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Niemi + ??? for Nash?

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Old
05-04-2012, 02:49 PM
  #126
SJeasy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WineShark View Post

It takes balls to have your hands on the stick battling for the puck, waiting to be shoved face first into the glass. You need to come in at an angle to the glass and use your shoulder against the glass to protect your face and the puck. Couture and Thornton are the best at committing to that play and winning those battles out of our top players. Marleau, Havlatt and Clowe are probably the worst.

So what is it. Tenacity, skills, or system? Probably all of the above but tenacity will make the system work. We lack tenacity and players who are willing to get dirty. And we are a team that is easy to play against making fast teams even faster against us. (Sorry ..... that got WAY TOO LONG!)
(I truncated the quote)

There is a valid to counter to your observations of play and some generic arguments.

Part is that 82-game top 6 players get a slight premium in pay and also tend to have better total production. Taking risks on the boards is almost guaranteed to give an injury history, particularly smaller guys. Couture has had a couple of concussions and now shoulder and if I am not mistaken, all the result of board play. Patty had a problem in the season where his shoulder got worked over in a play like that in a Jackets game (recall Grier going nuts on the culprit). Both have taken production hits for taking risks and so has the team. There is a balance and there is a reason for using journeymen to take those risks (lower paid F1's). There is balance to taking the risks you suggest.

There are a few top end guys who do boards well. I'll take Pronger as an example. He reduces injury time by having a rep as the meanest guy on the boards in the league. An opponent is going to eat elbows and knees to win against him.

On the PK, they were told to maintain position. Digging in is a way of losing position. You can get the push off with a hand on the glass if you should lose the battle. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a coaching component to method.

I don't think puck recovery is the key for the Sharks. I think the Sharks do it exceptionally well. I think the difference with elite teams is the small number of transition chances the Sharks get and the inability to play a Detroit-style in-zone game (pick plays, zone movement, side boards cycle, dangling around the circles away from the boards). Detroit is the only team of which I am aware that can forego transition play and still put up significant offense. If a team is pure grind team, offense will suffer generically.


Last edited by SJeasy: 05-04-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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Old
05-04-2012, 04:06 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
Sorry I am on my phone so I didn't make my point very well. I meant that Doan has stuck loyally by with his team through many many horrible years and he is now finally reaping the benefits. He has always just kept a positive attitude and went to work and handled his business. Super classy.
And there is something to be said about how Marleau has stuck it out and been the ultimate teammate even when the team wasn't so good in some years or he was to blame for a lot of faults on the team. He's always shown a willingness to do whatever it takes for this team. He doesn't always succeed, there's no doubt, but I will always vehemently disagree with people that think he isn't trying or not trying hard enough or floating or whatever you want to call it.

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05-04-2012, 04:47 PM
  #128
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And there is something to be said about how Marleau has stuck it out and been the ultimate teammate even when the team wasn't so good in some years or he was to blame for a lot of faults on the team. He's always shown a willingness to do whatever it takes for this team. He doesn't always succeed, there's no doubt, but I will always vehemently disagree with people that think he isn't trying or not trying hard enough or floating or whatever you want to call it.
Marleau will never get the benefit of the doubt because the Sharks have been a good team for a long time yet have never won a cup. The Winnipeg/Phoenix franchise has never been very good. They just won a playoff series for the first time since 1987. So Doan stuck with the team that drafted him that sucked up until these past few years so hes regarded as a "true leader" blah blah. It isn't a slight on Doan, who is a good leader and good player but Marleau is essentially in the same boat except his team has been one of the top teams in the league since the lock out. Its no suprise that Doan was one of the first players to come to Patty's defense when J.R. went on his first rant.

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05-04-2012, 04:50 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
Marleau will never get the benefit of the doubt because the Sharks have been a good team for a long time yet have never won a cup. The Winnipeg/Phoenix franchise has never been very good. They just won a playoff series for the first time since 1987. So Doan stuck with the team that drafted him that sucked up until these past few years so hes regarded as a "true leader" blah blah. It isn't a slight on Doan, who is a good leader and good player but Marleau is essentially in the same boat except his team has been one of the top teams in the league since the lock out. Its no suprise that Doan was one of the first players to come to Patty's defense when J.R. went on his first rant.
It is difficult to stick it out when the team isn't so good. But in reality, Doan never had to take the heat that Marleau and Thornton have had to take due to team expectations and failures. They both had/have things they can run away from with their current organizations and I think it's a little harder to stay when the finger is getting pointed at you for the failures. The people who persevere through that generally get the short end of the stick when it comes to getting recognized for that.

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05-04-2012, 04:53 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
It is difficult to stick it out when the team isn't so good. But in reality, Doan never had to take the heat that Marleau and Thornton have had to take due to team expectations and failures. They both had/have things they can run away from with their current organizations and I think it's a little harder to stay when the finger is getting pointed at you for the failures. The people who persevere through that generally get the short end of the stick when it comes to getting recognized for that.
Exactly. Thornton and Marleau will continue to take a beating until they are gone or win a cup. Just how its going to be.

