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Offseason Discussion Part III (Contract/FA chart in post #1)

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05-06-2012, 01:40 PM
  #201
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Bylsma sees Tangradi in practice every day. He has a better impression of Tangradi's game and capabilities than 100% of the people on this board.

Perhaps Tangradi just isn't good enough to play bigger minutes as opposed to Bylsma's incompetence? I guess Bylsma just has some sort of crush on players like Vitale, Despres, and Strait because it has nothing to do with how they play hockey.

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05-06-2012, 02:06 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21 View Post
Bylsma sees Tangradi in practice every day. He has a better impression of Tangradi's game and capabilities than 100% of the people on this board.

Perhaps Tangradi just isn't good enough to play bigger minutes as opposed to Bylsma's incompetence? I guess Bylsma just has some sort of crush on players like Vitale, Despres, and Strait because it has nothing to do with how they play hockey.
noooo shhhhh, just bash Bylsma. That's way too sensible to actually be correct. He's at the WC right now, he obviously doesn't care about the penguins. He should be at home strategizing and reading "Herb Brooks: The Inside Story of a Hockey Mastermind". Malkin's heart is in the wrong place, after this he's likely to bolt back to Russia.

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05-06-2012, 02:17 PM
  #203
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I think a lot of the people with Tangradi making the big squad thus far is his contract status. When you're sitting there as a coach and a GM, and you have decisions to make on who stays and who goes, it's real easy to say, "Well...this guy is on a two-way deal and doesn't have to go through waivers."

That's how I would look at it. I think with Tangradi having to go through waivers now, he will get more opportunity with the big club.

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05-06-2012, 02:26 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I think a lot of the people with Tangradi making the big squad thus far is his contract status. When you're sitting there as a coach and a GM, and you have decisions to make on who stays and who goes, it's real easy to say, "Well...this guy is on a two-way deal and doesn't have to go through waivers."

That's how I would look at it. I think with Tangradi having to go through waivers now, he will get more opportunity with the big club.
I agree, and i think how he played at the end of the year in his limited appearances with the Pens and how he's playing now with WBS will give them more than enough confidence to give him a legitimate shot at a full-time role.

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05-06-2012, 02:55 PM
  #205
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I think a lot of the people with Tangradi making the big squad thus far is his contract status. When you're sitting there as a coach and a GM, and you have decisions to make on who stays and who goes, it's real easy to say, "Well...this guy is on a two-way deal and doesn't have to go through waivers."

That's how I would look at it. I think with Tangradi having to go through waivers now, he will get more opportunity with the big club.
I think that most people understand the rationale behind what happened. That said, wasn't it a little hard to watch that opening round and say to yourself 'gee, it might have been nice to know if Tangradi could have played an impact top nine role'. I found myself saying the same thing about Despres.

That's not to say that either would've been able to handle it. But, the fact that Bylsma never really gave it a look during the regular season made the whole question moot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21 View Post
Bylsma sees Tangradi in practice every day. He has a better impression of Tangradi's game and capabilities than 100% of the people on this board.

Perhaps Tangradi just isn't good enough to play bigger minutes as opposed to Bylsma's incompetence? I guess Bylsma just has some sort of crush on players like Vitale, Despres, and Strait because it has nothing to do with how they play hockey.
I get this rationale too. My gut feeling is that Bylsma isn't able to trust young players to learn in anything more than a bottom role. Think about it: What young player (not a big name, but someone with more talent than a Vitale or an Englland) has he ever shown the patience and willingness to trust out there in an enhanced role to see if he can handle it and learn? Tangradi? Jeffrey? Despres?

I wrote this before, and I'll write it again: If Dan Bylsma, rather than Michel Therrien, had been the Penguins coach at 2006 training camp, then Jordan Staal would have spent the 2006-2007 season in juniors and Letang wouldn't have gotten six games (anyone who doubts the comment about Letang, I've got two words for you . . . Joe Morrow . . . with Orpik out, giving him a cup of coffee would have been a no-brainer for Therrien in 2006).

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05-06-2012, 04:57 PM
  #206
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Chris Stewart had a great fight today, but a terrible Talbot impression.

Would like that size on Crosby's line.

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05-06-2012, 05:14 PM
  #207
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Chris Stewart had a great fight today, but a terrible Talbot impression.

Would like that size on Crosby's line.
Frankly, what I was thinking watching that game was about when Dean Lombardi was desperate to do something and made Dustin Brown available to select teams (when Brown and the Kings were in a mega slump and on the verge of having no chance at making the playoffs). We know it happened. We all assumed that it was to the Pens for a defenseman. But, the later rumor became it was for Kunitz + something (I figure maybe Bennett or TK or Tangradi). And, Kunitz was a non-starter for Shero.

