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Old
05-08-2012, 04:34 PM
  #76
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You came into a thread where the OP was comparing Poiles deadline moves from this year to Hollands and tried to change the purpose of it to point out every time Holland has made bad deadline deals in the past.

You manage to sneak a dig in on Holland in tons of threads around here and I've never read you write a single positive thing about him, how is a reasonable person supposed to perceive you as anything but a Holland hater.

There's nothing wrong with that, if everyone here shared the same opinion on everything it would be a boring place to post.

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05-08-2012, 04:42 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
You came into a thread where the OP was comparing Poiles deadline moves from this year to Hollands and tried to change the purpose of it to point out every time Holland has made bad deadline deals in the past.

You manage to sneak a dig in on Holland in tons of threads around here and I've never read you write a single positive thing about him, how is a reasonable person supposed to perceive you as anything but a Holland hater.

There's nothing wrong with that, if everyone here shared the same opinion on everything it would be a boring place to post.
I've always believed that the Holland bashers around here wouldn't be satisfied even if we won the Cup every single year.

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05-08-2012, 04:46 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
You came into a thread where the OP was comparing Poiles deadline moves from this year to Hollands and tried to change the purpose of it to point out every time Holland has made bad deadline deals in the past.

You manage to sneak a dig in on Holland in tons of threads around here and I've never read you write a single positive thing about him, how is a reasonable person supposed to perceive you as anything but a Holland hater.

There's nothing wrong with that, if everyone here shared the same opinion on everything it would be a boring place to post.
sorry, i thought th OP started the thread to dig at the poster who didnt agree with the moves holland made, with the point being to justify those against the backdrop of kostitsyn and polies play/decisions . this seemed very much like a "yah, well at least we didnt do this or that" as oppossed to discussing exactly why the trade for quincey was a brillant move.

that is why i commented and said now look it, we too have made bold deadline moves only to not win the cup which turned into accusations of i ahte holland or i love the predators

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05-08-2012, 05:20 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
sorry, i thought th OP started the thread to dig at the poster who didnt agree with the moves holland made, with the point being to justify those against the backdrop of kostitsyn and polies play/decisions . this seemed very much like a "yah, well at least we didnt do this or that" as oppossed to discussing exactly why the trade for quincey was a brillant move.

that is why i commented and said now look it, we too have made bold deadline moves only to not win the cup which turned into accusations of i ahte holland or i love the predators
If the thread was about discussing whether the Quincey trade was a brilliant move the OP would have said that.

He didn't mention him at all. You brought Quincey into it when someone pointed out that Holland would get roasted for making the moves Poile did.

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05-08-2012, 05:35 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
If the thread was about discussing whether the Quincey trade was a brilliant move the OP would have said that.

He didn't mention him at all. You brought Quincey into it when someone pointed out that Holland would get roasted for making the moves Poile did.
what was the point of the thread?

it seems very clear it was to dig at the guy who thought holland didnt do very well at the deadline, in comparision to the preds, and the op wanted to know what he thought now of how well the preds did that day, sort of to say, "now what do you have to say."

i brought up quincey, if it was me, to show that we too dont always make brillant deadline day moves either, to which others pounced on claiming it was a deadline day move solely for the future, not this years playoffs but those to come, to which i disagree with that notion, claiming that quincey helped us very little this year and if its long term we're talking, i dont agree giving up a top 20 pick for him helps in that regard either as a player like quincey can be had at anytime

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05-08-2012, 05:45 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post

yes nashville traded away picks, so did we and thats a fact.
We traded away one first rounder, something we almost never do. They blew 2 of them plus a second and a third. 4. In two seasons.

Yet we're horrible. Right.

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we lost to them in the first round, thats a fact. i dont need to make myself feel better by rationalizing the quincey move and degrading another team to make myself feel superior.
No one's doing that. We're pointing out how you're not making any sense.

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what team in the playoffs right now have worse players in their bottom pairing that they gave up a 20th overall pick for? which ones exactly? Phoenix, is that who we are comparing ourselves to, no no no, it was edmonton and theo peckam, or wait nope, it was Minnesota...
What, were you just banking and hoping I wouldn't mention anyone? You want Lilja back? How about Peter Harrold? Or Alex Martinez?

