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Niemi + ??? for Nash?

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Old
05-03-2012, 04:56 PM
  #101
Led Zappa
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
From what I saw in play and heard about practices, there appeared to be a definite lack of intensity and organization on breakouts. Hesitance. More strategy on entry plays rather than hesitance. Back in the Briere/Drury days, Buffalo had breakout strategies coming out their backside and Ruff could swap strategies during games. Practices were intense and heavy on skating and it took an undermanned/underskilled roster a long way in the playoffs (that era of Buffalo was one of my examples).
Interesting.

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05-03-2012, 06:02 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
When I say fast, the bottom line is about Seto fast to call a player fast.
Isn't 4-6 a bit too much, or maybe the Seto standard is a bit too high? You already noted for Boston and Detroit, but I don't recall Pittsburgh or Chicago having a lot of "Seto" speed players. I don't remember their exact Top-6, but Crosby, Malkin, Kennedy, Dupuis, Fedetenko, etc aren't Seto fast. And from Chicago, I'd only put Kane and Hossa in the Seto fast category.
Vancouver was 1 game away from winning (and probably would've won if Hamhuis didn't injure himself), and the Sedins and Kesler aren't Seto fast either.

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05-03-2012, 07:17 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Isn't 4-6 a bit too much, or maybe the Seto standard is a bit too high? You already noted for Boston and Detroit, but I don't recall Pittsburgh or Chicago having a lot of "Seto" speed players. I don't remember their exact Top-6, but Crosby, Malkin, Kennedy, Dupuis, Fedetenko, etc aren't Seto fast. And from Chicago, I'd only put Kane and Hossa in the Seto fast category.
Vancouver was 1 game away from winning (and probably would've won if Hamhuis didn't injure himself), and the Sedins and Kesler aren't Seto fast either.
all of those players you mentioned are offensively sheltered. 60+ percent offensive zone starts. so they dont need a lot of top end speed. more quickness/stick handling type speed.

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05-03-2012, 08:34 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
all of those players you mentioned are offensively sheltered. 60+ percent offensive zone starts. so they dont need a lot of top end speed. more quickness/stick handling type speed.
That's what we may need to do with our system.

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05-03-2012, 11:54 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Isn't 4-6 a bit too much, or maybe the Seto standard is a bit too high? You already noted for Boston and Detroit, but I don't recall Pittsburgh or Chicago having a lot of "Seto" speed players. I don't remember their exact Top-6, but Crosby, Malkin, Kennedy, Dupuis, Fedetenko, etc aren't Seto fast. And from Chicago, I'd only put Kane and Hossa in the Seto fast category.
Vancouver was 1 game away from winning (and probably would've won if Hamhuis didn't injure himself), and the Sedins and Kesler aren't Seto fast either.
Chicago, Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa.

Pitt, Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz.

Detroit starts with Datsyuk, Franzen. Cleary is within the parameters while Flipper is flat out very fast.

Boston, Bergeron, Krejci. But Boston ran three lines and their tweeners like Peverley and Marchand were fast as well as their top 6 sub, Seguin.

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05-04-2012, 12:00 AM
  #106
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the trade mentioned in OP's post would only work if Marleau (hopefully) gets traded somewhere else first. That being said I'd rather have Nash who can and would score 80-90 points on Thornton's wing and possibly score more than ZERO points in the Playoffs than an aging lazy hasbeen that can score 70-75 when he feels like it.

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05-04-2012, 12:46 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Chicago, Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa.

Pitt, Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz.

Detroit starts with Datsyuk, Franzen. Cleary is within the parameters while Flipper is flat out very fast.

Boston, Bergeron, Krejci. But Boston ran three lines and their tweeners like Peverley and Marchand were fast as well as their top 6 sub, Seguin.
Toews, Datsyuk, Franzen, Crosby, and Malkin are not in the same category as Setoguchi.

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05-04-2012, 01:09 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Toews, Datsyuk, Franzen, Crosby, and Malkin are not in the same category as Setoguchi.
I am sorry but I firmly disagree. Only caveat is an injured Franzen hasn't been fast. Simple eye test is the ability to go wide and beat a turned defender by a stride. I have seen all of them do so.

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05-04-2012, 01:13 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Toews, Datsyuk, Franzen, Crosby, and Malkin are not in the same category as Setoguchi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I am sorry but I firmly disagree. Only caveat is an injured Franzen hasn't been fast. Simple eye test is the ability to go wide and beat a turned defender by a stride. I have seen all of them do so.
Crosby is fast, but not Seto fast, Franzen is 'quick' (and strong) but not fast. Datsyuk and Toews I agree with, but I still think Seto would beat either in a straight race.

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05-04-2012, 01:13 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Simple eye test is the ability to go wide and beat a turned defender by a stride. I have seen all of them do so.
I've seen Thornton do that too.

