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Offseason Discussion Part III (Contract/FA chart in post #1)

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Old
05-06-2012, 09:37 PM
  #226
gordie
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
We have should signed Jagr. 1 goal & -5 in 10 playoff games.
At age 40 with those stats says only one thing and that is HAS-BEEN!


Last edited by gordie: 05-06-2012 at 09:44 PM.
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05-06-2012, 09:44 PM
  #227
Coach John McGuirk
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I would just like to point this out, and spell it out as simply as I can for people:

We were eliminated because of these reasons... A. Our defense was ****; B. Our PK was ****; C. Our coach got out-coached; and D. Our goalie was ****.

Nothing to do with the offense. Nothing. Not one thing. Our offense was NOT the reason we lost. Period. Neither was the power play.

Jagr wouldn't have saved us, and adding offense isn't going to solve the problems with this team.

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05-06-2012, 09:47 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Jakes right. MAF has his problems too. I would blame the D for the goalie getting beat back door but how many times to we have to see MAF get a peice of the puck and still see it go in. OK what about...

Staal for Elliot and Tarasenko
MAF and Martin for Marleau and Burns
Zib for Sutter

Kunitz-Crosby-Marleau
Tarasenko-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Adams-Vitale-Parros

Orpik-Letang
Burns-Despres
Engo-Nisk

Elliot
Mason
With that defense and our system... we'd need a better goalie than those two. Elliot would do well as someone's backup. Give him too many starts and he can falter, and in either case he needs a great D in front of him. He's not the kind of goalie that bails out defenses, it's the other way around. That's why he did so well in STL and can continue to do well there if they improve their roster a bit.

Bottom line you don't trade Fleury unless you're acquiring (from someone) a goalie that you can say without a doubt is top 7 or 8 in the league.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'd really like to see what Stewart could do here. For as much **** as we give DB, he did a pretty damn good job getting Neal going this season. He's a players coach..
Bylsma didn't get Neal going, having a training camp and a season on Malkin's wing did!

As if Neal was some sort of basket case who needed a coach to help him climb out of a hole. All Neal ever needed was a great C to make space for him. That's it.

As for Stewart I don't know if we'd get the same effect with him or not. He's playing better now than in the regular season (when his ice time was getting cut by 5-7 minutes a game for work ethic problems (typical Hitchcock no nonsense approach)). What I do know is you don't want to trade a major asset (nor should it be necessary) to get Chris Stewart. Martin plus a 2nd or 3rd rounder should do it, if they're looking for an elite poke-checker.

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05-06-2012, 09:48 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
I would just like to point this out, and spell it out as simply as I can for people:

We were eliminated because of these reasons... A. Our defense was ****; B. Our PK was ****; C. Our coach got out-coached; and D. Our goalie was ****.

Nothing to do with the offense. Nothing. Not one thing. Our offense was NOT the reason we lost. Period. Neither was the power play.

Jagr wouldn't have saved us, and adding offense isn't going to solve the problems with this team.
You forgot the attitude created by this inferior coaching staff was really ****; and it doesn't look like anyone really wants to correct it for 2012-2013 season.

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05-06-2012, 09:49 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
I would just like to point this out, and spell it out as simply as I can for people:

We were eliminated because of these reasons... A. Our defense was ****; B. Our PK was ****; C. Our coach got out-coached; and D. Our goalie was ****.

Nothing to do with the offense. Nothing. Not one thing. Our offense was NOT the reason we lost. Period. Neither was the power play.

Jagr wouldn't have saved us, and adding offense isn't going to solve the problems with this team.
It is truly difficult for me to understand the logic that goes behind the Jagr stuff. Are people that big on living in the past in Pittsburgh or something? ****ing let it go, people. He doesn't belong o fit here anymore given his age and our needs.

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05-06-2012, 10:07 PM
  #231
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My only hope is that this year, Bylsma as a young coach was finally humbled by the first round.

Last year, he could have easily looked at the first round and who we were missing, and thought that there were no tweaks needed, just a healthy roster.

Hopefully he's watching what Jersey's doing to Philly and taking some notes.

Sad thing is, and there's a prize involved for anyone who can answer: With their forecheck, what cup winning team do the Devils remind you of?

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05-06-2012, 10:32 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by #1GuinFan View Post


i suggest putting down the crack-pipe, this isn't that fantasy forum.
No kidding. When will people learn that this is for serious conversation.

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05-06-2012, 10:41 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
It sounds to me as if people are 'warming' to the idea of trading Staal. It sounds like it's no longer ONLY if he wants out. People really seem to want things to change up front. And that the 3C model no longer works. I couldn't disagree more.