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05-04-2012, 05:07 PM
  #131
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imo Shane Doan cannot be compared to Patrick Marleau when speaking about will, effort, and determination. Marleau is no where near Doan in that regard.

since Big Joe has changed his game and upped his commitment/effort i dont believe many people have been complaining about him. The uneducated thats about it b/c he has improved his game and commitment.

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05-04-2012, 05:17 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by PondShark View Post
imo Shane Doan cannot be compared to Patrick Marleau when speaking about will, effort, and determination. Marleau is no where near Doan in that regard.

since Big Joe has changed his game and upped his commitment/effort i dont believe many people have been complaining about him. The uneducated thats about it b/c he has improved his game and commitment.
Yeah they can't be compared because Marleau is the superior player. Not every player is outwardly emotional like Doan. Marleau is notoriously calm that he gets the rap of uncaring or disinterested. I think Marleau is capable of more than what he sometimes gives but to expect him to turn into Doan or Brendan Morrow is not going to happen. He's never been that type of player. He's more like Trevor Linden in terms of leadership.

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05-04-2012, 05:23 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
Yeah they can't be compared because Marleau is the superior player. Not every player is outwardly emotional like Doan. Marleau is notoriously calm that he gets the rap of uncaring or disinterested. I think Marleau is capable of more than what he sometimes gives but to expect him to turn into Doan or Brendan Morrow is not going to happen. He's never been that type of player. He's more like Trevor Linden in terms of leadership.
compared to Doan, yes Marleau is the superior player... when he wants to be.

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05-04-2012, 05:25 PM
  #134
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compared to Doan, yes Marleau is the superior player... when he wants to be.
Which has been every season they have been pros.

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05-04-2012, 06:58 PM
  #135
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Me mentioning Doan was to compare him to Nash and his situation and how I respect Doan for being the ultimate professional. I had no intent to talk about Marleau but while we are here...

I would take Doan over Marleau in a heartbeat. Bias aside, objectively, absolutely.

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05-04-2012, 07:48 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
Me mentioning Doan was to compare him to Nash and his situation and how I respect Doan for being the ultimate professional. I had no intent to talk about Marleau but while we are here...

I would take Doan over Marleau in a heartbeat. Bias aside, objectively, absolutely.

What a line that would be...

Doan/Nash/Iginla...or Marleau

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05-07-2012, 04:13 PM
  #137
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Do you really think this team is better off without Nash? Give me a break guys. Give up Neimi, Clowe, and some picks for him.

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05-07-2012, 04:17 PM
  #138
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Do you really think this team is better off without Nash? Give me a break guys. Give up Neimi, Clowe, and some picks for him.
For crying out loud, unless those "some picks" are the Sharks 1sts for the next three years, no way in hell is Columbus going to give up Nash for Clowe and Niemi. Give me a break.

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05-07-2012, 04:22 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
For crying out loud, unless those "some picks" are the Sharks 1sts for the next three years, no way in hell is Columbus going to give up Nash for Clowe and Niemi. Give me a break.
It's a starting point to a deal. Where it would go from there, most-likley Pavelski/Couture.

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05-07-2012, 04:49 PM
  #140
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I posted this in another thread, but thought it might be worth putting here...

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Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
****FOR ALL YOU RICK NASH FANS****

I basically traded Pavelski, Clowe, and Murray for Nash.... then dealt Handzus to anybody for a late pick

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Kristian Huselius ($2.000m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.333m) / Dominic Moore ($1.250m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.900m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.750m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.800m) / Benn Ferriero ($0.675m)
James Sheppard ($0.750m) / Cameron MacIntyre ($0.625m)

DEFENSEMEN
Brent Burns ($5.760m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Nick Petrecki ($0.925m) /

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,997,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $302,833

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05-07-2012, 05:35 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by The Last Outlaw View Post
It's a starting point to a deal. Where it would go from there, most-likley Pavelski/Couture.
Do you think that the Sharks are better off with Nash as opposed to Clowe, Niemi, and either Pavelski or Couture? Because I sure as hell don't. Rick Nash is a great goal scorer when he wants to be but he's an average hockey player outside of that.

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05-07-2012, 05:43 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
For crying out loud, unless those "some picks" are the Sharks 1sts for the next three years, no way in hell is Columbus going to give up Nash for Clowe and Niemi. Give me a break.
i am not sure cbj have a lot of options with regards to nash. their gm talks a big game, but if they really want to off him and his bloated 8 mil contract, they pretty much have to deal with the sharks. the other 4 teams on his "ok" list either aren't interested, don't have space, or would rather just go for parise. expect another heater type situation imo if he does in fact get traded.

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05-07-2012, 05:43 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Do you think that the Sharks are better off with Nash as opposed to Clowe, Niemi, and either Pavelski or Couture? Because I sure as hell don't. Rick Nash is a great goal scorer when he wants to be but he's an average hockey player outside of that.
Pavelski is a pretty good goal scorer too, and a great hockey player outside of that.