Made perfect sense. Kunitz was killing it with Malkin and Neal. BUT, what Malkin and Neal needed wasn't Kunitz but simply someone who approximated what Kunitz does on the ice forechecking, playing defense, and maybe a little more in terms of the board work.

Makes me wonder what might have been . . .

Kunitz + Bennett for Brown (the guy we've always called the perfect winger for Sid).

TK and Martin for Malone (the guy who always was the perfect winger for Geno.

Bortuzzo and a 2nd for Grossman.

The net cap effect of all those deals would have been to CUT payroll by 2.5M, meaning there still would've been room to make a deal . . .

BUT, those are the types of moves that would've required a GM to take a few gambles. They're the types of moves that would've required a GM to see that there were fundamental flaws in terms of his teams ability to matchup in the playoffs (some of us here were talking about that, when Sid was back the first time, even as Sid came back the second time).

Watching today's game, I asked myself 'would Ray Shero have traded Cullen and Zalapski for Francis and Samuellson in 1991'. My answer: No. And, I answered 'no' for the same reasons people said Ray Shero stood pat this year . . . because all seemed so well during the regular season, so why worry if there might be issues for the playoffs.

I'm sorry, but I've got to say it: When guys like Chris Kunitz EVER are non-starters when the perfect winger for Crosby is made available, there's a problem with how the GM approaches his job.

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05-06-2012, 05:15 PM
  #208
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To be fair, the other thing I was thinking watching today's game: If Bylsma ever were willing to use Crosby and Malkin like Daryl Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar, then we would come nowhere near feeling the sense of loss we've got now when we talk about trading Jordan Staal.

The final thought: Two top centers with two good wingers each, solid contributions from a third and fourth line, good team defense, and a situation where the goalie has to make a few great saves a game (not a few great ones every half period) seems to be a formula that might not be the worst thing in the world for the Penguins.

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05-06-2012, 05:36 PM
  #209
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I'd really like to see what Stewart could do here. For as much **** as we give DB, he did a pretty damn good job getting Neal going this season. He's a players coach. Gives them confidence. Prime atmosphere for Stewart. Let alone an elite playmaking center and a system that will have him on the rush and in one on one situations quite a bit.

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05-06-2012, 05:57 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
To be fair, the other thing I was thinking watching today's game: If Bylsma ever were willing to use Crosby and Malkin like Daryl Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar, then we would come nowhere near feeling the sense of loss we've got now when we talk about trading Jordan Staal.

The final thought: Two top centers with two good wingers each, solid contributions from a third and fourth line, good team defense, and a situation where the goalie has to make a few great saves a game (not a few great ones every half period) seems to be a formula that might not be the worst thing in the world for the Penguins.
We can watch Philly reap the rewards of a purposed overhaul. They changed the mindset and brought in great young talent to play a certain way.

The Pens have Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. The 2 best players in the world. The coach needs to find a way to get them dominating from 2 lines; more games than not. They also need to get talent that supports the style that Crosby and Malkin play best with.

Trading Staal, Martin, Orpik, TK and possibly Michalek will bring in the right pieces to be a skilled and physically dominant team. It will just take an aggressive approach this summer to trade those solid assets for the pieces that fit best.

That is why I am all about trading Staal to get Gudbranson.

Using the other pieces to get Stewart.

Then sign Parise and you have an amazing top 2 lines.

Not sure that Brown will be traded this summer, but there is still the Richards wanting to be captain issue. If they win the Cup, I think Brown may still be gone. Then you probably do something with Kunitz.

It would take an aggressive and purposed push this summer, but the pieces are there to make it happen.

Can you imagine:

Parise - Crosby - Brown
Stewart - Malkin - Neal

Not totally out of the realm of possibility, will just take some guts, some swallowed pride and a willingness to change course a bit.

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05-06-2012, 05:57 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'd really like to see what Stewart could do here. For as much **** as we give DB, he did a pretty damn good job getting Neal going this season. He's a players coach. Gives them confidence. Prime atmosphere for Stewart. Let alone an elite playmaking center and a system that will have him on the rush and in one on one situations quite a bit.
Bylsma would give Stewart a chance, if only because he'd have no choice . . .

Seriously, Stewart makes too much sense to get. Orpik for Stewart + Cole?

O'k, the Orpik club might get its knickers in a twist, so I just had some fun thoughts designed to piss nobody off () . . .

