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Please explain to me..........

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Old
06-27-2012, 11:26 AM
  #1
kahlon66
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Please explain to me..........

Please explain to me why we are drafting offensive dmen rather than defensive dmen or offensive wingers, it seems like we are trying to get offensive dman and getting grinder forwards.

It just doesn't make sense to me, please explain to me what the rational is in doing this? like Pouliet is a Letang type player, he is under 6 feet and he was our 8th pick overall, there will not be another Letang and it feels like a wasted pick................give me one draft pick that Shero has made that has done anything in the nhl other than Staal.

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06-27-2012, 11:29 AM
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I'm excited about Pouliot...I really am...but I think we will come to .regret not taking Grigs or Forsberg

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06-27-2012, 11:30 AM
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You don't draft for need. Simple as that. They do draft guys that are good fits for their system which is very uptempo and requires a lot of mobile, good passing D-Men that thrive in the transition game. That's what Pouliot supposedly does.

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06-27-2012, 11:31 AM
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Pick87your71Poison
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Value. Those players are always in demand and have great value in the market. Shero has done a great job getting extra value by trading these guys to teams desperate for that skillset. He has turned Whitney and Goligoski into Neal, Kunitz, Niskanen, and Tangradi which is incredible.

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06-27-2012, 11:33 AM
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kahlon66
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I know this board has a consensus In Shero we trust but if we look at it

He guessed wrong a few times such as signing Michalek and Martin rather Gonchar and Volchenkov, he didnt bother signing Scuderi and Gill.

His best free agent signing to this date is Matt Cooke, please just think about that, he is the longest signed free agent that Shero has brought in.

Who is his best drafted player other than Staal??

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06-27-2012, 11:36 AM
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kahlon66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
You don't draft for need. Simple as that. They do draft guys that are good fits for their system which is very uptempo and requires a lot of mobile, good passing D-Men that thrive in the transition game. That's what Pouliot supposedly does.
Captain hook, we have had 3 early exits from the playoffs, when you have the two best players in the world that should not happen, I feel like our system is hurting us, teams know how to beat her system and targeting players for this system is hurting us

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06-27-2012, 11:47 AM
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It's all about value... you gotta think - what did it take to acquire Neal?

We were able to trade away a promising young offensive d-man (Gogo) to the Stars.

Same thing for Kunitz, who continues to be a big part of our success. We were able to trade another offensive d-man (Whitney) in order to obtain him.

I don't know Shero's thought process, but I would think he believes these talented young offensive d-man are very valuable trading chips.

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06-27-2012, 11:47 AM
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You've gotta pick the guy you like best, but at the same time talk to me in a year when forsberg makes the Caps. That's what bothers me about it.

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06-27-2012, 11:53 AM
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kahlon66
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He has made some great trades, minor and major deals..........I dont think we have even lost a deal but his drafting and free agent pick ups have not done anything yet.

Lets give him this year to see how well we do if not, his and Disco Dan should be in the hot seat, we the fans and owners should see some positive results from a team like this

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06-27-2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahlon66 View Post
I know this board has a consensus In Shero we trust but if we look at it

He guessed wrong a few times such as signing Michalek and Martin rather Gonchar and Volchenkov, he didnt bother signing Scuderi and Gill.

His best free agent signing to this date is Matt Cooke, please just think about that, he is the longest signed free agent that Shero has brought in.

Who is his best drafted player other than Staal??
Gonchar isn't exactly looking like a world beater these days and what makes you so sure then Volchenkov would have fit the system better than Michalek or Martin?

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06-27-2012, 12:01 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick87your71Poison View Post
Value. Those players are always in demand and have great value in the market. Shero has done a great job getting extra value by trading these guys to teams desperate for that skillset. He has turned Whitney and Goligoski into Neal, Kunitz, Niskanen, and Tangradi which is incredible.
I see a lot of people saying that and kind o hate it. If the Pens are drafting players because of value in trades... its just flat out stupid.

