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PK Subban Vs Erik Johnson

View Poll Results: EJ or PK
EJ 116 45.31%
PK 140 54.69%
Voters: 256. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-08-2012, 11:52 AM
  #126
JWK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
I don't have time to rebutt it, but i am impressed by this post. It was good of you to provide a rebuttal. I have arguments to counter it, but i probably won't write anything for a week (I'm going travelling). Kudos for making an actual argument.

P.S. I'm not out to get anybody or the Avs, i'm only posting my opinion. So talk of that is rather ridiculous, and is what i would call a rather weak straw man. (This is not directed at the poster i'm responding to)
You keep responding to other people on here after this post, so you have time to make a counter argument. How bout doing that or do you not have a counter argument?

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05-08-2012, 11:54 AM
  #127
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To me, Erik Johnson type D are a dime a dozen.

PK is unique, he's got flair. I'd take PK imo.

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05-08-2012, 12:13 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by kammyBlazer View Post
To me, Erik Johnson type D are a dime a dozen.

PK is unique, he's got flair. I'd take PK imo.
No problem with you picking PK but really?

6'4" 230 lbs defenseman that can skate like the wind and move the puck while having pretty good hands are not a dime a dozen.

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Old
05-08-2012, 12:34 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by NothingLikeAnEJ View Post
No problem with you picking PK but really?

6'4" 230 lbs defenseman that can skate like the wind and move the puck while having pretty good hands are not a dime a dozen.
What are you talking about... There are tons of 6 4 defenseman with skills like Johnson in the league...

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Old
05-08-2012, 12:36 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
No not even close. I grew up as a Habs fan listening to stories about Beliveau, Harvey, Richard brothers and Mahovlich brothers when I came to stay with my family in Canada for holidays and I started to really like the Avs in the late 90's when I figured out that Joe Sakic is of Croatian heritage.
Well it seems like you're more of an Avs fan from this thread. Every single time someone says Subbam is better you get mad and tell them he's not.

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Old
05-08-2012, 02:00 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by kammyBlazer View Post
To me, Erik Johnson type D are a dime a dozen.

PK is unique, he's got flair. I'd take PK imo.
Players like Erik Johnson aren't exactly a dime a dozen but Pernell Karl Subban has a peculiar skillset. To be honest, a closer comparable to EJ is Coburn.

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Old
05-08-2012, 02:15 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by 76ftw View Post
Well it seems like you're more of an Avs fan from this thread. Every single time someone says Subbam is better you get mad and tell them he's not.
I'm an Avs fan who lives in Chicago and so watch the Hawks, I may love Staz and Lando but if someone started trying to argue they were better this season than Toews and Hossa, I would let them know how wrong and stupid that opinion is. And I'm not even a partial Blackhawks fan, just someone who watches them because I have friends who support their local team. That was hyperbole but having a strong opinion that a player on your favorite team isn't as good as another player doesn't make you no longer a fan of your team.

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Old
05-08-2012, 02:18 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by 76ftw View Post
Well it seems like you're more of an Avs fan from this thread. Every single time someone says Subbam is better you get mad and tell them he's not.
Superb logic.

I tell it like it is IMHO, if you don't like it, tough luck and I fail to see where I got mad.

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Old
05-08-2012, 03:29 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
I actually agree that it will be difficult to truly differentiate using statistics the difference between Subban and EJ defensively outside of some of the posted fields (hits, takeaway to giveaway ratio) and recognize that almost any statistic can have an equally negative light or equally positive light shined on it depending on the situation.
Hits/takeaways/giveaways are all arena oriented stats. If you want to take a look at the matchup game, you look at advanced sabremetrics such as QUALCOMP, relCorsi, zonestarts etc.

Quote:
That's why my "opinion" is required to logically differentiate certain statistics. Such as when I validated that EJ decrease in TOI was due to injury and not performance, as he was visually better towards the end of the season and not worse.
Understandable. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:
EJ and Quincey, with a little Elliott were relied on to be our offensive defenseman this season, followed by Hunwick when Quincey was traded. EJ frequently carried the puck out of the defensive zone and led the charge into the offensive zone. The fact he has less giveaways is not merely because he faced lesser competition or was not asked to provide an offensive spark, there is emperical evidence which gives value to those statistics in EJ's favor.
But he did face lesser competition. QUALCOMP measures that. I do agree that Johnson has much better mobility that will shine when he hits his prime, but this past season, Subban was better at virtually all aspects of the game.

Quote:
Subban does not have to be the best at every aspect of hockey to be better than EJ, I'm sure you could acknowledge aspects of EJ's game which are better if you took the time to compare them. His strength with the puck improved dramatically this season from last and was one of the defining characteristics of EJ's game, providing credence to why he had such a favorable ratio.
EJ has the better tools to become successful, Subban is a player who just has the brains to be the better hockey player, not to mention the fact that Subban is pretty ripped himself and he isn't a 5 foot 11 175 lb twig.

EJ needs to show me more results before I put him with the other top tier defensemen in the league.

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Old
05-08-2012, 04:36 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Hits/takeaways/giveaways are all arena oriented stats. If you want to take a look at the matchup game, you look at advanced sabremetrics such as QUALCOMP, relCorsi, zonestarts etc.
To some degree, sure. That's why I never originally even mentioned hits until using it as an example of a stat in this thread. In my opinion it should be taken away from Subban, as he is discussed as being a physical, aggressive defender. Whereas EJ's numbers in less games demonstrated he doesn't shy away either and at worst has a similarly physical game.

