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Pierre Gauthier didnít like Ryan McDonagh

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Old
05-07-2012, 06:35 PM
  #176
poetryinmotion
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Or maybe he's helping his team be a winning team by eating some minuets and being very steady? Why does he have to be solely a product of a winning team instead of being a big time contributor to it? We lost a guy who would be a top 4 for right away. With the possibility of becoming a top 2. While some would suggest that Subban is ahead of him or whatever, you can be sure that in a last minute when we have the lead, if you have a choice between McDo and Subban, you'd go with McDo. But then chances are that if you trail by 1, you will indeed use Subban.

I really had no idea that we had to have a limit as to how many good d-men we can have on a team. I mean, we better not draft any d-men this year...hey we have all those young studs coming. I mean, I don't know but people who thinks that way are surely fans of "drafting by needs" 'caus if you end up drafting the BPA and you end up this year with 2 or 3 more d-men....where in the world will we do with all those d-men???? Come on. McDonagh has a great value. And can only become better as his career progresses. But somehow, we're fine. I guess that's the reason why Timmins was pissed off about the trade. I mean, you can't trust the guy immensely and call him the greatest evaluator ever, and not take into consideration that he was pissed off when he learned about the trade.
I'd go with either. They are both good shut down defensemen. This year or last year, Subban was on the ice for "the win" or for "the shutdown". How can you say that McDonagh is better at it? I mean sure, he is a shutdown defenseman, but he gets called that because he doesn't have much of an offensive game, or at least didn't prove it yet. Subban is good at shutting down but he will also burn you offensively if you're not careful.

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05-07-2012, 07:18 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I'd go with either. They are both good shut down defensemen. This year or last year, Subban was on the ice for "the win" or for "the shutdown". How can you say that McDonagh is better at it? I mean sure, he is a shutdown defenseman, but he gets called that because he doesn't have much of an offensive game, or at least didn't prove it yet. Subban is good at shutting down but he will also burn you offensively if you're not careful.
Subban had a tough Sophomore year but I don't think he has even reached his ceiling. I never saw McDo be able to make the moves of Subban or hit like he can. Remember when he wiped out Marchand and the Larsson hit was wicked.

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Old
05-07-2012, 08:00 PM
  #178
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
To make matters worse, the Habs dealt a first and a second for Tanguay at the 2008 draft.....when the Flames selected at 26th, the top player on Trevor's draft list was John Carlson.

what might have been...

Markov Carlson
Subban Mac
Gorges Your Grandmother
Strange how those 'magic beans' turn into good players down the line...

And we won't talk about Granny in this thread.
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Conclusion: just give Timmins more picks.
This.
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
To make matters better, we'll have Beaulieu and Tinordi filling the void, and neither Carlson nor McD can do what Tinordi might be able to do, while Beaulieu is about the same mold as the first two. Tinordi has very good mobility and skating for a guy his size, I'm pretty sure he'll be a force on the blue line. Whereas we already have similar Ds to Carlson and McD.
It's great that we have some good prospects coming up. It doesn't negate the waste that we've had over the years though. We've made ridiculously stupid moves.
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
Gainey was a dreadful HAB Gm even before the personal problems - he should have been fired long before he was-- he was inept in many ways
I don't think he was dreadful by any stretch. Some dumb moves? Sure. Every GM makes them. But he went off a cliff once he had those personal problems. He should've stepped down.
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I love your loony rants.

McDonagh is overrated, you guys are acting like we lost a Lidstrom-Niedermayer-Blake hybrid when in fact we didn't. He's a great minute eating D-man, very steady and he's on a winning team. Jeff Schultz led the league in +/- a few years ago too. I'm going to wait and see if it's McDonagh that's really good or just a really over-achieving NYR.
Steady, minute eating D-man on a great team and he's like 22 or 23 years old. Are you freaking serious? You think he's overrated? And he's actually a pretty big reason WHY they're a winning team. He's a steady eddy blueliner who you can use in any situation and he's just starting his career.