The only way I can make sense out of going defense, defense, defense is that its such a taught position that when you draft skill on D the flaws are the easily correctable. Even if drafting a skilled defenseman doesn't pan out they're still going to be mobile and well positioned. With drafting a skilled forward you only have hopes that hs scoring will carry over. Scouting has come a long way and I don't think we'll see a case like Daigle again but lets take Teuvo Teravainen. Skilled, glitzy stats compaed to Pat Kane. How many guys have we seen control the puck like Pat Kane that are that small. Plus if you watch TT he's really weak on pucks. That flaw in Jokerit might not be a big deal but he'll get killed in the NHL.

Other than the 2009 draft I haven't had a problem with the Pens draft even though its clear they go for the BDA in the first round rather than BPA.

Fosberg was nice sitting there at #8 but I really wanted Girgensons. IMO he can move to wing and be a Dustin Brown type.

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06-27-2012, 12:01 PM
  #12
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Shero:

Turned Ryan Whitney into Chris Kunitz and Eric Tangradi
Turned Alex Goligoski into James Neal and Matt Niskanen
Turned Angelo Esposito, Colby Armstrong, Erik Christansen and the 29th pick (Daultan Leveille) into Marian Hossa and Pascal Dupuis
Turned a 2nd (Jimmy Hayes) and ultimately Chad Johnson into Hal Gill (who was part of winning a cup for us)

He has made a number of great trades that helped us become a better team in the past 6 years. He did that using assets that he acquired in the draft.

Thanks to Shero's drafting, we have probably the best pipeline of D talent in the league, and several promising forwards.

Bennett, Kuhnhackl, Pouliot, Morrow, Despres, Bortuzzo, Strait, Grant, Muzzin, Jeffrey, D'Agostino, Veilleux, Hanowski, Peterson, Velischek, Samuelsson are all players that he drafted that are progressing through our system and have a chance to develop into regular NHLers.

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06-27-2012, 12:02 PM
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Darth Vitale
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Several reasons, in no particular order:

1) Offensive / Skilled D prospects are highly valued commodities on the trade market. Defensive D prospects are not. IOW they're can't miss most of the time in the sense that there's a good chance they'll either make your team better within a couple years of being drafted, or they'll produce a valuable roster asset in a trade.

2) Because a good skating D can be taught a defensive game if they don't have the offense at higher levels. You can't teach someone the skills that Pouliot and Morrow have with the puck. This is the reason point 1 is true.

3) You're overlooking people. Dumoulin (Carolina trade) is definitely a defensive D and is NHL ready, maybe 1 season of AHL to learn our system. Clark Seymour is a banger (5th round).

4) Unless the player is an absolute monster or the team has a major deficiency, teams generally don't draft defensive D ahead of available stud offensive D. Recent example of this: Hedman in TB. Tampa needed a banger, Hedmen was a monster and ready for the NHL immediately.

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06-27-2012, 12:03 PM
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How many times have you seen drafted forwards who didn't pan out in someone's top six traded for other top six or top 4 defenders?

Case in point ... Luca Caputi ... traded for a tweener in Poni and since then traded for a top AHL'er to Anaheim. (Yes, I know his injuries had something to do with that.)

Angelo Esposito ... same thing.

Teams ALWAYS need defenders. It's numbers. Average team has 13 forwards in the NHL and seven defenders. It hurts a hell of a lot more to miss a defender rather than a forward.

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06-27-2012, 12:04 PM
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We can develop these young D and use them to fill the roster or use them as trading chips...the logic is right there for you. The draft isn't the only part of a GM's job so If he can trade a few of these young D prospects to bring in established offensive players or even pick up some young offensive prospects in trades I'll be fine because that's the type of player that commands the most return in trades. The early exits can be attributed to fleury's seemingly lack of confidence/stamina whatever it may be but you can throw that on his shoulders...shero picked up a solid goalie to pair with fleury hopefully allowing him to be more fresh in the playoffs. I think shero has done a wonderful job here.

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06-27-2012, 12:05 PM
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There was probably something about Forsberg & Grigorenko that GM's didn't want.

Penguins picked D Pouliot (who they liked all year, familiar with Joe Morrow and seems like a good fit. Also didn't think they wanted to take the chance to see if he was there at #22).

Lightning picked D Koekkoek, they have aging wingers in Malone and St. Louis, they have Connolly and Purcell, and could get wingers in the future, but they passed on both Grigorenko and Forsberg to pick Koekkoek.