Quote:
But he did face lesser competition. QUALCOMP measures that. I do agree that Johnson has much better mobility that will shine when he hits his prime, but this past season, Subban was better at virtually all aspects of the game.
http://hockeyanalysis.com/2012/01/25...tionteammates/

I suggest you read this over. It helps explain why Qualcomp should be kept to a minimum in serious hockey debates. It also sums up my feelings on just how accurate it truly is.

Quote:
EJ has the better tools to become successful, Subban is a player who just has the brains to be the better hockey player, not to mention the fact that Subban is pretty ripped himself and he isn't a 5 foot 11 175 lb twig.

EJ needs to show me more results before I put him with the other top tier defensemen in the league.
The myth that EJ has no hockey sense should really go away. He has phenominal defensive zone awareness and if he were to completely stop developing as of today he would be an excellent shutdown defender capable of chipping in 30-35 points a year and leading the rush on occasion.

But he's still only 24, having played 4 seasons of NHL hockey. He isn't done developing, nor is Subban. So why is it appropriate for people to act like EJ is 28 and done developing while Subban is so full of promise?

It's one thing to say EJ AND Subban are both a tier below the universal #1 defenders, it's another to claim Subban is a #1 while EJ is not.

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Old
05-08-2012, 08:45 PM
  #136
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Very close poll so far. 36 all.

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Old
05-08-2012, 09:35 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 651 View Post
Ahhhh, another Minnesota defensive stud versus P.K. Just like the 'McDonagh v. Subban' thread, give me Erik Johnson over Subban. I'll take him and Johnson, AINEC.
We never would have guessed.

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Old
05-08-2012, 09:39 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by NothingLikeAnEJ View Post
And lonewolfe takes Eskimo to school. Goodbye folks, nothing else to see here.
Really.All i read was lonewolfe trying to claim his opinion was logic while not wanting to use any stats/facts that Eskimo has brought into the picture.
But i guess opinion > facts/stats.

WTG Eskimo on this one.

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Old
05-08-2012, 09:47 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topdog View Post
Really.All i read was lonewolfe trying to claim his opinion was logic while not wanting to use any stats/facts that Eskimo has brought into the picture.
But i guess opinion > facts/stats.

WTG Eskimo on this one.
Lol what stats has eskimo brought up? Lonewolfe brought up his fair share of stats regarding ice time.

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Old
05-09-2012, 08:05 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topdog View Post
Really.All i read was lonewolfe trying to claim his opinion was logic while not wanting to use any stats/facts that Eskimo has brought into the picture.
But i guess opinion > facts/stats.

WTG Eskimo on this one.
The guy thinks Petry is better than Johnson. How much more homer can someone get?

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Old
05-09-2012, 08:18 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by avsfan09 View Post
The guy thinks Petry is better than Johnson. How much more homer can someone get?
He might think that Petry is better than Johnson but he knows that P.K is better than Johnson to which i agree with.

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05-09-2012, 09:30 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
He might think that Petry is better than Johnson but he knows that P.K is better than Johnson to which i agree with.
People knew the Earth was at the center of the universe until Copernicus came along and blew everyone's minds.

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Old
05-09-2012, 11:06 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
People knew the Earth was at the center of the universe until Copernicus came along and blew everyone's minds.
I dont even care what the argument is about because I amway too drunk but to cite Copernicus as a source... boy you're reachin' here

Tryin' tosound educated are wee?

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Old
05-09-2012, 11:16 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I dont even care what the argument is about because I amway too drunk but to cite Copernicus as a source... boy you're reachin' here

Tryin' tosound educated are wee?
Yes, you are too drunk.

A.) What is wrong with being educated?

B.) Referring to something someone did sometime is not citing them as a source. He was merely pointing out that because a large amount of people believe something does not make it true.

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05-09-2012, 11:26 PM
  #145
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EJ in lead. I choose Subban. I don't really care at the result. I don't need a poll to tell me which I prefer. Perfectly content with Subban.

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Old
05-10-2012, 01:06 AM
  #146
poetryinmotion
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Yes, you are too drunk.

A.) What is wrong with being educated?

B.) Referring to something someone did sometime is not citing them as a source. He was merely pointing out that because a large amount of people believe something does not make it true.
I might be too drunk, lol, but do I really have to answer this?

There is nothing wrong with being educated, but let's be clear LOL. There is no educating going on here... there's a stronger correlation between my team's Zamboni driver to the success of my home team on home ice than there is of Copernicus in any hockey driven argument, lol.

Now secondly and this is the important part... Erik Johnson is not the center of the universe..

but PK is

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Old
05-10-2012, 04:53 AM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
People knew the Earth was at the center of the universe until Copernicus came along and blew everyone's minds.
Ya and people also though the world was square so whats the big deal?

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Old
05-10-2012, 09:00 PM
  #148
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I'd take Subban

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Old
05-11-2012, 03:20 AM
  #149
bluemandan
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Having seem both of them play a few games, I can honestly say, without any doubt that these two players, right now and for the rest of their careers, are completely and utterly equal in each and every single area of hockey, both on and off the ice.

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Old
05-11-2012, 07:55 AM
  #150
Le Magnifique 66
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PK Subban

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