Nobody is saying he's the next Lidstrom but he's going to have a very good career for a long, long time and we sure as hell could use a guy like him in our lineup.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
From what we know today: Markov has had the ability of an elite d-man. Subban can eat up massive minutes AND generate points. The rest, they're all unproven. Tins, Beau, Valentenko are all unknowns. For a seven games series starting tomorrow, I'd take Markov over Tins, Beau or Valentenko.
First, wtf does Markov have to do with anything here?

Second, from what we know today Markov is a huge risk... that's it. We've known this for the past three years and most of the time we've been burned by it. And that's all the more reason why the mind blowing stupidity of giving away McD for nothing (actually worse than nothing) looks even worse now.

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Old
05-07-2012, 08:16 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I'd go with either. They are both good shut down defensemen. This year or last year, Subban was on the ice for "the win" or for "the shutdown". How can you say that McDonagh is better at it? I mean sure, he is a shutdown defenseman, but he gets called that because he doesn't have much of an offensive game, or at least didn't prove it yet. Subban is good at shutting down but he will also burn you offensively if you're not careful.
That's 32 points for "no offensive game" McDonagh. And see, I do recognize Subban's talent defensively. I keep mentining how his defensive problems were totally overrated. Yet, with the team we have now, I will always go with Markov in both offensive and defensive 'cause he has the smarts to do both.

As far as how I can one is better than the other, well until proven otherwise, one has actually been on the right side of his team winning, while the other didn't. Though I do understand that both aren't solely the result of this, don't worry. Again, and people in here have all the trouble in the world to understand this, I'm not saying because I'd chose McDo that I hate Subban or think he's terrible at it. Just that I think McDo is better at it. Better at blocking shots, while Subban improves tremendously, McDonagh has less tendancies to make defensive mistakes, is great at reading the plays, such impressive stickwork and so on....


Last edited by Whitesnake: 05-07-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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Old
05-07-2012, 08:29 PM
  #180
Poulet Kostopoulos
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I like defenseman and this was a bad trade but get over it for crying out loud. Are we gonna cry ourselves a river for the next 20 years? Besides, one season doesn't make a career. Komisarek used to be good too...

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05-07-2012, 08:32 PM
  #181
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The Gauthier pimp hand is still very very strong over here.

The apologists for Gauthier are still doing it.

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Old
05-07-2012, 08:36 PM
  #182
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Gauthier. That anecdote of cheeseless flights slays me.

Cheddar Island

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Old
05-07-2012, 08:37 PM
  #183
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The Gauthier pimp hand is still very very strong over here.

The apologists for Gauthier are still doing it.
It's Gainey that's responsible for everything alright!!!!

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Old
05-07-2012, 09:42 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by googlymoogly View Post
Subban had a tough Sophomore year but I don't think he has even reached his ceiling. I never saw McDo be able to make the moves of Subban or hit like he can. Remember when he wiped out Marchand and the Larsson hit was wicked.
If that's a tough year... 18th among Ds for TOI/G, 29th for points, 33rd +/- among Ds with 20+ min avTOI (106 players), playing on a dysfonctional team, can't wait to see what he'll do on a good year.

Also, what WS doesn't seem to realize is that Subban isn't playing with guys like Brad Richards and Gaborik. Who's better? Brad Richards and his -1? or McDonagh and his +25? Add this to the fact Girardi played more minutes yet has half of McD's +/- is proof that he was at times sheltered.

Subban's +/- went up by 17 this year compared to his rookie season, while playing 2 minutes more per game.

Anyway, if I have the choice between Subban or McD to go on a playoff run, I'd take Subban by a mile.

Subban
21gp 3g 9a 12pts 0+/-
McD
17gp 0g 1a 1pts -4

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05-07-2012, 09:52 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
If that's a tough year... 18th among Ds for TOI/G, 29th for points, 33rd +/- among Ds with 20+ min avTOI (106 players), playing on a dysfonctional team, can't wait to see what he'll do on a good year.

Also, what WS doesn't seem to realize is that Subban isn't playing with guys like Brad Richards and Gaborik. Who's better? Brad Richards and his -1? or McDonagh and his +25? Add this to the fact Girardi played more minutes yet has half of McD's +/- is proof that he was at times sheltered.