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stop sitting on your thumb all day, nobody is blaming quincey, i could care less if his name was quincey or jones or smith or whoever, he isnt going to ask you out on a date so get over it. i just find it so funny how when you have nothing else going for yourself you rag on team who did better to try and find fault to justify your teams actions, pathetic and one day when you're a man you will figure that out.
LOL I just wonder if you actually believe any of that crap. You just look like you have an agenda and are trying to come off a certain way, not like you actually genuinely believe what you're saying. If you've been a fan for 30 years and still have this attitude, that's sad. But I don't think that was true at all so whatever.

You're trying to say spending one first round pick on a long term defenseman, to replace one who is leaving, is worse than blowing 4 high picks to get worse players when the odds were high you were going to lose two of your best guys.

Somehow I think if we pissed away two firsts, a second and a third when we were pretty well going to lose two awesome defensemen, you'd go nuclear and would hate Ken Holland forever. I asked you a question and you ducked the alternative-we can't just sign whomever we please whenever we want to. Quincey was an insurance policy, and a pretty good one. Hell just look at Gaustad and Quincey-one can play top 4 D pretty well, play on the PP, PK and not look out of place. The other is a sub-20 point scoring minus player who sits on the third line. Even if Nashville doesn't waste three other valuable picks trying desperately to keep players who are likely leaving now, they still had much worse management than us. Ours wasn't even bad. It was a smart move and you're not even trying to say why it wasn't.

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05-08-2012, 05:54 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
going to lose two awesome defensemen
you know this how? this is based on .......

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05-08-2012, 06:01 PM
  #83
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The idea is that they know they're resigning them about as much as anyone else, yet they blew 4 picks.

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05-08-2012, 06:03 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
We traded away one first rounder, something we almost never do. They blew 2 of them plus a second and a third. 4. In two seasons.

Yet we're horrible. Right.


No one's doing that. We're pointing out how you're not making any sense.


What, were you just banking and hoping I wouldn't mention anyone? You want Lilja back? How about Peter Harrold? Or Alex Martinez?


LOL I just wonder if you actually believe any of that crap. You just look like you have an agenda and are trying to come off a certain way, not like you actually genuinely believe what you're saying. If you've been a fan for 30 years and still have this attitude, that's sad. But I don't think that was true at all so whatever.

You're trying to say spending one first round pick on a long term defenseman, to replace one who is leaving, is worse than blowing 4 high picks to get worse players when the odds were high you were going to lose two of your best guys.

Somehow I think if we pissed away two firsts, a second and a third when we were pretty well going to lose two awesome defensemen, you'd go nuclear and would hate Ken Holland forever. I asked you a question and you ducked the alternative-we can't just sign whomever we please whenever we want to. Quincey was an insurance policy, and a pretty good one. Hell just look at Gaustad and Quincey-one can play top 4 D pretty well, play on the PP, PK and not look out of place. The other is a sub-20 point scoring minus player who sits on the third line. Even if Nashville doesn't waste three other valuable picks trying desperately to keep players who are likely leaving now, they still had much worse management than us. Ours wasn't even bad. It was a smart move and you're not even trying to say why it wasn't.
and here i thought i did

i said trading a top 20 pick for kyle quincey was wrong on two parts

a) as a trade deadline move for a playoff team it did not help one bit, in particular because he isnt the type of dman we needed at the time nor was he the type of player we needed whatsoever. our coach and every single nhl anaylst who had a mic put in his face said our weakneses was not our D, but rather our depth up front and in particular our size and speed

b)as a long term move, if thats more of what some are now claiming, then i dont see it making sense because
i) a top 20 pick, our highest pick in two decades(apart from a lottery free for all) would do us more favours down the line whether we kept the pick or used it to trade up, moreoever
ii) quincey himself is not a very good player in my opinion, as well as that of several NHL GM's who have felt the same each and every year the past four seasons. Does he replace stuart well? our best shutdown, our more conservative dman over the last few years? well i dont think he does that role very well. Is he an elite puck moving ppqb ready to take a top 2 spot if lidstrom retires? no i dont think he is suited very well for that role. is he really an insurance policy if either of those players leave and fills either role? are players of his calibre available for free at free agency, yes i would think so. Are players of simmilar skill set to quincey available every year, well i would say since he has been made available 3 times in the last four years then yes i would say so.

he is either a useless trade deadline pickup for a team short on forward depth in particular size and speed, or

he is a very average dman not suited to fill either of our current UFA dmen's roles, the type of dmen who is always available of which several are this summer as it stands today via free agency for simmiliar money, and, who cost us a top 20 pick.

and thats why i dont care to harp on the preds because really what they do that dosent work dosent concern me, it should only concern their fans

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05-08-2012, 06:11 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
and here i thought i did

i said trading a top 20 pick for kyle quincey was wrong on two parts

a) as a trade deadline move for a playoff team it did not help one bit, in particular because he isnt the type of dman we needed at the time nor was he the type of player we needed whatsoever. our coach and every single nhl anaylst who had a mic put in his face said our weakneses was not our D, but rather our depth up front and in particular our size and speed
This would make sense if the NHL was shutting down forever after this season. It's not, and we're going to have a big hole to fill when Stu leaves. And given the state of the cap, the floor and other desperate teams, he opted to ensure he had a very good player rather than gamble and potentially get no one in return.

