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Old
05-06-2012, 11:02 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
But you're not getting a top 4 D. You've got a 5/6 D. And to keep him you're paying him $3M or even $4M.
I guarantee it that you can do better than Quincey for $3.5M on the open market.
You only list the high contracts.
And when you do that, you're not portraying an accurate depiction of the market.

One: Quincey does not replace Stuart. Quincey replaces Kindl or White.
Quincey is not going to be your PK rock. He's not going to be your tough physical minutes D.

I would have to believe Holland would trade a roster defenseman.
When was the last time that happened?

Has he ever traded a regular defenseman? Aaron Ward? Anders Ericsson?
I disagree, I think Quincey is a top4 quality D. He can log 20+ minutes a night, play in any situation, isn't shy about taking the body and blocking shots, and he's mobile with a decent pass. I think he's better than White, and we're paying White $3m.

Yeah, those are probably the last times. I thought Bowman pushed the Ward move, and for Ericsson we got Chelios back. If Boston offered us Chara for Kindl and a couple of firsts, I have to believe Kenny's paying Kindl's airfare to Boston.

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05-06-2012, 11:11 PM
  #52
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I hated moving a 1st for Quincey as much as anyone but what player that was moved at the Deadline actually woulda put the Wings over the top this year?

Not that Quincey is a great usage of a 1st round pick but using one for Gaustad, a 30+ Bottom 6 UFA aint much better. Kostitsyn, meh, maybe. Who else moved? Gill, Grossmann, Kubina? Probably don't make much of a difference if at all even though they cost less than Q.

Would we shoulda did if we couldn't move a 2nd or 3rd for Gaustad or someone than KH shoulda stayed put. I didn't see a problem with Smith, Kindl or Commie and what was the worst that could happen a 1st round exit? And we'd still have a 1st to show for it.

Again I wasn't totally against the Quincey acquisition but he is just not worth a 1st round pick. Had it been a 2nd or someone like Ferraro, etc I don't complain.


To the Nashville vs. Wings debate. If they don't come back vs. PHX and all those guys don't re-sign, then it looks bad. You can say "But they went further than us" but all that matters, at least in my opinion is winning the Cup.
At least Quincey is under team control whether he was worth it or not.
But then again, hindsight is 20/20.


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05-07-2012, 09:21 AM
  #53
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They lost 2 games with Radulov and AK in. Then they won 1/2 with Radulov and AK out. And you're claiming that it was a clear cut wrong move to bench them?

We don't know what might have happened in game 4 had the roster been different. Maybe they would have lost even worse. And if they did, we would all be blaming the decision to put the lazy floaters in the lineup instead of the guys who worked hard to win game 3.

If we had AK and it put us in Nashville's position right now, how would that help us? Why is it better to win the first round and get embarrassed in the 2nd? I wouldn't be any happier.

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05-07-2012, 10:21 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I disagree, I think Quincey is a top4 quality D. He can log 20+ minutes a night, play in any situation, isn't shy about taking the body and blocking shots, and he's mobile with a decent pass. I think he's better than White, and we're paying White $3m.

Yeah, those are probably the last times. I thought Bowman pushed the Ward move, and for Ericsson we got Chelios back. If Boston offered us Chara for Kindl and a couple of firsts, I have to believe Kenny's paying Kindl's airfare to Boston.
Fine. he's a top 4 defenseman on a team that's crappy.
And if the Wings lose Lidstrom and Stuart next year and go with
Kronwall/White/Quincey/Ericsson/Smith/Kindl --- Well maybe Q's back to being a top 4 defenseman on a crappy team.

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05-07-2012, 12:32 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post

Regardless...I think Don Cherry hit the nail on the head. Benching Radulov and Kostitsyn was a bad move. It doesn't punish the guys who broke curfew. It punishes the entire team.

There's got to be a way to make examples of these guys without jeopardizing what you've worked for.
There are two options. One, make an example out of them and risk losing in the playoffs for one season. Or let them play and send the message that bad behavior isn't tolerated, unless the games are critical, then you can do what you want.

One attitude gets you a slight chance for one season, the other will be hated at the moment but will net positive results long term. Sometimes we go too gaga over one playoff season and lose sight of what's important.