Subban's +/- went up by 17 this year compared to his rookie season, while playing 2 minutes more per game.

Anyway, if I have the choice between Subban or McD to go on a playoff run, I'd take Subban by a mile.

Subban
21gp 3g 9a 12pts 0+/-
McD
17gp 0g 1a 1pts -4
He started out rough in the beginning but by the end was strong. So now I am hoping it is not a slow start for him next season and he becomes more consistent.

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05-07-2012, 10:18 PM
  #186
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I've always thought the Gauthier's critics were a bit too harsh, but if he really is the mastermind behind that trade, than I'm officially joining the hate-clan. Mcdonagh, added to our current depth on defensive, would give us an extremely solid unit, and we could even use Higgins on that third line... He can chip in at times and give us a good 20-20 on a third line role.

God, that trade is a living nightmare.

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Old
05-07-2012, 10:27 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
I like defenseman and this was a bad trade but get over it for crying out loud. Are we gonna cry ourselves a river for the next 20 years? Besides, one season doesn't make a career. Komisarek used to be good too...
I'll be talking about that trade for the next 20 years,it was that bad...get over the fact you are going to hear about it for years to come.

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Old
05-07-2012, 10:48 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
If that's a tough year... 18th among Ds for TOI/G, 29th for points, 33rd +/- among Ds with 20+ min avTOI (106 players), playing on a dysfonctional team, can't wait to see what he'll do on a good year.

Also, what WS doesn't seem to realize is that Subban isn't playing with guys like Brad Richards and Gaborik. Who's better? Brad Richards and his -1? or McDonagh and his +25? Add this to the fact Girardi played more minutes yet has half of McD's +/- is proof that he was at times sheltered.

Subban's +/- went up by 17 this year compared to his rookie season, while playing 2 minutes more per game.

Anyway, if I have the choice between Subban or McD to go on a playoff run, I'd take Subban by a mile.

Subban
21gp 3g 9a 12pts 0+/-
McD
17gp 0g 1a 1pts -4
So what?

You keep saying "I'd take Markov over any of these guys"... well who the hell cares? Seriously, it doesn't matter if Subban's better or Markov's better. That's not the point. The point is that McD is a great young blueliner who we needlessly gave away and we'd be better off with BOTH these guys. Both guys were excellent prospects we could've built the team around but instead Mr. Doe-Head decided to give McD away for a player the Rangers couldn't wait to be rid of. A player we ourselves can't wait to be rid of...

This has nothing to do with Tinordi, Markov, Subban, Bealieau or anyone else. It's about our former GM who couldn't find way out of a paper bag. Folks can say that we're harping on what is already gone, but I think it makes sense to look back at what is broken so you know not to make those same mistakes again in the future. If the publications are right and Timmins was the guy saying to keep him, then hopefully the new guy comes in and is smart enough to listen to him going forward.

I don't blame the apologists for not wanting to talk about this. But it happened, and I think it warrants discussing how and why it happened. It was an awful trade, period. Markov or Subban being a better blueliner than McD means Jack squat here.
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
That's 32 points for "no offensive game" McDonagh. And see, I do recognize Subban's talent defensively. I keep mentining how his defensive problems were totally overrated. Yet, with the team we have now, I will always go with Markov in both offensive and defensive 'cause he has the smarts to do both.

As far as how I can one is better than the other, well until proven otherwise, one has actually been on the right side of his team winning, while the other didn't. Though I do understand that both aren't solely the result of this, don't worry. Again, and people in here have all the trouble in the world to understand this, I'm not saying because I'd chose McDo that I hate Subban or think he's terrible at it. Just that I think McDo is better at it. Better at blocking shots, while Subban improves tremendously, McDonagh has less tendancies to make defensive mistakes, is great at reading the plays, such impressive stickwork and so on....
The two of them would've been tremendous together. Subban being the offense and McD providing the D. Both can play in both ends and both are going to improve. 32 points is fantastic for a blueliner his age. And the Rangers aren't exactly the best offensive club in the world. Totally sucks that we won't get to see them develop together but it is what it is.