Cooke, Bennett, a defensive prospect like Bortuzzo for Stewart

A 1st for Kulemin (yeah, I know, risk averse Ray won't do it)

TK, Martin for Malone

Kunitz-Crosby-Neal
Malone-Malkin-Kulemin
Tangradi-Staal-Stewart

Figure the other four forwards are Dupuis, Vitale, Jeffrey, Adams. Count Michalek, Letang, Orpik, Englland, and Fleury.

You've got just under a 54M payroll. Stewart and Kulemin would be RFA's. Count them for 6M. Add Despres, resign Niskanen, and there's another 3.5M. Give me Bryan Allen, go for it next year, and call it a day . . .

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05-06-2012, 05:59 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by hockeyisgood View Post
We can watch Philly reap the rewards of a purposed overhaul. They changed the mindset and brought in great young talent to play a certain way.

The Pens have Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. The 2 best players in the world. The coach needs to find a way to get them dominating from 2 lines; more games than not. They also need to get talent that supports the style that Crosby and Malkin play best with.

Trading Staal, Martin, Orpik, TK and possibly Michalek will bring in the right pieces to be a skilled and physically dominant team. It will just take an aggressive approach this summer to trade those solid assets for the pieces that fit best.

That is why I am all about trading Staal to get Gudbranson.

Using the other pieces to get Stewart.

Then sign Parise and you have an amazing top 2 lines.

Not sure that Brown will be traded this summer, but there is still the Richards wanting to be captain issue. If they win the Cup, I think Brown may still be gone. Then you probably do something with Kunitz.

It would take an aggressive and purposed push this summer, but the pieces are there to make it happen.

Can you imagine:

Parise - Crosby - Brown
Stewart - Malkin - Neal

Not totally out of the realm of possibility, will just take some guts, some swallowed pride and a willingness to change course a bit.
The Brown ship has sailed, but I'll say it again:

1. The Pens advantage isn't the three centers. It's that they have the two best centers in hockey. If you gave each one of them two good wingers each, then nobody has the horses to deal with that.

2. If you used Sid and Geno like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar, then people might not be as apoplectic about the potential loss of Staal.

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05-06-2012, 06:14 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Bylsma would give Stewart a chance, if only because he'd have no choice . . .

Seriously, Stewart makes too much sense to get. Orpik for Stewart + Cole?

O'k, the Orpik club might get its knickers in a twist, so I just had some fun thoughts designed to piss nobody off () . . .

Cooke, Bennett, a defensive prospect like Bortuzzo for Stewart

A 1st for Kulemin (yeah, I know, risk averse Ray won't do it)

TK, Martin for Malone

Kunitz-Crosby-Neal
Malone-Malkin-Kulemin
Tangradi-Staal-Stewart

Figure the other four forwards are Dupuis, Vitale, Jeffrey, Adams. Count Michalek, Letang, Orpik, Englland, and Fleury.

You've got just under a 54M payroll. Stewart and Kulemin would be RFA's. Count them for 6M. Add Despres, resign Niskanen, and there's another 3.5M. Give me Bryan Allen, go for it next year, and call it a day . . .
You are right on with Orpik.

I have been pushing Orpik and TK for Stewart, Cole and Rattie.

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05-06-2012, 06:16 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
The Brown ship has sailed, but I'll say it again:

1. The Pens advantage isn't the three centers. It's that they have the two best centers in hockey. If you gave each one of them two good wingers each, then nobody has the horses to deal with that.

2. If you used Sid and Geno like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar, then people might not be as apoplectic about the potential loss of Staal.
Kirk, you seem to put some thought into what you write.

You are right about giving 2 great wingers to each top line and putting grit on your bottom 2.

Dupuis and Cooke are very solid 3rd liners.

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05-06-2012, 06:18 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Bylsma would give Stewart a chance, if only because he'd have no choice . . .

Seriously, Stewart makes too much sense to get. Orpik for Stewart + Cole?

O'k, the Orpik club might get its knickers in a twist, so I just had some fun thoughts designed to piss nobody off () . . .

Cooke, Bennett, a defensive prospect like Bortuzzo for Stewart

A 1st for Kulemin (yeah, I know, risk averse Ray won't do it)

TK, Martin for Malone

Kunitz-Crosby-Neal
Malone-Malkin-Kulemin
Tangradi-Staal-Stewart

Figure the other four forwards are Dupuis, Vitale, Jeffrey, Adams. Count Michalek, Letang, Orpik, Englland, and Fleury.

You've got just under a 54M payroll. Stewart and Kulemin would be RFA's. Count them for 6M. Add Despres, resign Niskanen, and there's another 3.5M. Give me Bryan Allen, go for it next year, and call it a day . . .
I'd rather us stay away from free agency. D-men are going to be paid out the ***. I'd rather us stick with Niskanen and Despres as our replacements for Martin.