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05-07-2012, 03:59 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Fine. he's a top 4 defenseman on a team that's crappy.
And if the Wings lose Lidstrom and Stuart next year and go with
Kronwall/White/Quincey/Ericsson/Smith/Kindl --- Well maybe Q's back to being a top 4 defenseman on a crappy team.
How do you feel about the Rangers, Devils, Capitols, and Coyote bluelines?

They didn't look so hot on paper going into this season. In fact, do any of them other than the Coyotes have a serious #1 defender?

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05-07-2012, 07:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
How do you feel about the Rangers, Devils, Capitols, and Coyote bluelines?

They didn't look so hot on paper going into this season. In fact, do any of them other than the Coyotes have a serious #1 defender?
NYR have a really talented blueline- before the season, sure they had some questions, but I think they have one of the top D corps in the league. They have 3 guys (Staal, Girardi, McDonagh) who would instantly be our #2 next to Lids, and take over the #1 gig when Nick retires. Hell, going into the playoffs, I would have traded our top 6 D for theirs w/out a second thought.

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05-07-2012, 08:00 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
How do you feel about the Rangers, Devils, Capitols, and Coyote bluelines?

They didn't look so hot on paper going into this season. In fact, do any of them other than the Coyotes have a serious #1 defender?
capitals
-carlson
-alzner
-green
-wideman

all say hi

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05-07-2012, 09:10 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
capitals
-carlson
-alzner
-green
-wideman

all say hi
Which one is the #1? All good defenceman, but there's no Chara, Pronger, Lidstrom etc. in that group.

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05-07-2012, 09:58 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
capitals
-carlson
-alzner
-green
-wideman

all say hi
Alzner, Carlson & Green are imo all really good #2/3s and the fact that you lumped Wideman in with those guys shows that you haven't seen very many capital games. He is an all out offensive defenceman and I would not want him anywhere near the wings, he makes just as many stupid plays as he makes good ones. Overall though the Caps top 3 is better then ours but our top 6 defenceman are better then theres.

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05-07-2012, 10:28 PM
  #61
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Wideman is an idiot. Do not want, as i've said before. He sucks

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05-07-2012, 10:53 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
This keeps getting said and it doesn't make much sense.
This was essentially a rental trade, because this offseason, we could sign any UFA defenseman we want.

Quincey isn't some prize we got locked up. We paid a first round pick to upgrade on Kindl.

The end result is that we lost like twice as many games with Quincey in the lineup as we won.

It didn't help us at all.
Unless we're holding a gun to his head, we can't just sign anyone we want. Quincey was insurance, to make sure that we have someone competent(and better than this forum will give him credit for) replacing Stu when he leaves. Holland didn't get to where he is winging it on the hope that someone will be available.

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05-07-2012, 11:44 PM
  #63
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Nashville gave up quite a bit to lose in the second round.

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05-07-2012, 11:47 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Rice View Post
Nashville gave up quite a bit to lose in the second round.
Yeah Wings only gave up a first to lose in the first round.

Atleast Quincy will still be here next season for the Wings though. Preds might lose all of their rentals and a top pairing dman.

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05-07-2012, 11:48 PM
  #65
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Nashville gave up quite a bit to lose in the second round.
Sure did, Poile had better re-sign some of those FA's or fans will be calling for his head.

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05-07-2012, 11:48 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Unless we're holding a gun to his head, we can't just sign anyone we want. Quincey was insurance, to make sure that we have someone competent(and better than this forum will give him credit for) replacing Stu when he leaves. Holland didn't get to where he is winging it on the hope that someone will be available.
GM critics always say, "I would have signed this guy..." As if it's always possible.

We have no idea if Hannan was interested in being the potential #7 guy on our roster splitting time with Kindl. But I'll be damned if his name isn't brought up every.damn.time.

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05-08-2012, 08:53 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
GM critics always say, "I would have signed this guy..." As if it's always possible.
I hate that too. Way too many variables involved.

It's not like its NHL 12 or Fantasy where you can just say "I want so and so" and just go sign him.

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05-08-2012, 01:19 PM
  #68
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Which one is the #1? All good defenceman, but there's no Chara, Pronger, Lidstrom etc. in that group.
lidstrom is 710 years old, he factors none whatsoever in our plans beyond day to day, when he is gone, which 100% guarnteed will happen, we will also be stuck with no #1 dman and be left with an over 30 kronwall and 3 or 4 bottom pairing dmen plus someone unknowns.

green, alzner and carlsson are all 26 and under

as for the guy who knocked widemen, i have seen enough of him and white or ericsson over their entire careers, not just one season, to know i take widemen any day of the week over either of them

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05-08-2012, 01:28 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Yeah Wings only gave up a first to lose in the first round.

