Their system makes them seem faster than they are.

This is a team with Dustin Penner, Willie Mitchell, Matt Greene, Jeff Carter, Jarret Stoll and Rob Scuderi that you are calling fast??
Richards isn't fast that was his knock coming out of junior. The Kings have much more speed and skating ability up and down the forward group than the Sharks. D-corps are pretty even but its not even close with the forwards. Jeff Carter participated in the fastest skater competition...so I'm guessing he's fast. Hes like Marleau, he moves pretty effortlessly and gets the lazy rap.

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05-03-2012, 12:13 PM
  #91
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Winner
That's not going to happen until after he gets traded from Columbus, so what was the point?

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05-03-2012, 12:51 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
Do you guys ever worry about us trying to "fix" our speed issues. Will adding two fast wingers really "fix" our team speed? I'm not so sure. Thornton, Clowe, Pavelski, Couture, etc don't play a "speed" game.

I feel like if we try to play copycat we're going to get worse. We did when we tried to "fix" our speed by getting Burns and Havlat. But then we ended up a not so fast not so big team. Doesn't seem like we'll ever be a "fast" team with our core.

However, fast teams lose when the get hit/beat up. To me it seems like we might be better off getting tougher and more physical, wearing teams down so that our possession/cycle game improves. If we can bang bodies more I think we'll improve more than just adding speed.
Cup winners have a minimum of three fast in their top 6, some have 4 or 5. Not necessarily fast teams (Boston and Detroit weren't fast as a team). At best, the Sharks had 2. When I say fast, the bottom line is about Seto fast to call a player fast. JT is not fast as he slows play and he is not quick enough on first step.

The Sharks have been beat by coaches who play systems that emphasize the Sharks lack of speed. They play against the Sharks' exit or entry plays.

WS mentioned what he thought was lack of effort or commitment. IMO, it is more strategy and skills that make it look that way. They look decidedly listless when they come up against a team that plays against the Sharks weaknesses.

Another part of this is where to correct those weaknesses. You can use the Detroit mode to beat your own lack of speed. That is passing accuracy and decisions (as well as a few pick plays). The way you get there is intense practice on those issues. Breakouts, entries, in-zone play. Emphasize passing and decisions in practice, not battle readiness or board play. At least 3 of those teams that have done well have used incredible practice sessions throughout a season to improve their odds. Not one hour, one and a half hours with a lot of hard skating. If you look back you can figure at least 3 teams yourself. How well would hard skating practices fly with the current group of SJ players?

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05-03-2012, 02:37 PM
  #93
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Cup winners have a minimum of three fast in their top 6, some have 4 or 5. Not necessarily fast teams (Boston and Detroit weren't fast as a team). At best, the Sharks had 2. When I say fast, the bottom line is about Seto fast to call a player fast. JT is not fast as he slows play and he is not quick enough on first step.

The Sharks have been beat by coaches who play systems that emphasize the Sharks lack of speed. They play against the Sharks' exit or entry plays.

WS mentioned what he thought was lack of effort or commitment. IMO, it is more strategy and skills that make it look that way. They look decidedly listless when they come up against a team that plays against the Sharks weaknesses.

Another part of this is where to correct those weaknesses. You can use the Detroit mode to beat your own lack of speed. That is passing accuracy and decisions (as well as a few pick plays). The way you get there is intense practice on those issues. Breakouts, entries, in-zone play. Emphasize passing and decisions in practice, not battle readiness or board play. At least 3 of those teams that have done well have used incredible practice sessions throughout a season to improve their odds. Not one hour, one and a half hours with a lot of hard skating. If you look back you can figure at least 3 teams yourself. How well would hard skating practices fly with the current group of SJ players?
well they got used to a lot of optional skate days that i doubt even half the team would show up to.

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05-03-2012, 02:53 PM
  #94
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well they got used to a lot of optional skate days that i doubt even half the team would show up to.
I wouldn't be surprised if the large amount of optional this year played into the result.

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05-03-2012, 03:08 PM
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I wouldn't be surprised if the large amount of optional this year played into the result.
And what should they have done when a lot of players are banged up and you've been dealt a schedule from hell?

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05-03-2012, 03:25 PM
  #96
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And what should they have done when a lot of players are banged up and you've been dealt a schedule from hell?
It's a yin/yang thing. Sorry didn't say that earlier. Vet teams, like the Sharks, don't tend to have intense practices anyway. It does tend to be younger teams. In conjunction with the sched and number of vets, you probably have your answer as to TM's reasons. But there is a balance and there is the balance on the items addressed in practice. They were spending a lot of time on PK in practice as was. The way to get around intense practice with vet teams is to go the low turnover route.

