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Summer Moves Part 2: The Speculation thread

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Old
04-11-2012, 04:10 PM
  #1
joshjull
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Summer Moves Part 2: The Speculation thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Are there any examples of a team trading an established scoring center with only a year on his deal, and in return getting a high end prospect?

I can't think of any off the top of my head.

I'm not sure.

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04-11-2012, 04:11 PM
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Jame
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Are there any examples of a team trading an established scoring center with only a year on his deal, and in return getting a high end prospect?

I can't think of any off the top of my head.

(in response to the Roy to Chicago for Mcneil/Pirri idea)

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04-11-2012, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Are there any examples of a team trading an established scoring center with only a year on his deal, and in return getting a high end prospect?

I can't think of any off the top of my head.

(in response to the Roy to Chicago for Mcneil/Pirri idea)
Richards for schenn and simmonds

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04-11-2012, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Are there any examples of a team trading an established scoring center with only a year on his deal, and in return getting a high end prospect?

I can't think of any off the top of my head.

(in response to the Roy to Chicago for Mcneil/Pirri idea)
The trade I would imagine would involve more parts than just. Some hoped for Bolland when this rumor surfaced but I'd be surprised if the Hawks parted with him.

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04-11-2012, 04:14 PM
  #5
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
So comparing him to a player he is no where near (Iginla) is the proper way to evaluate a player?
I'm pretty sure ALL asset evaluation includes projection

Quote:
Bobby Ryan is a very good offensive player with some edge. He will pot 30-35g and 60-ish points. Sort of like Stafford when he is on his game.
come on man... this is just silly. That's 2 Sabres fans today... one comparing him to Vanek, the other comparing him to Stafford.

#2 overall pick
4 straight 30 goal seasons in first 4 years
120-150 hits a year
7th, 4th, 11th, 11th in ES goals the last 4 years (7th this year)

Quote:
You seem to forget I'm a Ducks fan and have seen plenty of Ryan. He is not nearly the physically imposing player Iginla is. Ryan rarely fights and thats part of what makes Iginla, Iginla. And Iginla has had some 40+goal 90+point seasons.
oh, now you want to get into details... before we were just classifying players by their goal totals, but now when you see a difference... NOW you want to be specific about what they bring to the table.

Iginla didn't have ONE 30 goal season in his first 4 years... Ryan has 4 consecutive.
Quote:
Ryan isn't a player that needs a change of scenary or more ice time to get his numbers up. He has been averaging 18-20mins a night the last few years and gets time with Getzlaf and Perry on the PP and at ES from time to time.
yea, Power Forwards games don't grow with time


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So who is he going to tear it up with when he comes here that would be on the level of the players he was already with?
I'd enjoy a Vanek-Hodgson-Ryan line

Quote:
Btw this has to be the first time calling a player a 30-35 goal scorer is an insult to that player.
It's not an insult, it's just recognizing your style... just like above. When it fits you to be minimalist, you go minimalist... but when that same minimalist description doesn't encapsulate everything for YOUR argument, then you get specific (see Iginla above)

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04-11-2012, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Richards for schenn and simmonds
no, no its not

Roy is a UFA in just 1 season and Richards has correct me if I am wrong 11 years left?

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Old
04-11-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The trade I would imagine would involve more parts than just. Some hoped for Bolland when this rumor surfaced but I'd be surprised if the Hawks parted with him.
nowadays, most trades seem to break down 3 ways

1. Young Talent for Young Talent (at similar stage)
(Hodgson for Kassian) (Shattenkirk/Stewart for Johnson/1st)

2. Salary for Salary (total)
(Phaneuf for a bunch of contracts)

3. Long Term for Future/Young Talent
(Carter for Voracek, 1st)

You just don't see a lot of Short Term for Future/Young Talent

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04-11-2012, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Are there any examples of a team trading an established scoring center with only a year on his deal, and in return getting a high end prospect?
Well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
and just because you cant find a perfect comparison.... doesnt mean it shouldn't/couldn't happen... its kind of a unique scenario.
:v

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04-11-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Well



:v
so there aren't any examples?

i didn't say it couldnt happen



(what was the unique scenario... you know, for context)

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04-11-2012, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
so there aren't any examples?

i didn't say it couldnt happen



(what was the unique scenario... you know, for context)
I'm just dicking around because this board is driving me nuts. You were referring to Pegula's ownership.

e: I really can't think of any unless you count 1sts as equivalent to prospects

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04-11-2012, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
I'm just dicking around because this board is driving me nuts. You were referring to Pegula's ownership.
grrr


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04-11-2012, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
I'm just dicking around because this board is driving me nuts. You were referring to Pegula's ownership.

e: I really can't think of any unless you count 1sts as equivalent to prospects
same at times, the 5 word bashing posts. Its nice when people put thought into posts even if the disagree like JoshJull, Jame, and others

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04-11-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I'm pretty sure ALL asset evaluation includes projection
Sure it does. But saying what the player is at the moment is also part of it.
Quote:
come on man... this is just silly. That's 2 Sabres fans today... one comparing him to Vanek, the other comparing him to Stafford.
and you compared him to Iginla. OMG CRAZINESS!!