Atleast Quincy will still be here next season for the Wings though. Preds might lose all of their rentals and a top pairing dman.
Let's think about it like this. This is from memory so correct me if I'm wrong, but Nashville gave up a first round pick last year, and a first, second and third this year....for basically Hal Gill, Mike Fisher and Paul Gaustad.

And we're upset that we spent one first rounder on Kyle Quincey?

Wake up guys. Nashville gambled big and lost even bigger. They might've just pissed away their future trying to keep their present, and won only two rounds. And they'll probably lose their best two players soon.

And we're mad that we lost one first round pick? On a guy who is excellent insurance once Stu leaves?

We can't see the forest for the trees here...

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05-08-2012, 01:49 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
lidstrom is 710 years old, he factors none whatsoever in our plans beyond day to day, when he is gone, which 100% guarnteed will happen, we will also be stuck with no #1 dman and be left with an over 30 kronwall and 3 or 4 bottom pairing dmen plus someone unknowns.

green, alzner and carlsson are all 26 and under

as for the guy who knocked widemen, i have seen enough of him and white or ericsson over their entire careers, not just one season, to know i take widemen any day of the week over either of them
Of course Lidstrom will be gone eventually? Thats like guaranteeing the sun will rise in the morning and fall in the evening. Everyone retires eventually. I'm not sure what it has to do with him being a #1 defenceman though. I guess you believe to be a #1 guy you have to be under 30?

I was asking which one of those 4, you consider Washington's #1 guy, yet somehow you twisted your answer into a bash on the Wings and Lidstrom. Washington doesn't have a stand out guy like Pronger, Lidstrom or Chara. They have 4 very good defenceman, but nobody that is unquestionably the go to guy.
Green is the only one who's ever been nominated for the Norris and he's been a shell of that player ever since.

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05-08-2012, 02:00 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Let's think about it like this. This is from memory so correct me if I'm wrong, but Nashville gave up a first round pick last year, and a first, second and third this year....for basically Hal Gill, Mike Fisher and Paul Gaustad.

And we're upset that we spent one first rounder on Kyle Quincey?

Wake up guys. Nashville gambled big and lost even bigger. They might've just pissed away their future trying to keep their present, and won only two rounds. And they'll probably lose their best two players soon.

And we're mad that we lost one first round pick? On a guy who is excellent insurance once Stu leaves?

We can't see the forest for the trees here...
are we always accustomed to trying to find the good no matter what in everything?

some sort of silver lining garbage?

this is bordering on being as dumb as leaf and habs fans who bash sens fans claiming that since the Sens didnt win the cup, just like the habs and leafs didnt, that they're better off since they each have lottery picks later this spring as though thats the goal

the Preds went for it because they have a desire to win, they gambled, won a round and lost.

the wings took a conservative approach, essentially saying not this year, then gave away a top 20 1st rd pick(or the definition of not this year as all prospects are not this year players) for an at best, average bottom pairing dman, who will be paid no less then 3 million to do so, who has already repeatedly proven elsewhere he isnt good enough and been dumped to the curb along the way.

if quincey was solely about long term why not keep the pick, use that top 20 pick on a dman(or the highest player we have earned in 20 years and let him develop in our system untill he is ready) and go out a sign a couple UFA dmen this summer?

brillant asset mgmt

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05-08-2012, 03:26 PM
  #72
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yes nashville traded away picks, so did we and thats a fact.
we lost to them in the first round, thats a fact. i dont need to make myself feel better by rationalizing the quincey move and degrading another team to make myself feel superior.
No Nashville traded away picks...plural, we traded away a pick....singular.

This thread is about re-visiting the trade deadline and evaluating those trades now that the season is over for us. Only a Holland hater would continue to argue that Nashvilles moves were better for the Predators than Hollands 2 trades were for the Wings. Especially if Poile doesn't re-sign any of the 3.

If anyone is trying to make themselves feel superior its probably the guy claiming other fans sound like little girls.