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Old
05-07-2012, 10:52 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
I like defenseman and this was a bad trade but get over it for crying out loud. Are we gonna cry ourselves a river for the next 20 years? Besides, one season doesn't make a career. Komisarek used to be good too...
or maybe, just maybe, if you don't want to hear about it or discuss it, you should avoid reading or posting in threads titled: "News Article: Pierre Gauthier didnít like Ryan McDonagh"


seriously, why is it people go into threads just to complain about the thread topic? Stay the hell out and let those that do want to talk about it have at it.

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05-07-2012, 11:02 PM
  #190
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I don't get the Ribeiro trade bashing.

People I know have very bad things to say about his off-ice behavior from his time in both Quebec (QMJHL) and Montreal.

There were also rumors about a particular event during which he badly misbehaved, which led to his departure.

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05-07-2012, 11:03 PM
  #191
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To make matters better, we'll have Beaulieu and Tinordi filling the void, and neither Carlson nor McD can do what Tinordi might be able to do, while Beaulieu is about the same mold as the first two. Tinordi has very good mobility and skating for a guy his size, I'm pretty sure he'll be a force on the blue line. Whereas we already have similar Ds to Carlson and McD.
2 young studs in the NHL vs 2 good but not quite blue chip prospects. They make matters a little more hopeful, but not better as of right now.

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05-07-2012, 11:10 PM
  #192
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I don't get the Ribeiro trade bashing.

People I know have very bad things to say about his off-ice behavior from his time in both Quebec (QMJHL) and Montreal.

There were also rumors about a particular event during which he badly misbehaved, which led to his departure.
all very true, including the rumor, but that still doesn't explain or justify trading a young asset (coming off of 65 & 51 pt seasons on an offensively challenged team) for an overpaid veteran depth dman who barely managed 7th dman duties and was out of the NHL a year later.

Terrible terrible asset management, which is what plagued the Gainey/Gauthier regime.

No problem with trading away players that don't fit the character/identity a team is trying to build, BIG problem if you consistently get poor value in return for them.

even more troubling when those players go on to be model citizens and/or better performers in their new homes (Ribs, Grabs, S.Kost, Lats, D'ago...)

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05-08-2012, 12:19 AM
  #193
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all very true, including the rumor, but that still doesn't explain or justify trading a young asset (coming off of 65 & 51 pt seasons on an offensively challenged team) for an overpaid veteran depth dman who barely managed 7th dman duties and was out of the NHL a year later.

Terrible terrible asset management, which is what plagued the Gainey/Gauthier regime.

No problem with trading away players that don't fit the character/identity a team is trying to build, BIG problem if you consistently get poor value in return for them.

even more troubling when those players go on to be model citizens and/or better performers in their new homes (Ribs, Grabs, S.Kost, Lats, D'ago...)
I think it's more than just terrible asset management. Poor outside evaluation as well.
I mean, how could they possibly actually think Niinima was really as bad as he turned out to be. There's no way they thought he was a 7th Dman. There's no way they actually scouted Niinima extensively and went ahead with this trade.
They must have thought he was better than his showing. Why?
Either that or they didn't even scout the guy and simply got incredibly screwed by trusting Dallas's word that Niinima is good.

In any case, unacceptable.

But it's in the past now. I'm pretty happy with Bergevin becoming our GM.
One thing that has often been an object of criticism in Mtl over the years is team identity. I have no doubt we will have a well defined identity under Bergevin. Might not happen as of next season, but we should see it come along within 2years imo.

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05-08-2012, 12:49 AM
  #194
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This thread is depressing. Off to the draft thread I go.

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05-08-2012, 03:51 AM
  #195
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Next time a see Reggie Houle at Ziggy's Pub. I'm going to shake his hand, I've ignored him for years. He's off the hook now, because Pierre Gauthier is the Worst GM in NHL History!
In the Habs's history probably 2nd worse. Houle made the worst trade in franchise history and set the team back 10 years, In NHL history not even frikken close my friend, Mike Mibury takes that prize.