If we can use a first round pick in the type of long term you're describing, then use any of the upcoming ones since you're talking about getting a guy who we won't use for a long time. We needed to replace Stu and we were proactive. If Kenny did nothing and got no one next offseason, we'd be wishing he traded for someone. And here's the kicker-he can trade Quincey. His value didn't diminish at all, he can send him away and sign someone else.

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ii) quincey himself is not a very good player in my opinion, as well as that of several NHL GM's who have felt the same each and every year the past four seasons.
Oh quit it with that self important crap. I could easily say someone valued him enough to make him a #1 starter. Or I could spin any set of circumstances to make it sound like a player isn't valued by other GMs. Doesn't make it true and I don't remember anyone making it in any way obvious they didn't want the guy. Go look at some of the jobbers that are occupying roster spots for current teams, nevermind playoff teams in general or even contenders.

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Does he replace stuart well? our best shutdown, our more conservative dman over the last few years? well i dont think he does that role very well.
You vs Ken Holland. Yeah, gonna vote for Kenny, sorry.

Your whole argument sounds flimsy when you try desperately to paint Quincey as this run of the mill useless defenseman when he was one of the few who actually busted his ass and did very well. You're listening to the hfboards groupthink too much. With your attitude, you could stand to concern yourself with every other team in the league. Gain a clear perspective of actual poor management, not what your narrow hermit point of view dictates to be poor.

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05-08-2012, 06:43 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
This would make sense if the NHL was shutting down forever after this season. It's not, and we're going to have a big hole to fill when Stu leaves. And given the state of the cap, the floor and other desperate teams, he opted to ensure he had a very good player rather than gamble and potentially get no one in return.

If we can use a first round pick in the type of long term you're describing, then use any of the upcoming ones since you're talking about getting a guy who we won't use for a long time. We needed to replace Stu and we were proactive. If Kenny did nothing and got no one next offseason, we'd be wishing he traded for someone. And here's the kicker-he can trade Quincey. His value didn't diminish at all, he can send him away and sign someone else.


Oh quit it with that self important crap. I could easily say someone valued him enough to make him a #1 starter. Or I could spin any set of circumstances to make it sound like a player isn't valued by other GMs. Doesn't make it true and I don't remember anyone making it in any way obvious they didn't want the guy. Go look at some of the jobbers that are occupying roster spots for current teams, nevermind playoff teams in general or even contenders.


You vs Ken Holland. Yeah, gonna vote for Kenny, sorry.

Your whole argument sounds flimsy when you try desperately to paint Quincey as this run of the mill useless defenseman when he was one of the few who actually busted his ass and did very well. You're listening to the hfboards groupthink too much. With your attitude, you could stand to concern yourself with every other team in the league. Gain a clear perspective of actual poor management, not what your narrow hermit point of view dictates to be poor.
1. perhaps you dont understand the concept of a playoff addition and are molding the now with the later.

the now is the guy who helps you now. he is the guy GM's pick up to help them this year in this years payoffs to help with a weakness to this years team, to give them that missing piece and to go for it.

the later guy, or the "the league isnt shutting down this year player" helps you later. i very clearly said how i felt he didnt help in either situation

who could you say valued him enough to make him a #1 starter? who is that person.

hey perhaps i am wrong but to me when several teams in such a short period of time, including our own, pass the guy over then that should, and usually does, say something about that player. thats not spin doctoring or fabricating an arguement its reality, attempting to cicumvent that with hypothetical "self important" garbage is simply trying to manufacture an arguement. why did detroit, la and colorado all get rid of the guy, is it because they loved him so much they wanted others to share in their joy?

one of few who busted his as for five games, what does that matter and what kind of sample is that anyhow? if he wasnt, would you be turning on him and saying what a bad move it was?

did i say useless? again why make things up, i said average, an average dman, ones who are available all the time, not particularly good at anything but available.

i agree 100% with the concept of not waiting till free agency to fill holes, stuart or lidstrom or both. i simply dont see how Quincey fills either of those holes.