The reasons why the 3C model has failed us, imo, is because A) injuries to 1-2 members of the 3C model, B) the defense and goaltender let them down, C) we've been badly outcoached and D) we've been slow in developing our younger talent.

Nowhere on that list does it say having Crosby, Malkin and Staal each centering their own line isn't working anymore. Because it still does. But we've lost early since winning the Cup because of the four reasons listed above. You don't trade what is part of the solution. You trade what's part of the problem.

If Staal TRULY wants out or becomes completely impossible to re-sign, talk to Carolina and see if you can get something done for Jeff Skinner. You can't deal Staal for Erik Gudbranson only. As good as he could/should become, you can't deal Staal for a defensive defenseman, no matter the upside. Gudbranson and Huberdeau, yes. Done.

But again, the money for Staal and Crosby SHOULD be there. We have players under contract NOT earning their keep. That's where we should be looking to change. There's no way I entertain Staal offers before looking into moving Fleury, Martin, Michalek, Orpik, Kennedy et al first.

I'd hate to do something hasty, and then look back on the '09 Cup and say, "man, how great was it when we had Crosby, Malkin and Staal centering their own lines?"

I hope the organization isn't taking the riches at the center position for granted right now.
I seriously doubt they are. If there's been anyone more steadfast in his belief that Staal is an essential piece to this team's success than Ray Shero, i don't know who it is. Whatever fans and members of the hockey media may say or believe, i can't imagine for a second that RS will entertain getting rid of Staal before he's absolutely certain there's no way to realistically retain him.

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05-06-2012, 10:57 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. You don't have to sell me on Stewart.

2. I don't disagree with that you said about the chemistry with Neal and Malkin. They had chemistry like Sid and Hossa did. You put two great players together, and they're going to produce and make some great plays.

3. That said, if you picked up Kulemin and slotted him on LW with Malkin and Neal, you'd see a lot more chemistry between Malkin and Neal because Neal would have more of a chance to be a shooter. I liked what Kunitz did with those two because elements he brought like the forechecking filled some missing pieces. But, Kulemin is a better board player-- a guy who can tie things up better than Kunitz-- and that was the one thing that I always saw as missing from the Kunitz-Malkin-Neal line.

You want to have some fun? You want to go for it next year? Here's what you do: TK and Martin for Malone. A 1st for Kulemin. Cooke and Orpik for Stewart and Cole. The net cap hit is a wash at worst.

Kunitz-Sid-Neal
Malone-Malkin-Kulemin
Tangradi-Staal-Stewart

Run the numbers. It's doable for next year, perhaps beyond if you move Michalek after the year and Sid/Geno don't want more. It means having Dupuis on a fourth line (or as a safety net if Tangradi can't cut it). It means having Letang, Niskanen, Michalek, Despres, Cole, Engo, Strait and a 65M payroll to open the season (or, you can sign a guy like Allen for a one year deal and still have a little for the deadline).

I'd just really love to see what this team could do IF you set it up such that Sid, Geno, AND Staal could do if you set things up on their wings such that you were enhancing, instead of neutralizing, the strength down the middle.

Eh, it doesn't matter . . . Shero would never be that aggressive. Neither he nor Bylsma would risk a few regular season wins to set up young players to make a playoff impact. And, frankly, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if any cosmetic changes matter absent significant changes in terms of how the coaching staff approaches things systemically, in terms of bench management, and in terms of how Sid, Geno, and Staal are used.

Plus, as I've said, I'm not sure how viable it is, for more than two years (when Letang's next deal hits) to tie up what would at that point be damn near 44M in Sid, Geno, Staal, Neal, Letang, and Fleury (and that assumes neither Sid nor Geno wants raises).
What about this:
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($3.000m)
James Neal ($5.000m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Jordan Staal ($4.000m) / Tyler Kennedy ($2.000m)
Eric Tangradi ($0.900m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Brandon Prust ($1.000m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.575m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Brooks Orpik ($3.750m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Matt Niskanen ($2.250m)
Brian Strait ($0.900m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
Robert Bortuzzo ($0.578m) /

GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Josh Harding ($1.250m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,084,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $4,215,833

Now, I'm not a huge TK fan, but his production is comparable to Stewart and we know he plays well with Staal. Cooke and Dupuis have one more year left, that gives BB a year to mature with the Baby Pens, and hopefully be ready to replace Duper then slide Tangradi up to Cookie's spot.