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what team in the playoffs right now have worse players in their bottom pairing that they gave up a 20th overall pick for? which ones exactly? Phoenix, is that who we are comparing ourselves to, no no no, it was edmonton and theo peckam, or wait nope, it was Minnesota...
What does the payment for Quincey have to do with him being better than most teams bottom 6 defenceman? Every team left in the playoffs has at least 1 defenceman on their roster that Quincey is better than, some multiple. If anything it speaks to Detroit's defensive depth.

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stop sitting on your thumb all day, nobody is blaming quincey, i could care less if his name was quincey or jones or smith or whoever, he isnt going to ask you out on a date so get over it. i just find it so funny how when you have nothing else going for yourself you rag on team who did better to try and find fault to justify your teams actions, pathetic and one day when you're a man you will figure that out.
What else are we supposed to be doing in the Re-visit the trade deadline thread? not all of us feel like bashing Holland in every thread.

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hermit fan? i have been a wings fan for 30 plus years, i have seen everything from bad to good to great to good, i didnt just become a fan when the russian five came about

get over yourself...
Is this an example of not making yourself feel more superior?

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05-08-2012, 03:36 PM
  #73
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No Nashville traded away picks...plural, we traded away a pick....singular.

This thread is about re-visiting the trade deadline and evaluating those trades now that the season is over for us. Only a Holland hater would continue to argue that Nashvilles moves were better for the Predators than Hollands 2 trades were for the Wings. Especially if Poile doesn't re-sign any of the 3.

If anyone is trying to make themselves feel superior its probably the guy claiming other fans sound like little girls.


What does the payment for Quincey have to do with him being better than most teams bottom 6 defenceman? Every team left in the playoffs has at least 1 defenceman on their roster that Quincey is better than, some multiple. If anything it speaks to Detroit's defensive depth.



What else are we supposed to be doing in the Re-visit the trade deadline thread? not all of us feel like bashing Holland in every thread.

Is this an example of not making yourself feel more superior?
wouldnt the concept of revisiting a trade deadline thread with the intent to say "see i told you so" or "glad we didnt do what nashville did" be the ultimate definition of an attempt to feel superior after the fact?

i dont give two shi... what nashville did, i care what holland did or does or hasent done

when the moves holland does dont work out immediately as planned, i dont go looking for more favourable comparables to justify hollands actions and make them look less poor

i dont care how many picks the preds traded away, all i care about is the pick we traded away and the player we got in return

i am sorry, but i do not feel quincey was a brillant, fantastic, out of this world move. if their was nothng available at the deadline to provide the offensive depth the coach repeatedly begged for, or the necessary gritty playoff warrior we so desperately needed, i said then and i say now, we were better off doing nothing and retaining our draft pick to continue to stock our cupboard

yes i 100% believe for a fact you can get a quincey equivalent player at any point during a season or off-season so why the push as proven beyond a doubt by the fact HE himself has been made availabe 4 times in the last 4 years

furthermore i merely responded to the accusation of being a "hermit," its always best to read all the posts from first to last in the future..

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05-08-2012, 03:46 PM
  #74
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Nashville was the most aggressive team at the deadline, and the most common complaint about Holland was that he wasn't aggressive enough.

If its perfectly fine for you to make yourself feel more superior by pointing out Holland's faults and comparing him to other GM's and their moves, why do you have such a problem with fans pointing out when he was right by comparing them to the same teams? Seems to me you only have a problem with it when it proves you wrong.

and I'm not defending GentlemanMasher personal shot at you, I was just pointing out the irony of you then doing the exact thing you were complaining about. Certainly we can discuss the trade deadline without hurling insults at eachother.

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05-08-2012, 04:01 PM
  #75
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Nashville was the most aggressive team at the deadline, and the most common complaint about Holland was that he wasn't aggressive enough.

If its perfectly fine for you to make yourself feel more superior by pointing out Holland's faults and comparing him to other GM's and their moves, why do you have such a problem with fans pointing out when he was right by comparing them to the same teams? Seems to me you only have a problem with it when it proves you wrong.

and I'm not defending GentlemanMasher personal shot at you, I was just pointing out the irony of you then doing the exact thing you were complaining about. Certainly we can discuss the trade deadline without hurling insults at eachother.
first, i dont agree that he was right because i dont agree with the player he picked up for the pick he gave away and i have said why.

second, i am not a holland hater, i am simply not a holland apologist. i feel it was the wrong move because i have always thought it was the wrong move. i wasnt against it at first only to chnage my tune later on when comparing it to other teams(in this case nashville), i have always thougt it was wrong from day one

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