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05-08-2012, 06:51 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
1. perhaps you dont understand the concept of a playoff addition and are molding the now with the later.

the now is the guy who helps you now. he is the guy GM's pick up to help them this year in this years payoffs to help with a weakness to this years team, to give them that missing piece and to go for it.
Thanks for describing the concept, we all needed that. Do you always become this smug when questioned?

The "help you now" guys were costing an arm and a leg. Nashville went after a few of those guys and are going to pay a huge price for it. Quincey gave us help later, and in addition helped us this season. Don't say he didn't, because he was better than Kindl or Smith and earned more time.

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who could you say valued him enough to make him a #1 starter? who is that person.
Everyone in the Avs organization.

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hey perhaps i am wrong but to me when several teams in such a short period of time, including our own, pass the guy over then that should, and usually does, say something about that player.
What did it say about Ian White? Sometimes looks are deceiving and bouncing teams doesn't automatically equal anything bad.

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thats not spin doctoring or fabricating an arguement its reality, attempting to cicumvent that with hypothetical "self important" garbage is simply trying to manufacture an arguement. why did detroit, la and colorado all get rid of the guy, is it because they loved him so much they wanted others to share in their joy?
One of them didn't even want to in the first place, and another was rebuilding and did what they had to do. Why are you asking me, why not go find out for yourself since you clearly don't already know.

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one of few who busted his as for five games, what does that matter and what kind of sample is that anyhow?
Oh I'm sorry, I thought you wanted a "help us now" kind of player. Yet now his sample size is too small.

Which is it? Cue you trying to talk your way out of this one in five...

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did i say useless? again why make things up, i said average, an average dman, ones who are available all the time, not particularly good at anything but available.
Yeah top four defenseman who play in every scenario are available all the time. Keep saying stuff like this, it makes you look like a genius.

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i agree 100% with the concept of not waiting till free agency to fill holes, stuart or lidstrom or both. i simply dont see how Quincey fills either of those holes.
Because he's far better than you're giving him credit for. You're looking for all these answers to the general question of "WHY?". Wonder why you're so confused and baffled? Because the only true answer is the one you're denying-that Quincey isn't just average.

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05-08-2012, 06:55 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
as a long term move, if thats more of what some are now claiming, then i dont see it making sense because
i) a top 20 pick, our highest pick in two decades(apart from a lottery free for all) would do us more favours down the line whether we kept the pick or used it to trade up, moreoever
ii) quincey himself is not a very good player in my opinion
he is either a useless trade deadline pickup for a team short on forward depth in particular size and speed, or

he is a very average dman not suited to fill either of our current UFA dmen's roles, the type of dmen who is always available of which several are this summer as it stands today via free agency for simmiliar money, and, who cost us a top 20 pick.

and thats why i dont care to harp on the preds because really what they do that dosent work dosent concern me, it should only concern their fans
After saying all that, how can you with a straight face advocate we trade for Jay Boumeester.

He will cost us more than a first, is older, puts up the roughly the same amount of pts a season as Quincey, has far worse +/-, gets paid more than double and is a far less physical player?

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05-08-2012, 07:05 PM
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After saying all that, how can you with a straight face advocate we trade for Jay Boumeester.

He will cost us more than a first, is older, puts up the roughly the same amount of pts a season as Quincey, has far worse +/-, gets paid more than double and is a far less physical player?
bouwmeester is a top 2 dman on just about any team in the league, including ours.

he plays more mins in all situations then almost any player in the league

he is never hurt

can skate and carry the puck

has three 40 plus pt seasons under his belt

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05-08-2012, 07:14 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
bouwmeester is a top 2 dman on just about any team in the league, including ours.

he plays more mins in all situations then almost any player in the league

he is never hurt

can skate and carry the puck

has three 40 plus pt seasons under his belt
Hits less and has worse +/-? Paid more than double?

Nah, we can just ignore all that.

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05-08-2012, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
bouwmeester is a top 2 dman on just about any team in the league, including ours.

he plays more mins in all situations then almost any player in the league

he is never hurt

can skate and carry the puck

has three 40 plus pt seasons under his belt
numbersstatsnumbersstatsnumbersstats.

Bouwmeester sucks. I live in Calgary, I have the great fortune of watching the guy more than I'd like to and he is crap. You call Quincey average and say he has no spot here, yet you covet Jay Bouwmeester. Me thinks you're not actually watching or properly evaluating the guys you're judging.