If Staal's issue is wanting more responsibility, I don't see why that can't be accomplished. Give the Big 3 fairly equal PK and PP time ... and keep in mind Staal on the second PP unit when Sid was out did produce, just not on the level that Geno and Neal did. I say fairly equal, not exactly equal. Anyway, this roster was done with this year's cap and leaves $4M to resign both Sid and Staal ... plus there's bound to be some sort of an increase despite the CBA.

That puts rookies in the D, as well as Orpik. The rookies showed well for the most part, and having an entire season will only make them better ... and putting Orpik back with Letang works. And leaves a spot for Morrow to eventually join the big club ... not necessarily on the first pairing, but on the roster.

More of a slow progression, but gives both Sid and Geno good wingers. It does leave Staal with lesser quality wings, but he's produced with them in the past ... and if he's given more responsibility next year with an eye towards and upgrade on wing the following season it may be enough.

Thoughts?

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Old
05-06-2012, 11:07 PM
  #235
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I doubt Harding signs with a team where he won't be able to at least compete for the starting job. Pittsburgh's probably not that place considering how well Fleury played in the regular season and how much money he's being paid.

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05-06-2012, 11:07 PM
  #236
Coach John McGuirk
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That defense is even worse than the debacle we had to deal with this season.

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05-06-2012, 11:10 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
I would just like to point this out, and spell it out as simply as I can for people:

We were eliminated because of these reasons... A. Our defense was ****; B. Our PK was ****; C. Our coach got out-coached; and D. Our goalie was ****.

Nothing to do with the offense. Nothing. Not one thing. Our offense was NOT the reason we lost. Period. Neither was the power play.

Jagr wouldn't have saved us, and adding offense isn't going to solve the problems with this team.
Exactly, if we don't start playing some team defense then it will be another early exit:

1. Pathetic defense structure on attacking forecheck
2. No desire to compete in the corner
3. WE SOMEONE HAVE NO IDEA THAT ON THE PK THEY MIGHT PASS DIAGONAL TO THE VACATED SLOT... SERIOUSLY BYSLMA DID I REALLY SEE THE SAME PLAY 8 or so TIMES? **** ME....
4. Trademark "Brooks Orpik" 5-6 FEET OF GAP
5. One-eyed MAF. Does he have an eye problem or Astigmatism?

Sadly, I dont' think Shero/Bylsma will correct it... "We just didn't get to our game"

I guess we'll see in the Playoffs. I don't care about the Regular Season at all, we'll see what they actually do in the Playoffs.

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05-06-2012, 11:14 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
That defense is even worse than the debacle we had to deal with this season.
That is more or less the defense we had at different times due to injury. The kids did an overall decent job. The only way they will improve is to play over a full season. The cost of defensemen is only going to go up, along with everyone else's salaries.

There's also the idea that they adapted far better to HCDB's system than the vets did ... Martin and Z were great last year. They've both had pretty good careers ... there's no way to predict that bringing in a high ticket defenseman would have any different result. At least the rookies can play the system and they have a much better potential to grow as players rather than decline.


Last edited by DegenX: 05-06-2012 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Typo
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05-06-2012, 11:19 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
That is more or less the defense we had at different times due to injury. The kids did an overall decent job. The only way they will improve is to play over a full season. The cost of defensemen is only going to go up, along with everyone else's salaries.

There's also the idea that they adapted far better to HCSB's system than the vets did ... Martin and Z were great last year. They've both had pretty good careers ... there's no way to predict that bringing in a high ticket defenseman would have any different result. At least the rookies can play the system and they have a much better potential to grow as players rather than decline.
Uh, I would not bet the farm on our system yet. Bylsma won in the first half year. We haven't done anything since. The WB Pens have been bounced every time... "Nobody is getting to their game..."

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05-06-2012, 11:21 PM
  #240
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I doubt Harding signs with a team where he won't be able to at least compete for the starting job. Pittsburgh's probably not that place considering how well Fleury played in the regular season and how much money he's being paid.
He missed the entire 2010-2011 season due to injury and played 34 games this year. He's posted great numbers, but this is the first year he's played more than 30 games. Is a starting position likely to be offered to him?

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05-06-2012, 11:24 PM
  #241
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Uh, I would not bet the farm on our system yet. Bylsma won in the first half year. We haven't done anything since. The WB Pens have been bounced every time... "Nobody is getting to their game..."
Well, HCDB is coming back next year ... and so is his system. Would you rather spend cap on expensive defensemen who may or may not adapt to his system and lose Staal or take a chance with rookies who performed just as well, and often better than, the 'vets'?

