HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Toronto Maple Leafs will try to move up from 5th overall at the 2012 NHL draft

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-07-2012, 07:13 PM
  #101
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
You're asking Staal to be a #1 centre when he's been a #3 centre all his career. Those are the questions.

Also, Staal is UFA in 1 year. Would you give up a top 5 pick + for an upcoming UFA? He better sign an extension.
I don't think there is any question, an extension is expected. I also hope, hope hope we don't need to use our top 5 pick to get it done, but, I'd imagine other teams around us will be able to offer decent picks to get it done.

I wish there was a way to do it without giving up that picks.

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 07:22 PM
  #102
calcal798
Registered User
 
calcal798's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mapes View Post
That was to get to number 2. Isles were never dealing the number 1.
That would have been a pretty good trade if we picked Duchene. Our core could use another top line talent added to it.

calcal798 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 07:26 PM
  #103
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 33,120
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
it wouldnt be the most brutal deal out there. it would give edmonton schenn + murray/dumba to start building their defensive core around. if they managed to sign schultz as well which is a possibility they would look like


hall nug-hops eberle
msp gagner



murray schultz
schenn

that has dynasty written all over it imo if they can find a goalie

either way i dont see them moving that 1st.
No it doesn't. Edmonton's rebuild looks like a bunch of soft boys up front who will probably get manhandled for the better part of a decade by better balanced teams. I'm all for building through the draft but man is Edmonton looking butter soft.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 07:31 PM
  #104
New Liskeard
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
You're asking Staal to be a #1 centre when he's been a #3 centre all his career. Those are the questions.

Also, Staal is UFA in 1 year. Would you give up a top 5 pick + for an upcoming UFA? He better sign an extension.
You're getting way ahead of yourself here. This is the post I responded to.


WTF if we stand pat and draft galchanyuk/ grigo, they will be better than Jstaal and his 40pt producing ass

My point is simply this. No one can say with any certainty that Galy/Grigo will be better than Stall when they have not even played a minute in the NHL. Plain and simple. IF you want to argue that Staal is not worth the 5th overall, so be it. But there is nothing to say or prove a prospect will be better than a proven Staal. That was what the whole post was about. Way too many dreams of gum drops and lolly pops, when it comes to prospects. They don't always pan out they way you think, yet a few fancy moves and highlights the kids go squirelly here.

New Liskeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 07:34 PM
  #105
Midna
Registered User
 
Midna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 319
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
40pt producing ass

Midna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 07:44 PM
  #106
darrylsittler27
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,373
vCash: 500
Didn't you listen to Burke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leafsrule123 View Post
This will turn into another "Im going to trade up for Tavares" draft lol...Leafs nation will then get so excited nothing will happen as per usual
I know some of the weaker minded ones say things to me like..."Didn't you hear what Burke said.."

darrylsittler27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 07:48 PM
  #107
weems
Registered User
 
weems's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,666
vCash: 500
So now everyone thinks its a given that the player selected at #5 will be a better player then Jordan Staal?

Heres some perspective.

2000 #5 pick Raffi Torres
2001 #5 pick Stan Chistov
2002 #5 pick Ryan Whitney
2003 #5 pick Thomas Vanek
2004 #5 pick Blake Wheeler
2005 #5 pick Carey Price
2006 #5 pick Phil Kessel
2007 #5 pick Karl Alzner
2008 #5 pick Luke Schenn
2009 #5 pick Brayden Schenn
2010 #5 pick Nino Niederieter
2011 #5 pick Ryan Strome

The only players currently that I would forsure take over Staal are Price and Kessel. B Schenn vs Staal is debatable and I would rather have Staal on my team that a soft streaky goal scorer like Vanek. I can understand if someone doesnt want to give up the #5 for Staal but lets not make it seem like its some sort of slam dunk that the guy we take at #5 will be better then Staal because recent history shows possibly otherwise.