Maybe a guy like Boyes in free agency, maybe. Get one of Stewart/Kulemin in the offseason and I'm a happy guy.

Kulemin is well, perfect for us. PK, netfront on the PP (yes he's a better option than Kunitz), can play either wing in the top 9. And of course, knows how to play with Geno. As much as Malkin/Neal had success this season, their chemistry is overrated.

The best way I could describe Stewart at his best is an Ovy-lite. His ability to score off the rush with one of Sid/Geno would be a sight to see. Get his scoring touch back, get his confidence back and it's very possible he starts to realize his potential as a legit power forward as a physical force and net front guy.

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05-06-2012, 06:24 PM
  #216
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Does anyone here use Roku for Center Ice?

I'd be curious to know about the quality.

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05-06-2012, 06:44 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21 View Post
Bylsma sees Tangradi in practice every day. He has a better impression of Tangradi's game and capabilities than 100% of the people on this board.

Perhaps Tangradi just isn't good enough to play bigger minutes as opposed to Bylsma's incompetence? I guess Bylsma just has some sort of crush on players like Vitale, Despres, and Strait because it has nothing to do with how they play hockey.
Perhaps Bylsma isn't infallible? He did just take a pretty talented team to a first round loss. Tangardi has 6 points in 7 playoff games in the AHL & isn't even getting first line minutes. He's just been given a little bit of chance & taken advantage of it.

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05-06-2012, 06:44 PM
  #218
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I'd rather us stay away from free agency. D-men are going to be paid out the ***. I'd rather us stick with Niskanen and Despres as our replacements for Martin.

Maybe a guy like Boyes in free agency, maybe. Get one of Stewart/Kulemin in the offseason and I'm a happy guy.

Kulemin is well, perfect for us. PK, netfront on the PP (yes he's a better option than Kunitz), can play either wing in the top 9. And of course, knows how to play with Geno. As much as Malkin/Neal had success this season, their chemistry is overrated.

The best way I could describe Stewart at his best is an Ovy-lite. His ability to score off the rush with one of Sid/Geno would be a sight to see. Get his scoring touch back, get his confidence back and it's very possible he starts to realize his potential as a legit power forward as a physical force and net front guy.
1. You don't have to sell me on Stewart.

2. I don't disagree with that you said about the chemistry with Neal and Malkin. They had chemistry like Sid and Hossa did. You put two great players together, and they're going to produce and make some great plays.

3. That said, if you picked up Kulemin and slotted him on LW with Malkin and Neal, you'd see a lot more chemistry between Malkin and Neal because Neal would have more of a chance to be a shooter. I liked what Kunitz did with those two because elements he brought like the forechecking filled some missing pieces. But, Kulemin is a better board player-- a guy who can tie things up better than Kunitz-- and that was the one thing that I always saw as missing from the Kunitz-Malkin-Neal line.

You want to have some fun? You want to go for it next year? Here's what you do: TK and Martin for Malone. A 1st for Kulemin. Cooke and Orpik for Stewart and Cole. The net cap hit is a wash at worst.

Kunitz-Sid-Neal
Malone-Malkin-Kulemin
Tangradi-Staal-Stewart

Run the numbers. It's doable for next year, perhaps beyond if you move Michalek after the year and Sid/Geno don't want more. It means having Dupuis on a fourth line (or as a safety net if Tangradi can't cut it). It means having Letang, Niskanen, Michalek, Despres, Cole, Engo, Strait and a 65M payroll to open the season (or, you can sign a guy like Allen for a one year deal and still have a little for the deadline).

I'd just really love to see what this team could do IF you set it up such that Sid, Geno, AND Staal could do if you set things up on their wings such that you were enhancing, instead of neutralizing, the strength down the middle.

Eh, it doesn't matter . . . Shero would never be that aggressive. Neither he nor Bylsma would risk a few regular season wins to set up young players to make a playoff impact. And, frankly, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if any cosmetic changes matter absent significant changes in terms of how the coaching staff approaches things systemically, in terms of bench management, and in terms of how Sid, Geno, and Staal are used.

Plus, as I've said, I'm not sure how viable it is, for more than two years (when Letang's next deal hits) to tie up what would at that point be damn near 44M in Sid, Geno, Staal, Neal, Letang, and Fleury (and that assumes neither Sid nor Geno wants raises).

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05-06-2012, 08:37 PM
  #219
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It sounds to me as if people are 'warming' to the idea of trading Staal. It sounds like it's no longer ONLY if he wants out. People really seem to want things to change up front. And that the 3C model no longer works. I couldn't disagree more.