Couture could easily put-up 40 goals next season (only his third season) and he's a third the price. Trading him for Nash would be beyond idiotic. It's literally the one thing that DW could do that would make it tough for me to even watch this team next season (until he's fired).

Nash is not work $8m a season, not even close, and anyone who overpays for him is making a GIGANTIC mistake. I stand by my previous proposal, take it or leave it, only way I'm interested at all. (Pavelski, Clowe, Niemi, Sexsmith for Nash + 1st).

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05-07-2012, 05:44 PM
  #144
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i am not sure cbj have a lot of options with regards to nash. their gm talks a big game, but if they really want to off him and his bloated 8 mil contract, they pretty much have to deal with the sharks. the other 4 teams on his "ok" list either aren't interested, don't have space, or would rather just go for parise. expect another heater type situation imo if he does in fact get traded.
He'll be traded. He wants out, they need to move on.

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05-07-2012, 06:44 PM
  #145
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It's a starting point to a deal. Where it would go from there, most-likley Pavelski/Couture.
Yeah, and one of those two would be the main piece you conveniently didn't mention. If we could trade Clowe and Niemi straight up, I'd do it. But I will not trade either Pavelski or Couture for Nash by themselves, so ergo, no Nash. I'm sick of seeing proposals for him that either Columbus would reject in a nano-second or cripples our future for years, not to mention our cap structure.

Quote:
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i am not sure cbj have a lot of options with regards to nash. their gm talks a big game, but if they really want to off him and his bloated 8 mil contract, they pretty much have to deal with the sharks. the other 4 teams on his "ok" list either aren't interested, don't have space, or would rather just go for parise. expect another heater type situation imo if he does in fact get traded.
They turned down Erixon, Dubinsky, Thomas, Miller, and a 1st. They have plenty of options.

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05-08-2012, 02:42 PM
  #146
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Yeah, and one of those two would be the main piece you conveniently didn't mention. If we could trade Clowe and Niemi straight up, I'd do it. But I will not trade either Pavelski or Couture for Nash by themselves, so ergo, no Nash. I'm sick of seeing proposals for him that either Columbus would reject in a nano-second or cripples our future for years, not to mention our cap structure.



They turned down Erixon, Dubinsky, Thomas, Miller, and a 1st. They have plenty of options.
I don't think anyone who wants Nash on the Sharks have ever said they would be willing to trade Pavelski or Couture to do it. 90% of people wanting Nash always preface by saying if we could get him for Clowe/Murray/Niemi + Demers/1st. Its worth it if we can make something like that happen.

Which by the way Trading Clowe + Murray + 2nd in NHL 2012 for Nash worked #justsaying

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05-08-2012, 03:21 PM
  #147
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I don't think anyone who wants Nash on the Sharks have ever said they would be willing to trade Pavelski or Couture to do it. 90% of people wanting Nash always preface by saying if we could get him for Clowe/Murray/Niemi + Demers/1st. Its worth it if we can make something like that happen.

Which by the way Trading Clowe + Murray + 2nd in NHL 2012 for Nash worked #justsaying
i dont care much for nash, but i'd be willing to part with pavelski, clowe, and murray as the exchange (post #140)

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05-08-2012, 03:24 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
I don't think anyone who wants Nash on the Sharks have ever said they would be willing to trade Pavelski or Couture to do it. 90% of people wanting Nash always preface by saying if we could get him for Clowe/Murray/Niemi + Demers/1st. Its worth it if we can make something like that happen.

Which by the way Trading Clowe + Murray + 2nd in NHL 2012 for Nash worked #justsaying
Here's some Phil10 for you:

If we don't give up Couture or Pavelski, we won't get Nash.
We aren't giving up Couture or Pavelski.
--------------------------------------------------
Therefore, we aren't getting Nash.



So there. End of thread.

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05-08-2012, 03:28 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Here's some Phil10 for you:

If we don't give up Couture or Pavelski, we won't get Nash.
We aren't giving up Couture or Pavelski.
--------------------------------------------------
Therefore, we aren't getting Nash.



So there. End of thread.
I agree with you, but that's what Armchair's are for, for discussions sake for the fun of it. None of us are Doug Wilson so none of our threads matter.

But that doesn't mean it isn't fun or interesting to talk about it.

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05-08-2012, 03:33 PM
  #150
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I agree with you, but that's what Armchair's are for, for discussions sake for the fun of it. None of us are Doug Wilson so none of our threads matter.

But that doesn't mean it isn't fun or interesting to talk about it.
It's just getting tedious to me. We've been discussing Nash for the past three or four months, and there's only so much you can discuss when it's obvious that neither side is going to meet.

It's probably because I'm not a fan of Nash, but I really wouldn't give up our first for him. We need young talent, even if it's nowhere near Nash's level.

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