Was this a lousy trade? Hell yes it was but no way was it the worst. I'd rank this one the 4th worst.

5. Pierre Turgeon, Cory Fitzpatrick and Craig Conroy to St. Louis for Shayne Corson LW, Murray Baron D and a fifth round pick (Gennady Razin).

4. the Gomez/ McDonagh deal

3. John Leclair, Gilbert Dionne and Eric Dejardins to Philly for Dr. Recchi & 1995 3rd Rounder (Martin Hohenberger)

2. Chris Chelios and a second round draft pick in 1991 (Mike Pomichter C) to the Chicago Blackhawks for Denis Savard

1. Patrick Roy G with two Stanley Cups and two Conn Smythe trophies under his belt and team captain Mike Keane RW were traded to the Colorado Avalanche for Jocelyn Thibault, Martin Rucinsky and Andrei Kovalenko

No one but no one takes the title of worst GM in our team's history away from Houle. Not only did he trade away Roy for peanuts but Turgeon, Damphousse (for 3 draft picks that never panned out) and Darcy Tucker (in the Richer deal).

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05-08-2012, 04:02 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
If that's a tough year... 18th among Ds for TOI/G, 29th for points, 33rd +/- among Ds with 20+ min avTOI (106 players), playing on a dysfonctional team, can't wait to see what he'll do on a good year.

Also, what WS doesn't seem to realize is that Subban isn't playing with guys like Brad Richards and Gaborik. Who's better? Brad Richards and his -1? or McDonagh and his +25? Add this to the fact Girardi played more minutes yet has half of McD's +/- is proof that he was at times sheltered.

Subban's +/- went up by 17 this year compared to his rookie season, while playing 2 minutes more per game.

Anyway, if I have the choice between Subban or McD to go on a playoff run, I'd take Subban by a mile.

Subban
21gp 3g 9a 12pts 0+/-
McD
17gp 0g 1a 1pts -4
Hells ya so would I.

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05-08-2012, 06:00 AM
  #197
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What the hell? You can't compare Markov and Subban. Markov went through growing pains in his first two years too and has played for how long? Subban is entering his 3rd year. Come on people.

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05-08-2012, 06:31 AM
  #198
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One thing that has often been an object of criticism in Mtl over the years is team identity. .
You don't consider "The Smurf Brigade" an identity?

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05-08-2012, 07:05 AM
  #199
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all very true, including the rumor, but that still doesn't explain or justify trading a young asset (coming off of 65 & 51 pt seasons on an offensively challenged team) for an overpaid veteran depth dman who barely managed 7th dman duties and was out of the NHL a year later.

Terrible terrible asset management, which is what plagued the Gainey/Gauthier regime.

No problem with trading away players that don't fit the character/identity a team is trying to build, BIG problem if you consistently get poor value in return for them.

even more troubling when those players go on to be model citizens and/or better performers in their new homes (Ribs, Grabs, S.Kost, Lats, D'ago...)
I know that the Ribeiro trade is an example of a wasted asset. On paper it doesn't get much worse. But I really didn't care when we made that trade. I hated Ribeiro and I suspect the trade was made to send a message to him.

Thing is, you can do that kind of trade once. You can't do it over and over and it seems like we've done that on at least a few occassions.
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I think it's more than just terrible asset management. Poor outside evaluation as well.
I mean, how could they possibly actually think Niinima was really as bad as he turned out to be. There's no way they thought he was a 7th Dman. There's no way they actually scouted Niinima extensively and went ahead with this trade.
They must have thought he was better than his showing. Why?
Either that or they didn't even scout the guy and simply got incredibly screwed by trusting Dallas's word that Niinima is good.

In any case, unacceptable.

But it's in the past now. I'm pretty happy with Bergevin becoming our GM.
One thing that has often been an object of criticism in Mtl over the years is team identity. I have no doubt we will have a well defined identity under Bergevin. Might not happen as of next season, but we should see it come along within 2years imo.
It seemed to be more of a statement than an actual trade but yeah... if you're going to make a statement like that, at least get a somewhat decent asset out of it. We couldn't even manage that.
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Originally Posted by Lizardking89 View Post
In the Habs's history probably 2nd worse. Houle made the worst trade in franchise history and set the team back 10 years, In NHL history not even frikken close my friend, Mike Mibury takes that prize.