Btw I compared him to Stafford on his game which would be last year's Stafford and the one we saw the last month and half this year. I would say thats pretty accurate.
Quote:
#2 overall pick
4 straight 30 goal seasons in first 4 years
120-150 hits a year
7th, 4th, 11th, 11th in ES goals the last 4 years (7th this year)

Who cares where he was picked and I already know all about his stats but thanks for passing them along.

Quote:
oh, now you want to get into details... before we were just classifying players by their goal totals, but now when you see a difference... NOW you want to be specific about what they bring to the table.
You compared him to Iginla and I countered with who Iginla is and this is your response?

I guess its easier than accepting the fact that he isn't the same type of player Iginla is in terms of physical play.

Quote:
Iginla didn't have ONE 30 goal season in his first 4 years... Ryan has 4 consecutive.
I know this and I still don't see Ryan putting up the numbers Iginla did in his prime.

Quote:
yea, Power Forwards games don't grow with time

never said they didn't.

Quote:
I'd enjoy a Vanek-Hodgson-Ryan line
I'm glad to hear it but neither Vanek nor Hodgson are on the level of Getzlaf and Perry.


Quote:
It's not an insult, it's just recognizing your style... just like above. When it fits you to be minimalist, you go minimalist... but when that same minimalist description doesn't encapsulate everything for YOUR argument, then you get specific (see Iginla above)

You're trying too hard to frame me as some sort of Ryan hater. I'm not. The funny thing is if Ryan is the level of player you claim he is. Then why would the Ducks trade him to us for one year of Roy?

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04-11-2012, 04:34 PM
  #14
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we can thank Don Cherry for raising McNabb and Brennan's value by pumping their tires last week on CBC Hockey Night in Canada

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04-11-2012, 04:36 PM
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What did Cherry say?

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Old
04-11-2012, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
How would you rate Nashville and St. Louis in terms of center depth? It'll be interesting to see how they do specifically. Neither has any elite centers and rely more on a strong defensive game.

St. Louis: Backes (54 points in 82 games), Berglund (38 points in 82 games), Arnott (34 points in 72 games)

Nashville: Legwand (53 points in 78 games), Fisher (51 points in 72 games), Wilson (35 points in 68 games)
You don't have to have elite centers to be considered strong up the middle. I think too many posters make that leap.


Quote:
I think you could easily make the case that Ennis, Hodgson, and Roy is as good a group of centers as those two teams have if Ennis and Hodgson continue to build on what they did this year
They certainly have the potential to be as good.

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04-11-2012, 04:48 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
What did Cherry say?
just did a feature/piece on them saying they will be great players and pumped their tires, might be a link somewhere

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04-11-2012, 04:48 PM
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You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment with the Roy talk. I'm sure Darcy will make a bunch of phone calls, but I'm also pretty sure he won't think any of the proposed deals send back enough value.

On the other hand, even if we stand pat with Roy, our center situation going into next season is completely different -- and substantially better -- than it was for most of this season. The idea of a contract-year Roy playing 3rd-line center and offering depth to hedge against injury makes sense. Would I like to land Getzlaf or Staal? Absolutely. But Ennis-Silent G- Roy down the middle is a lot better than Hecht-Roy-Goose/Leino.

Moving Ennis to center was the equivalent of making a big trade for a new center, and with Hodgson and Roy, we can roll 3 legit scoring lines. As shown over the last few months, that formula can be successful.

Personally, if we are going to make 1 big splash this off season, I'd rather get Suter. Then move some excess D talent to upgrade our complementary forward depth.

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04-11-2012, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dire wolf View Post
You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment with the Roy talk. I'm sure Darcy will make a bunch of phone calls, but I'm also pretty sure he won't think any of the proposed deals send back enough value.

On the other hand, even if we stand pat with Roy, our center situation going into next season is completely different -- and substantially better -- than it was for most of this season. The idea of a contract-year Roy playing 3rd-line center and offering depth to hedge against injury makes sense. Would I like to land Getzlaf or Staal? Absolutely. But Ennis-Silent G- Roy down the middle is a lot better than Hecht-Roy-Goose/Leino.