But we could go ahead and get Bouwmeester. Just prepare for a guy who will always hesitate to shoot and when he does it's a harmless routine save. You can also expect him to barely ever hit anyone, especially going from a tougher team to one like ours. Then get ready for him to need a GPS to stay in position in his own end. And here's the best part-his confidence sucks. He can't score a goal and is afraid to shoot and that's when everything's even keel-just wait until the going gets rough. He'll start showing up on a lot of highlight reels for all the wrong reasons.

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05-08-2012, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Thanks for describing the concept, we all needed that. Do you always become this smug when questioned?

The "help you now" guys were costing an arm and a leg. Nashville went after a few of those guys and are going to pay a huge price for it. Quincey gave us help later, and in addition helped us this season. Don't say he didn't, because he was better than Kindl or Smith and earned more time.


Everyone in the Avs organization.


What did it say about Ian White? Sometimes looks are deceiving and bouncing teams doesn't automatically equal anything bad.


One of them didn't even want to in the first place, and another was rebuilding and did what they had to do. Why are you asking me, why not go find out for yourself since you clearly don't already know.


Oh I'm sorry, I thought you wanted a "help us now" kind of player. Yet now his sample size is too small.

Which is it? Cue you trying to talk your way out of this one in five...


Yeah top four defenseman who play in every scenario are available all the time. Keep saying stuff like this, it makes you look like a genius.


Because he's far better than you're giving him credit for. You're looking for all these answers to the general question of "WHY?". Wonder why you're so confused and baffled? Because the only true answer is the one you're denying-that Quincey isn't just average.
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Hits less and has worse +/-? Paid more than double?

Nah, we can just ignore all that.
well you cant argue that he gets paid more, or hits less so yah i agree

plus/minus though usually has alot to do with more then just one player and i am not sure on detroit jaybo would be a minus 21

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05-08-2012, 07:36 PM
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In his case, the plus minus is pretty accurate.

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05-08-2012, 07:47 PM
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[QUOTE=GentlemanMasher;49458595]

numbersstatsnumbersstatsnumbersstats.QUOTE]

hahah as funny as that is, i merely responded to the guy who exclusively talked about stats(hits, plus/minus, etc)

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05-08-2012, 08:29 PM
  #95
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In his case, the plus minus is pretty accurate.
This.

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05-08-2012, 09:10 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
bouwmeester is a top 2 dman on just about any team in the league, including ours.

he plays more mins in all situations then almost any player in the league

he is never hurt

can skate and carry the puck

has three 40 plus pt seasons under his belt
Quincey can skate and carry the puck too, and if you're going to celebrate Bouwmeester for playing more minutes and more situations shouldn't he be scoring at a higher rate than a "3rd pairing at best average defenceman"? If you gave Quincey the same minutes that Bouwmeester plays, I wouldn't be surprised if Quincey out scored him.

Normally +/- is a misleading stat but when you are far worse than every other defenceman on your team and you're the highest scoring D-Man. I think its a good sign that you're not all that good defensively.

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05-09-2012, 06:57 AM
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Quincey can skate and carry the puck too, and if you're going to celebrate Bouwmeester for playing more minutes and more situations shouldn't he be scoring at a higher rate than a "3rd pairing at best average defenceman"? If you gave Quincey the same minutes that Bouwmeester plays, I wouldn't be surprised if Quincey out scored him.

Normally +/- is a misleading stat but when you are far worse than every other defenceman on your team and you're the highest scoring D-Man. I think its a good sign that you're not all that good defensively.
if he was a -21 every year i would agree with you 100%, but he hasent been the last 4 or 5 years as he has been a -2, -4, -1 type dman which isnt bad at all when playing all game long on either the leagues doormat(florida) or a non-playoff team(calgary) during those years.

pesonally i am more astounded about players(not saying anyone in particular but more in general) who are minus players who play for top seeded playoff teams, lets say those who get 100pts or more, to me thats more telling.

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05-09-2012, 07:28 AM
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Give Quincey Bouwmeester minutes and I guarantee you'll find Quincey to be the better player.

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05-09-2012, 07:34 AM
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Give Quincey Bouwmeester minutes and I guarantee you'll find Quincey to be the better player.
maybe,

i tend to think you give bouwmeester not a bottom feeder team and you will see that plus/minus corrected and the points take off

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05-09-2012, 08:26 AM
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I've always believed that the Holland bashers around here wouldn't be satisfied even if we won the Cup every single year.
Yeah, that's exactly how I'd be

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