Ducks passed on Forsberg, and with Ryan apparently wanting out and Selanna potentially retiring within the next season or 2. They picked D Hampus Lindholm.

Pens picked who they liked better.

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06-27-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnniewalker View Post
Shero:

Turned Ryan Whitney into Chris Kunitz and Eric Tangradi
Turned Alex Goligoski into James Neal and Matt Niskanen
Turned Angelo Esposito, Colby Armstrong, Erik Christansen and the 29th pick (Daultan Leveille) into Marian Hossa and Pascal Dupuis
While this is true, the counter to that is: would Shero even need to make these trades if we drafted and developed scoring wingers of our own?

In regards to the Pouliot/Forsberg thing, I've seen people mention that stockpiling these D prospects allows Shero to use them to trade for a top six winger. But if he'd picked Forsberg, wouldn't we hypothetically already have that top six winger we're inevitably going to trade for?

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06-27-2012, 12:34 PM
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Hans Rutherford
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
While this is true, the counter to that is: would Shero even need to make these trades if we drafted and developed scoring wingers of our own?

In regards to the Pouliot/Forsberg thing, I've seen people mention that stockpiling these D prospects allows Shero to use them to trade for a top six winger. But if he'd picked Forsberg, wouldn't we hypothetically already have that top six winger we're inevitably going to trade for?
It all depends on their potential and likelyhood of becoming NHL players. Had we drafted Ferraro to be our top six winger instead of Despres. Then we just lost a very significant asset right there that could help us land someone like Bobby Ryan right now (just saying). And Ferraro... who knows if he'll even play in the NHL as a third liner now.

Everyone questioned Shero's call on that pick back then, and it was absolutely the right one.

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06-27-2012, 12:35 PM
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I agree Shero has done a wonderful job with the trades.

What confuses me is stockpiling, and I mean stockpiling, these D-men. If the majority of them are just being added to use in trades later for wingers, why not just draft and develop the wingers?

I understand it is not as simple as that all the time, but sometimes it is. Especially when you have another pick at #22, and you pass on some high end prospects in Teravainen, Forsberg, Grigorenko, Girgensons (who can play wing).

I know D-men get injured but so do centers, and quite frequently in this organization.

Finally the 'system'. I keep reading Shero drafts guys that will transition into the system, but say DB gets fired after a couple more early round exits. Does the system get abandoned all together, or does it continue on even with a new coach? If that is the case than I guess it really doesn't matter who stands behind the bench and taps the guy on the shoulder for a line change.

Or does a new coach come in with a new system, one that places an emphasis on big guys that can keep the crease clear or pound teams into submission. Does that then screw all the prospects on the farm? Or is this just an organizational philosophy and any coach that comes in here must conform to it?

I am not a hockey expert like Shero, and I am just speculating of course, it is just very confusing to figure out who is in charge of the Pens and how these decisions get made.

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06-27-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
While this is true, the counter to that is: would Shero even need to make these trades if we drafted and developed scoring wingers of our own?

In regards to the Pouliot/Forsberg thing, I've seen people mention that stockpiling these D prospects allows Shero to use them to trade for a top six winger. But if he'd picked Forsberg, wouldn't we hypothetically already have that top six winger we're inevitably going to trade for?
Yes but that's if they pan out. I would say the organization has a strength of targeting and developing puck moving defensemen. They will go BPA, but that BPA is certainly influenced by their preference and developmental strengths. Once developed, these dmen have pretty significant trade value.

I can't say that I wasn't disappointed when we didn't draft Forsberg or Grigs, but I can't blame them for picking puck moving dmen. They are always a desired commodity.

I guess the questions for me boils down to this: Is our lack of young impact scoring forwards due to the organization not drafting enough forwards or is it due to a lack of organizational talent (scouting, coaching, etc) in finding and developing them? Or is it simply that there preference is to develop dmen because they see them as more valuable than wingers?

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06-27-2012, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC24 View Post
I agree Shero has done a wonderful job with the trades.

What confuses me is stockpiling, and I mean stockpiling, these D-men. If the majority of them are just being added to use in trades later for wingers, why not just draft and develop the wingers?

I understand it is not as simple as that all the time, but sometimes it is. Especially when you have another pick at #22, and you pass on some high end prospects in Teravainen, Forsberg, Grigorenko, Girgensons (who can play wing).