Moving Ennis to center was the equivalent of making a big trade for a new center, and with Hodgson and Roy, we can roll 3 legit scoring lines. As shown over the last few months, that formula can be successful.

Personally, if we are going to make 1 big splash this off season, I'd rather get Suter. Then move some excess D talent to upgrade our complementary forward depth.
The thought of Suter, Myers, Ehrhoff, Sekera as our top 4 is drool worthy

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04-11-2012, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Sure it does. But saying what the player is at the moment is also part of it.
This is what I know about your opinion of Bobby Ryan
1. He's a 30-35 goal scorer
2. He's similar to Drew Stafford when he is on his game
3. He's not as physical as Jerome Iginla because he doesn't fight.

That's what he is at the moment, and that's what he will be correct?


Quote:
and you compared him to Iginla. OMG CRAZINESS!!

2nd season : 29 PIMs, 3 majors
3rd season : 58 PIMs, 4 majors
4th season : 26 PIMs, 2 Majors

2nd season : 81 PIMs, 1 Major
3rd season : 61 PIMs, 1 Major
4th season : 53 PIMs, 1 Major

I'm not really concerned about the desparity in fighting majors. and Im not claiming the Ryan is a guy that will throw down with heavies. The STYLE of game that's relevant are the power forward aspects to their games.


Quote:
Btw I compared him to Stafford on his game which would be last year's Stafford and the one we saw the last month and half this year. I would say thats pretty accurate.
I think it's a ridiculous comparison. Again, it's an attempt to minimize the value of a player for the sake of your argument while bringing nothing to the debate. What value do you bring to the argument by comparing him to a player who only shows up for a month or 2 of each season?

You said he's a 30-35 goal scorer, and then compared him to a guy who has scored more then 20 goals ONCE in the last 5 seasons.


Quote:
Who cares where he was picked and I already know all about his stats but thanks for passing them along.
That's right... ES goal scoring is only this BIG factor when defending Pominville or Briere, or putting down Vanek.


Quote:
You compared him to Iginla and I countered with who Iginla is and this is your response?
Who Iginla is? interesting, you never mentioned the words "leader", "Iron Man", "Sniper", "Power Forward".... all you mentioned was the fact that he drops the mits, and Ryan doesn't

Quote:
I guess its easier than accepting the fact that he isn't the same type of player Iginla is in terms of physical play.
Every physical aspect of their game is similar.... aside from dropping the gloves.


I guess the comparison has to be perfect.
Please provide a better comparison for a player 26 or under who you would compare to Jerome Iginla.

This player should have AT LEAST demonstrated a consistent high level of goal scoring, has bit time wheels, and play a physical brand of hockey (not Phil Kessel)

Quote:
I know this and I still don't see Ryan putting up the numbers Iginla did in his prime.
i dont really care about the numbers... even if you see NO growth in his production, he's still a 1st line, power forward, who's combination of goal scoring, skating, and physical play are comparable to the tools that Iginla had at his age.

Quote:
I'm glad to hear it but neither Vanek nor Hodgson are on the level of Getzlaf and Perry.
And no one on Buffalo is on the level of Ryan (especially not Stafford )





Quote:
You're trying too hard to frame me as some sort of Ryan hater. I'm not. The funny thing is if Ryan is the level of player you claim he is. Then why would the Ducks trade him to us for one year of Roy?
they would do it to get Brayden McNabb, while adding 1 year of that 2nd line center they need to get back to the playoffs, while creating some needed cap space to re-sign their 2 horses, and begin building around them again

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Old
04-11-2012, 05:04 PM
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I don't see the player you do Jame. So we will have to agree to disagree.

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04-11-2012, 05:08 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The thought of Suter, Myers, Ehrhoff, Sekera as our top 4 is drool worthy
but no one actually thinks we have a chance at signing Suter right?

With last year's experience, I'm afraid we will waste our time pursuing him, panic, and then give Alexander Sulzer a 6 year, 30 million dollar contract


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04-11-2012, 05:09 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I don't see the player you do Jame. So we will have to agree to disagree.
Would you trade 1 remaining year of Derek Roy for 1 remaining year of Jerome Iginla?

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04-11-2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
but no one actually thinks we have a chance at signing Suter right?

With last year's experience, I'm afraid we will waste our time pursuing him, panic, and then give Alexander Sulzer a 6 year, 30 million dollar contract





I don't think we have a chance at Suter unless we trade for his rights like we did with Ehrhoff.

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04-11-2012, 05:11 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Would you trade 1 remaining year of Derek Roy for 1 remaining year of Jerome Iginla?
You are relentlessly exhausting

to answer your question... NO.

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