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05-06-2012, 11:45 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
Well, HCDB is coming back next year ... and so is his system. Would you rather spend cap on expensive defensemen who may or may not adapt to his system and lose Staal or take a chance with rookies who performed just as well, and often better than, the 'vets'?
Honestly, I don't know what Shero will do. Something just smells rotten on this team...

It's the same thing Shero said.... "He's still angry about "losing" this way"

Bylsma & Assistants = forgot how to coach. Does he get a bonus for unused timeouts?
Team Defensive = Just sad... seriously... it was approaching laughable at points
MAF = Love the guy. Hated the goaltending. He was downright ghastly...
PK = Just clueless... Seriously, watch how the NJ chases. Oh, that's right they don't. Boxed in blocking shots..
Players: MAF again ; ), Orpik, Kunitz, Z, Martin, our entire 4th line... just all looked ****ing bad
Forechecking = Pretty much completely disinterested in fighting for the puck
Defensive zone awareness = did you see how many times we left 2-3 Flyers in zone and didn't clear puck... 2-3 times their were 2 Flyers sitting in the crease with MAF
Puck Management = We had multiple 2+ goal leads and the PENS Forwards got caught way too deep in the Offensive Zone giving up 10+ breakaways
Discipline = Just horrible. Team discipline starts from the top.

I could go on but now I'm just sad...

Seriously, I wouldn't even know where to start to fix this team. DEFENSE maybe but they've shown some serious issues since 09.


Last edited by sexyllama: 05-07-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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05-07-2012, 12:02 AM
  #243
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Honestly, I don't know what Shero will do. Something just smells rotten on this team...

It's the same thing Shero said.... "He's still angry about "losing" this way"

Bylsma & Assistants = forgot how to coach. Does he get a bonus for unused timeouts?
Team Defensive = Just sad... seriously... it was approaching laughable at points
MAF = Love the guy. Hated the goaltending. He was downright ghastly...
PK = Just clueless... Seriously, watch how the NJ chases. Oh, that's right they don't. Boxed in blocking shots..
Players: MAF again ; ), Orpik, Kunitz, Z, Martin, our entire 4th line... just all looked ****ing bad
Forechecking = Pretty much completely disinterested in fighting for the puck
Defensive zone awareness = did you see how many times we left 2-3 Flyers in zone and didn't clear puck... 2-3 times their were 2 Flyers sitting in the crease with MAF
Puck Management = We had multiple 2+ goal leads and the PENS Forwards got caught way to deep in the Offensive Zone giving up 10+ breakaways
Discipline = Just horrible. This team discipline starts from the top.

I could go on but now I'm just sad...

Seriously, I wouldn't even know where to start to fix this team. DEFENSE maybe but they've shown some serious issues since 09.
to the bolded ...

I'm on the record as being one of the folks who has issues with HCDB, and I think a lot of this comes back to him. He's coming back next season, though. I'm hoping that he finds the middle ground between the great defense of 10/11 and the great offense of 11/12. I'm also hoping that a full season of playing together makes a difference as well ... something that hasn't happened much over the last two seasons. And if it means dealing with the growing pains of a few rookies (and a young coaching staff) to keep the core together, then so be it.

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05-07-2012, 12:22 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
to the bolded ...

I'm on the record as being one of the folks who has issues with HCDB, and I think a lot of this comes back to him. He's coming back next season, though. I'm hoping that he finds the middle ground between the great defense of 10/11 and the great offense of 11/12. I'm also hoping that a full season of playing together makes a difference as well ... something that hasn't happened much over the last two seasons. And if it means dealing with the growing pains of a few rookies (and a young coaching staff) to keep the core together, then so be it.
I said it on another thread. We have had all kinds of "excuses" about Disco's system for the last 3 years (he gets a pass for a 1/2 year and the Cup; even though that's starting to look suspect at best)

Hopefully, in the fourth year, everyone "gets to their game" because we basically wasted 3 years with #1 and #2 Players in the ENTIRE WORLD.

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05-07-2012, 12:47 AM
  #245
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Rags, Devils, Phoenix and LA

Suck me sideways. We should be on our merry way to the 4th Cup.

Ah well, at least Juventus won lo scudetto

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05-07-2012, 12:55 AM
  #246
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Man, I just had a weird dream that we traded Malkin and Martin to Edmonton for Hall and RNH. Probably pretty good value for us now that I've had time to think it over, but I was so pissed off about it in my dream. I was watching TV and they showed Shero confronting Malkin in a hallway where it looked like Geno got the news he was going to Edmonton. He looked very emotional and unhappy. He just walked away from Shero with a very disgusted look on his face.