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05-04-2012, 01:36 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Crosby is fast, but not Seto fast, Franzen is 'quick' (and strong) but not fast. Datsyuk and Toews I agree with, but I still think Seto would beat either in a straight race.
Most of the time that we have seen Franzen play the Sharks lately, he has been injured and not fast. You have to go way back to get a clean series for him like the first time that we beat this incarnation of Detroit.

WT,
Really, lately on JT I haven't seen wide. It is also on a defender that is already turned, not someone turning. Lots of guys can go wide on a dman who doesn't turn soon enough, like the way Clowe beat Ehrhoff wide when he didn't turn.

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05-04-2012, 03:21 AM
  #112
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I'm not sure why everyone is saying that Nash is slow. He's fast and has pretty slick hands too. I'd love to have him on the the team but yeah he is quite pricey. Who are some good free agents we can go after this summer? Nevermind that question here's a list of UFA's: http://www.capgeek.com/free_agents.p...F&fa_type_id=2

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05-04-2012, 04:06 AM
  #113
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At this point, Winnik and Dom Moore are locks (Only because I'd rather have Dom over Zus any day of the week)

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05-04-2012, 10:34 AM
  #114
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I've seen Thornton do that too.
One time. During his first season here. That was a long time ago.

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05-04-2012, 11:24 AM
  #115
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they'd want a 'big name' coming back. it'd alienate the fanbase by trading the 'face of the franchise', but i could see DW doing this (he is after all 'playing' for his job this season, this is all in):

Niemi
Marleau
Demers/High draft pick

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05-04-2012, 11:27 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Cup winners have a minimum of three fast in their top 6, some have 4 or 5. Not necessarily fast teams (Boston and Detroit weren't fast as a team). At best, the Sharks had 2. When I say fast, the bottom line is about Seto fast to call a player fast. JT is not fast as he slows play and he is not quick enough on first step.

The Sharks have been beat by coaches who play systems that emphasize the Sharks lack of speed. They play against the Sharks' exit or entry plays.

WS mentioned what he thought was lack of effort or commitment. IMO, it is more strategy and skills that make it look that way. They look decidedly listless when they come up against a team that plays against the Sharks weaknesses.

Another part of this is where to correct those weaknesses. You can use the Detroit mode to beat your own lack of speed. That is passing accuracy and decisions (as well as a few pick plays). The way you get there is intense practice on those issues. Breakouts, entries, in-zone play. Emphasize passing and decisions in practice, not battle readiness or board play. At least 3 of those teams that have done well have used incredible practice sessions throughout a season to improve their odds. Not one hour, one and a half hours with a lot of hard skating. If you look back you can figure at least 3 teams yourself. How well would hard skating practices fly with the current group of SJ players?
I think we are both right in that I agree with your assessment about the lack of speed and exploitation on exits and entry. My point, not well explained prior, is the players lack tenacity in staying with the play. Its not so much effort. Its close to your description of commitment.

This is just an exit play example, but I can use similar examples on the PK in particular: I've been watching the players supporting the puck in the current system. Under the best scenario on an exit, a player on the wall wins the battle and exists to the forward at the faceoff circle. When they struggle with recovery and are outnumbered on the wall, the forward has to drop into the scrum and a defender in front of the net slides into the first options and the forward on the weak side high who was available for the second pass slides down and then we start our slow slog out of the zone if we can recover. The work is there, but the battles are lost still requiring more support and eliminating options.

Watching other elite teams, there is a higher level of commitment on puck recovery. The battle is more intense and more of an all-in commitment to win the play. Our guys more often than not try and hold the puck at the wall in their feet, upright with a hand on the glass and wait for another teammate to jump into the scrum.

There is effort but its insufficient. Part of the problem is the system (part of your point) but part is simply an inability to win the race to the puck (skills - another of your points). But part of it is tenacity.

When its a scrum on the wall and "will versus will," our guys too often stand up straight, put a hand on the glass and off their stick and try and kick the puck out, while other players get low, dig in with a wide stance, body our player to the glass and have two hands and a heavy stick. If you have to put a hand on the glass, your stick is useless. If your standing up straight, you don't have leverage. If we're outnumbered on the wall and have a hand off the stick, we lose that battle at least 80% of the time.

It takes balls to have your hands on the stick battling for the puck, waiting to be shoved face first into the glass. You need to come in at an angle to the glass and use your shoulder against the glass to protect your face and the puck. Couture and Thornton are the best at committing to that play and winning those battles out of our top players. Marleau, Havlatt and Clowe are probably the worst.

So what is it. Tenacity, skills, or system? Probably all of the above but tenacity will make the system work. We lack tenacity and players who are willing to get dirty. And we are a team that is easy to play against making fast teams even faster against us. (Sorry ..... that got WAY TOO LONG!)

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05-04-2012, 11:47 AM
  #117
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That's not going to happen until after he gets traded from Columbus, so what was the point?