Was this a lousy trade? Hell yes it was but no way was it the worst. I'd rank this one the 4th worst.

5. Pierre Turgeon, Cory Fitzpatrick and Craig Conroy to St. Louis for Shayne Corson LW, Murray Baron D and a fifth round pick (Gennady Razin).

4. the Gomez/ McDonagh deal

3. John Leclair, Gilbert Dionne and Eric Dejardins to Philly for Dr. Recchi & 1995 3rd Rounder (Martin Hohenberger)

2. Chris Chelios and a second round draft pick in 1991 (Mike Pomichter C) to the Chicago Blackhawks for Denis Savard

1. Patrick Roy G with two Stanley Cups and two Conn Smythe trophies under his belt and team captain Mike Keane RW were traded to the Colorado Avalanche for Jocelyn Thibault, Martin Rucinsky and Andrei Kovalenko

No one but no one takes the title of worst GM in our team's history away from Houle. Not only did he trade away Roy for peanuts but Turgeon, Damphousse (for 3 draft picks that never panned out) and Darcy Tucker (in the Richer deal).
Houle was a puppet. Corey is to blame. Houle was the Gord Stellick of the Montreal Canadiens.
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
You don't consider "The Smurf Brigade" an identity?
Nice.

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05-08-2012, 11:50 AM
  #200
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
If that's a tough year... 18th among Ds for TOI/G, 29th for points, 33rd +/- among Ds with 20+ min avTOI (106 players), playing on a dysfonctional team, can't wait to see what he'll do on a good year.

Also, what WS doesn't seem to realize is that Subban isn't playing with guys like Brad Richards and Gaborik. Who's better? Brad Richards and his -1? or McDonagh and his +25? Add this to the fact Girardi played more minutes yet has half of McD's +/- is proof that he was at times sheltered.

Subban's +/- went up by 17 this year compared to his rookie season, while playing 2 minutes more per game.

Anyway, if I have the choice between Subban or McD to go on a playoff run, I'd take Subban by a mile.

Subban
21gp 3g 9a 12pts 0+/-
McD
17gp 0g 1a 1pts -4
Usually, you are the one who loves for people to talk about the subject in hand and not go all over the place, so while I know you mostly responded to the guy talking about a tough year, you do finish by saying that I don't understand that McDonagh is playing with Richards and Gaborik....Why is that? 'Cause I bring up the number of points of McDonagh? Well that was solely in response to how non-existant his offensive game. Did I mention that McDonagh will end up being a better offensive d-man than Subban? Where? And this "who is better", I would never had believe would have been coming from you...Since when do we know who is better solely by looking at the +/- stats? Did I do that? Where am I dissing Subban? At the very worst, I'm saying that I'd trust McDonagh more in a defensive mission...how is that a crime? And by saying it, I TOTALLY know that Subban is very good in that department and is NOT the supposed liability than some stupid people wants us to beleive. But the very main point is that we would need a guy like McDonagh on our ranks. Period. No matter who's there. No matter who's coming. McDonagh is right now better than what's coming 'cause he's actually doing it. And McDonagh would clearly be a top 4 in our team and would have helped greatly to make up for the loss of Markov. How can anyone deny that is beyond me.

And stats for stats, I could also note that while the Rangers have Richards and Gaborik, they still only scored 15 more goals than us on a 82-game season. So McDo had to do something good. And for once people can't used the Grabovski excuse which is "Well of course he's great, he's alone playing all this time for a very bad team". But then strangely, even when an ex player for a very good team, there are other excuses coming in.

And my other main point, is about you don't use a few games span, heck you don't even use a sophomore year and especially not an average WJC, to dislike a player and thinks he's expendable when just 2 years before your head scout, maybe the best head scout in the business, just told you that he will be something special.

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