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05-07-2012, 01:24 AM
  #247
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I'm going to say this again:

I understand we need a lot of work and I more than anyone am calling for changes...but with that said, we all need to be willing accept that on Oct 5th we could be icing:

Sullivan-Crosby-Dupuis
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
Park/Asham-Vitale-Adams

Letang-Martin
Orpik-Michalek
Lovejoy-Engo

MAF
Random $550k backup

Here's why: Geurin was brought back for one more year despite a marginal year...I can see Shero offering the same to Sullivan. 2nd line stays the same, 3rd line stays the same because we want to keep Staal but DB is incapable of making changes and adjustments, 4th line will always be grindy grinder, and grinderton regardless of play.

Letang is going nowhere and Orpik is a Penguin...again, regardless of play. M&M will be sticking around because it will all be chucked up to "just a bad year". Niskanen will ask for a small raise and Shero will let him walk like the other fine FA's we've seen go. Strait won't make the team for some odd reason and we'll lose him to waivers. Despres will look good but be sent down.

Johnson will be gone but Shero won't go after a good back up...just a cheap plug in.

Why all of this? Because despite how piss poor we did against the Cryers overall...when we turned it on...we steamrolled them...and that unit has the ability to steamroll anyone in the league. It just comes down to players performing to their capabilities.

I have these hunches...and they tend to be right. I had a hunch we would bring back Guerin because the org liked him...we did. I had a hunch that Malone and Scuds would seek more money...they did. I had a hunch Shero wouldn't offer Jagr enough $$$ and ultimately pass on him...he did. I had a hunch that Shero wouldn't make any impactful moves at the deadline despite clearly and very obvious deficiencies.

My hunches now is that he's gonna play it safe by resigning Sully, not giving up on M&M or Brucey, and not go after a serious backup. With that, he's got Jagr (or Talbot if you will) the Niskanen situation and we're gonna lose him.

These days of DB and Shero being gods are coming to an end for me. They have the pieces...they just can fit them. They're like a damn 3 year old trying to smash the random puzzle pieces together with the remote hoping when its done it resembles a Cup.

It's obvious the defense needs retooling...but no one is going to do a darn thing about it. We can have these dreams of Suter or Parise...but it's not gonna happen. That's just my hunch.

Aside from that...I would love if we could swing Martin+ to LA for Brown or Orpik or Martin to STL for Stewart. Then build this:

Staal-Sid-Stewart/Brown
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Dupuis-Kennedy
Tangradi-Vitale-Someone not named Adams

Letang-Michalek
Niskanen-FA
Despres-Engo

Fleury
Backup

Staal gets his offensive chance with top minutes. Him and Sid could become hybrid C-W's or whatever...if thats what he wants. 2nd line is gold. The third line...Dupuis spent some time at center and it wasn't too bad. That line is tasked with being the pure shutdown line. Everyone one of those guys can play that role well. Not only that but each one has enough offensive capabilities to chip in every now and then. 4th line is gonna be grinders so...who cares really. Would like to see Tangradi get some more NHL time and we clearly have to keep Vitale. **** off Adams.

Letang-Michalek can work
Niskanen can handle top 4 mins-Sign a good FA
Despres gets NHL time-Engo stays forever!
Strait is our 7th man-**** off Lovejoy.

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05-07-2012, 02:49 AM
  #248
Honour Over Glory
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Random back-up?

Did people miss this season altogether? This should show people just how important a back-up really is.

The players aren't the only ones that should be ashamed of the playoff showing, Bylsma & Co as well. This thread is mind numbing, so many bad ideas with some good mixed in there. Some people are just panicking way too much while others aren't really understanding what the problems where and want to protect their "favorites" on the team.

I am just looking forward to the draft, to see how the Pens do and at the end of it, take a look at what they thought the problem areas were with the Pens prospect pool (see where their picks are heavily weighted in regards to positions - lots of C's? LW's? G's?)...

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05-07-2012, 06:56 AM
  #249
regard
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Martin+ isnt going to get us Dustin Brown. Hes having a great playoffs, and hes affordable. Any chance to get him is probably gone, either way does Martin sound like the return you'd want for a good young captain?

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05-07-2012, 07:00 AM
  #250
Ogrezilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regard View Post
Martin+ isnt going to get us Dustin Brown. Hes having a great playoffs, and hes affordable. Any chance to get him is probably gone, either way does Martin sound like the return you'd want for a good young captain?
trading Brown would have been a huge mistake for LA unless they got completely overpayed.

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