I know D-men get injured but so do centers, and quite frequently in this organization.

Finally the 'system'. I keep reading Shero drafts guys that will transition into the system, but say DB gets fired after a couple more early round exits. Does the system get abandoned all together, or does it continue on even with a new coach? If that is the case than I guess it really doesn't matter who stands behind the bench and taps the guy on the shoulder for a line change.

Or does a new coach come in with a new system, one that places an emphasis on big guys that can keep the crease clear or pound teams into submission. Does that then screw all the prospects on the farm? Or is this just an organizational philosophy and any coach that comes in here must conform to it?

I am not a hockey expert like Shero, and I am just speculating of course, it is just very confusing to figure out who is in charge of the Pens and how these decisions get made.
The only thing I can say to this is that great skating defensemen are ALWAYS needed regardless of style. Every team in the league could use these guys if they all pan out and we have an over abundance of them.

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06-27-2012, 12:46 PM
  #22
Hans Rutherford
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC24 View Post
I agree Shero has done a wonderful job with the trades.

What confuses me is stockpiling, and I mean stockpiling, these D-men. If the majority of them are just being added to use in trades later for wingers, why not just draft and develop the wingers?

I understand it is not as simple as that all the time, but sometimes it is. Especially when you have another pick at #22, and you pass on some high end prospects in Teravainen, Forsberg, Grigorenko, Girgensons (who can play wing).

I know D-men get injured but so do centers, and quite frequently in this organization.

Finally the 'system'. I keep reading Shero drafts guys that will transition into the system, but say DB gets fired after a couple more early round exits. Does the system get abandoned all together, or does it continue on even with a new coach? If that is the case than I guess it really doesn't matter who stands behind the bench and taps the guy on the shoulder for a line change.

Or does a new coach come in with a new system, one that places an emphasis on big guys that can keep the crease clear or pound teams into submission. Does that then screw all the prospects on the farm? Or is this just an organizational philosophy and any coach that comes in here must conform to it?

I am not a hockey expert like Shero, and I am just speculating of course, it is just very confusing to figure out who is in charge of the Pens and how these decisions get made.
If we're drafting and developing all these defensemen, which every team needs and wants, then that's less defensemen on all the other teams. Which increases their value due to supply-and-demand. No one ever thought we would have landed Neal + for just Goligoski.

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06-27-2012, 12:48 PM
  #23
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Please explain to me what's so hard to understand about best player available?

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06-27-2012, 12:53 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
The only thing I can say to this is that great skating defensemen are ALWAYS needed regardless of style. Every team in the league could use these guys if they all pan out and we have an over abundance of them.
And any other year, I would understand that, but this year EVERYONE was taking D-men, and those top offensive prospects were just sitting there at 8, and you could snatch up a defenceman at 22?

It is a very circular discussion I know.

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06-27-2012, 12:54 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
It all depends on their potential and likelyhood of becoming NHL players. Had we drafted Ferraro to be our top six winger instead of Despres. Then we just lost a very significant asset right there that could help us land someone like Bobby Ryan right now (just saying). And Ferraro... who knows if he'll even play in the NHL as a third liner now.

Everyone questioned Shero's call on that pick back then, and it was absolutely the right one.
But that's just one instance. I don't think we can just use that one example every time the subject of defense versus forward comes up, because there's also exceptions the other way such as taking Carl Sneep over Kulemin or Lucic.

In the Ferraro/Despres example, it happened to be the right call. Doesn't mean taking defense over forward is always the right call, though.

Also, Ferraro was rated anywhere from late 1st round to early 2nd round. He wasn't really considered a consensus high pick across the board. So any team taking him would be going with personal preference rather than because he's necessarily rated as BPA over Despres.

The Forsberg situation is a different case. He was consensus top five. Based on pretty much every ranking service going into the draft, Forsberg would have been BPA at #8. Ferraro wasn't really consensus BPA when we took Despres.

I get that the team is great at developing D prospects, to the point it specializes in it. But at some point, shouldn't maybe they figure out a way to develop F prospects as well as they do D prospects? That way they can take a forward or defense as their BPA, instead of kind of always leaning toward the D because they're better at developing them.

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