What would he do for the opportunity to play meaningful hockey. It must suck to wake up for the first day of training and say,

"gee...I wonder how I can improve my golf game for next summer."

Just saying, maybe a different team would give him a huge boost of confidence, and a side of Nash, we've never seen might emerge. San Jose could give him that opportunity, and so...yea, why not go after that guy.

Ask yourself, if your job sucked, and the people you worked with sucked, how excited would you be to go to work? Where would you find your motivation? How would you know that you've reached your full potential? He's still got some legs and years left to play.

So again,

Niemi + Pavelski = Nash

That might be enough to free space for trade...if this is the same thread

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05-04-2012, 12:05 PM
  #118
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Ask yourself, if your job sucked, and the people you worked with sucked, how excited would you be to go to work? Where would you find your motivation? How would you know that you've reached your full potential? He's still got some legs and years left to play.
I understand what you are saying and kind of agree with you.

However, as a professional you have to give in your all irrespective of how bad your work environment is. Not saying that it does not affect you but you still have to give it all.

Moreover, as the captain it is Nash's job to lead by example. Make the people around you better. Just have to work with what you have at times.

I am 50/50 on having Nash. I do think it makes our team better. Even if we get him for Pavs, who is in my favorite 3 players of the current Sharks roster. However, it is a pretty terrible cap-hit for Nash.

It does seem to me that Nash is the kind of player who will do a lot better without the burden of leadership. He 'should' fit in well with the Sharks.

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05-04-2012, 12:44 PM
  #119
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I understand what you are saying and kind of agree with you.

However, as a professional you have to give in your all irrespective of how bad your work environment is. Not saying that it does not affect you but you still have to give it all.

Moreover, as the captain it is Nash's job to lead by example. Make the people around you better. Just have to work with what you have at times.
I agree 100%...but his own GM threw him under the bus at the deadline. He must feel as if nobody's got his back. Carter didn't even want to stay, and got out. Not that he's done much but look where he is now, *knock on wood*
He's the franchise player/capt. for Columbus but doesn't get the respect from his superiors. There's no one there to set that example.

Doesn't have to be Pavs, I'd trade Patty, even though he's my bday twin, for a parade in SJ that would be my sacrifice

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05-04-2012, 12:47 PM
  #120
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Just to play devil's advocate here.. Look at Shane Doan and the Yotes as an example of unwavering commitment and leading by example.

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05-04-2012, 01:11 PM
  #121
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The only trades you make for Nash that make sense are something involving:

Clowe + Niemi

Marleau straight swap

Anything involving Pavelski is absurd unless it's a package deal of some sort and their 1st is coming back too.

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05-04-2012, 02:14 PM
  #122
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So what is it. Tenacity, skills, or system? Probably all of the above but tenacity will make the system work. We lack tenacity and players who are willing to get dirty. And we are a team that is easy to play against making fast teams even faster against us. (Sorry ..... that got WAY TOO LONG!)
I agree with much of what you said Wine but especially the last paragraph. This team has talent, it has the will to win, it has experience, but the commitment to battle through adversity is what is missing.

If the Sharks, as a team, competed with the effort/tenacity that say the Flyers do then we would have something but as of right now we are to slow and to easy to play against.

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05-04-2012, 02:28 PM
  #123
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I agree with much of what you said Wine but especially the last paragraph. This team has talent, it has the will to win, it has experience, but the commitment to battle through adversity is what is missing.

If the Sharks, as a team, competed with the effort/tenacity that say the Flyers do then we would have something but as of right now we are to slow and to easy to play against.
Thank you for reading my book and not quoting the whole thing in your reply. I'll be signing copies at Boarders at Santana Row on Monday.

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05-04-2012, 03:05 PM
  #124
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Just to play devil's advocate here.. Look at Shane Doan and the Yotes as an example of unwavering commitment and leading by example.
That's a WHOLE team effort right there. Remember when even The Great One bailed on them. Everyone speculated that they were going to move back to WPG, but they believed in themselves, and quite frankly carried each other to 3 consecutive playoff appearances and a PacDiv banner for 2012. The Yotes are a mad dog team, and they are ravenous. I'm truly stoked for the Yotes to have made it this far. But it would take the likes of Doan and Wiz to lead that pack.

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05-04-2012, 03:20 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by apparitionSHELL View Post
That's a WHOLE team effort right there. Remember when even The Great One bailed on them. Everyone speculated that they were going to move back to WPG, but they believed in themselves, and quite frankly carried each other to 3 consecutive playoff appearances and a PacDiv banner for 2012. The Yotes are a mad dog team, and they are ravenous. I'm truly stoked for the Yotes to have made it this far. But it would take the likes of Doan and Wiz to lead that pack.
Sorry I am on my phone so I didn't make my point very well. I meant that Doan has stuck loyally by with his team through many many horrible years and he is now finally reaping the benefits. He has always just kept a positive attitude and went to work and handled his business. Super classy.

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