The reasons why the 3C model has failed us, imo, is because A) injuries to 1-2 members of the 3C model, B) the defense and goaltender let them down, C) we've been badly outcoached and D) we've been slow in developing our younger talent.

Nowhere on that list does it say having Crosby, Malkin and Staal each centering their own line isn't working anymore. Because it still does. But we've lost early since winning the Cup because of the four reasons listed above. You don't trade what is part of the solution. You trade what's part of the problem.

If Staal TRULY wants out or becomes completely impossible to re-sign, talk to Carolina and see if you can get something done for Jeff Skinner. You can't deal Staal for Erik Gudbranson only. As good as he could/should become, you can't deal Staal for a defensive defenseman, no matter the upside. Gudbranson and Huberdeau, yes. Done.

But again, the money for Staal and Crosby SHOULD be there. We have players under contract NOT earning their keep. That's where we should be looking to change. There's no way I entertain Staal offers before looking into moving Fleury, Martin, Michalek, Orpik, Kennedy et al first.

I'd hate to do something hasty, and then look back on the '09 Cup and say, "man, how great was it when we had Crosby, Malkin and Staal centering their own lines?"

I hope the organization isn't taking the riches at the center position for granted right now.

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05-06-2012, 09:08 PM
  #220
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I think moving Martin's salary is a must this offseason. Open up enough cap room to acquire another top 6 winger. Move forward with our D. Resign Staal. I'm happy with that.

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05-06-2012, 09:23 PM
  #221
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We have should signed Jagr. 1 goal & -5 in 10 playoff games.

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05-06-2012, 09:30 PM
  #222
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We have should signed Jagr. 1 goal & -5 in 10 playoff games.
Yeah, but he made that one goal count. It was pretty much the dagger to the season.

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05-06-2012, 09:33 PM
  #223
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Trading Staal before July 1st allows the Pens to go all in for Parise. Go long-term at 6years-$6M. And I would imagine most wouldn't be disappointed if the Pens traded Staal for Parise.

Getting Gudbranson does make the D much better. He is the physical and skilled anchor of the defense that the Pens need. He has the makings of a Shea Weber. Plays a different style than Letang and is much more composed.

Staal, Martin and Strait for Gudbranson, Trocheck and Grimaldi

Trocheck gives the Pens a decent center prospect and Grimaldi becomes the wild-card winger.

I think Orpik has to go. He is the old guy in the group and it seems he doesn't fit with the core anymore. He has been better at calling out the team than playing this year. But he does have value.

Orpik and TK for Stewart, Cole and Rattie

Stewart has a chance to be Neal 2.0, and can you imagine the space Crosby and Parise would make for him. Cole brings more of the physical defensive play that the Pens need. Rattie helps to give the Pens some prospect depth at forward.

I think you can either trade Michalek for a 3C or deal him at the deadline when Despres is ready to play full-time. Then Morrow may be ready to be the 7th D-man. If Michalek goes:

Michalek and Jeffrey for Lander and 2012 2nd

you have...

Parise (6) - Crosby (8.7) - Stewart (3.25)
Kunitz (3.75) - Malkin (8.7) - Neal (5)
Cooke (1.8) - Lander (.9) - Dupuis (1.5)
Tangradi (.85) - Vitale (.55) - Adams (.675)
Park (.55)

Letang (3.5) - Despres (.840)
Gudbranson (3.2) - Niskanen (1.8)
Cole (1.3) - Engelland (.567)
Bortuzzo (.6)

Fluery (5)
Thiessen (.6)

With this the Pens could go with 7 D often. The scoring is there. The D hasn't always. Also, I say go with the young defensemen. Let them grow in the NHL.

There would be room there to go after Suter, but Gudbranson will fit just as well. And Gudbranson is way more physical. But either way, this gives the Pens flexibility to sign Allen for a couple of years to ease the transition to the young core.


i suggest putting down the crack-pipe, this isn't that fantasy forum.

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05-06-2012, 09:34 PM
  #224
mpp9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
We have should signed Jagr. 1 goal & -5 in 10 playoff games.
I'd still take him here next year on a smaller contract. But good post.

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Old
05-06-2012, 09:36 PM
  #225
Darth Vitale
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I still can't believe people think Jagr would've made the difference here. We'd still be golfing folks, end of discussion. Our problem was ****** D and ****** goaltending. Put Jagr on Sid's line... put Talbot in for Vitale. WE STILL LOSE. Jagr has been mediocre at best for Philly this year, especially considering he played with Giroux the whole season.

The 90s are gone folks, and so is 90s Jagr. But his attitude here still would've been ****, rest assured.

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