When TM kept talking about polish and execution, it was a big hint. They are professionals and they don't go out there and neglect to put forth effort on a repeated basis. Almost every one of them lives to play hockey. The way they go about it may be another story and there are 23 (or whatever the roster size is) histories of what it means that are involved. The polish/execution issue says that they were falling far short on the repetitions needed to reach the level that TM wanted.

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05-03-2012, 03:34 PM
  #97
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It's a yin/yang thing. Sorry didn't say that earlier. Vet teams, like the Sharks, don't tend to have intense practices anyway. It does tend to be younger teams. In conjunction with the sched and number of vets, you probably have your answer as to TM's reasons. But there is a balance and there is the balance on the items addressed in practice. They were spending a lot of time on PK in practice as was. The way to get around intense practice with vet teams is to go the low turnover route.

When TM kept talking about polish and execution, it was a big hint. They are professionals and they don't go out there and neglect to put forth effort on a repeated basis. Almost every one of them lives to play hockey. The way they go about it may be another story and there are 23 (or whatever the roster size is) histories of what it means that are involved. The polish/execution issue says that they were falling far short on the repetitions needed to reach the level that TM wanted.
I also believe that an "optional skate" is not entirely true or accurate. Part of it is to hide injuries gearing up for the PO's. If a young player, for example, is viewed as healthy and doesn't show up for an optional practice, I don't suspect it's looked upon too well by the other players or staff, especially if it's a habit.

An older vet taking a day off? Well, that's part of the camouflage for the real injuries

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05-03-2012, 03:38 PM
  #98
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if DW gives another 1st round pick again, we're going to be a unhappy bunch.

hope DW can find a new staff first before getting players we don't need.

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05-03-2012, 03:40 PM
  #99
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It's a yin/yang thing. Sorry didn't say that earlier. Vet teams, like the Sharks, don't tend to have intense practices anyway. It does tend to be younger teams. In conjunction with the sched and number of vets, you probably have your answer as to TM's reasons. But there is a balance and there is the balance on the items addressed in practice. They were spending a lot of time on PK in practice as was. The way to get around intense practice with vet teams is to go the low turnover route.

When TM kept talking about polish and execution, it was a big hint. They are professionals and they don't go out there and neglect to put forth effort on a repeated basis. Almost every one of them lives to play hockey. The way they go about it may be another story and there are 23 (or whatever the roster size is) histories of what it means that are involved. The polish/execution issue says that they were falling far short on the repetitions needed to reach the level that TM wanted.
the few games after we would practice PKs (i think it happened twice in the season and once in the playoffs) were when we killed at the best rates i think. probably not a coincedence, but very telling as far as how well they were executing. and the PK in game 1 against the blues was a stark difference from what we seen the rest of the round 1 series. it was a strange thing.

our average age is somewhere around 28. not young persay, but the only time the lack of practice made sense was in february because there really wasnt much choice. lack of practice could also have something to do with the niggling injuries that would probably pop up..like muscle strains/spasms and general lack of conditioning as well.

TMacs system seems to not give much room for energetic fast paced play. it seems a more strategic way of going about things. (control for the 60 minutes and let probability take care of the rest vs. strong pushes for goals and taking leads early) which is understandable given the lack of any kind of transition offense or the legs to even accomplish it. so instead we would have to deal with the defensive side and retain the puck to setup for an offensive push to sustain zone time. (strategic line changes, stretch passing, etc) which allows the other team to get behind the puck. this is just my eyes observing, but i think with a proper transition offense included in the system wed be in the top 3 possession teams, without it we are just in the top 10.

the season as a whole was strange.

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05-03-2012, 03:49 PM
  #100
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I also believe that an "optional skate" is not entirely true or accurate. Part of it is to hide injuries gearing up for the PO's. If a young player, for example, is viewed as healthy and doesn't show up for an optional practice, I don't suspect it's looked upon too well by the other players or staff, especially if it's a habit.

An older vet taking a day off? Well, that's part of the camouflage for the real injuries
From what I saw in play and heard about practices, there appeared to be a definite lack of intensity and organization on breakouts. Hesitance. More strategy on entry plays rather than hesitance. Back in the Briere/Drury days, Buffalo had breakout strategies coming out their backside and Ruff could swap strategies during games. Practices were intense and heavy on skating and it took an undermanned/underskilled roster a long way in the playoffs (that era of Buffalo was one of my examples).

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