I still think Staal has room to grow just like I think Kessel does (Staal is one year younger) but I doubt this happens unless he's put on another team and see's more minutes and PP minutes on a consistant regular basis. You dont need to have a #1 PPG Center to contend, just as both Pheonix and Nashville are showing. Staal would insulate Kessel and Lupul very nicely on that line and bring some much needed size, grit and 2 way play. Kessel and Lupul showed they can create offence by themselves so its not like the C needs to be ultra offensive.

weems is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 07:53 PM
  #108
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
So now everyone thinks its a given that the player selected at #5 will be a better player then Jordan Staal?

Heres some perspective.

2000 #5 pick Raffi Torres
2001 #5 pick Stan Chistov
2002 #5 pick Ryan Whitney
2003 #5 pick Thomas Vanek
2004 #5 pick Blake Wheeler
2005 #5 pick Carey Price
2006 #5 pick Phil Kessel
2007 #5 pick Karl Alzner
2008 #5 pick Luke Schenn
2009 #5 pick Brayden Schenn
2010 #5 pick Nino Niederieter
2011 #5 pick Ryan Strome

The only players currently that I would forsure take over Staal are Price and Kessel. B Schenn vs Staal is debatable and I would rather have Staal on my team that a soft streaky goal scorer like Vanek. I can understand if someone doesnt want to give up the #5 for Staal but lets not make it seem like its some sort of slam dunk that the guy we take at #5 will be better then Staal because recent history shows possibly otherwise.

I still think Staal has room to grow just like I think Kessel does (Staal is one year younger) but I doubt this happens unless he's put on another team and see's more minutes and PP minutes on a consistant regular basis. You dont need to have a #1 PPG Center to contend, just as both Pheonix and Nashville are showing. Staal would insulate Kessel and Lupul very nicely on that line and bring some much needed size, grit and 2 way play. Kessel and Lupul showed they can create offence by themselves so its not like the C needs to be ultra offensive.
Very well said. It's also quite possible #5 is just beyond the ability to get the #1 center we need.

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 07:56 PM
  #109
nuck
Axis of Evil
 
nuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: North Korea
Posts: 5,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by leafsfuture View Post


Would you really want Getzlaf over Staal at this point??
Jordan Staal is 3 years younger, had a better PPG this year, is a better skater than Getzlaf, a better shooter, and is also a good playmaker.
In a situation where a 5 year deal puts Getz at only 32, the age difference has no meaning. You cannot rely on owning a player any longer than that.

Getzlaf scored 91 points at the same age as Staal is now. It is extremely optimistic to believe Staal will ever top 80 points.

I don't believe Staal is a better skater, and again that has no meaning unless it reflects a better result. Even if he was a great skater he is a 50 point guy most of the time. Getz is only 27 and has had 4 seasons of better than ppg.

Staal gets 25-28 assists per year which puts him in the Grabovski range as a playmaker. Getzlaf's best years are better than Sundins.

In 6 seasons Staal has not topped 30 goals. Except for last season Getzlaf is always close to 25 goals when he is healthy. Staal is a little better shooter but is not the sniper his rookie season indicated. Kulemin was a better goalscorer than Getz for a while too.

Getzlaf has actually won a fight or two and hits a lot more. If you want to get meaner, there is no comparison.

Staal is better defensively and better at faceoffs but the whole idea of him being a top 6 center revolves around him improving a lot offensively. Eric Staal has never come close to matching his 20 year old production, and his points have actually declined since age 22. There is no automatic assumption Jordan will continue to increase his production just by aging. All Getzlaf has to do is not repeat last season and they are miles ahead.

Staal has missed 20 games and 40 games the last 2 years. Getzlaf has miss 38 games in his entire career.

Jordan is really good at being a 3rd line center but he has one 50 point season in 6 years. He is really not ready to be compared to established stars and may never improve his offense enough to be a top line guy.

nuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 08:02 PM
  #110
weems
Registered User
 
weems's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuck View Post
In a situation where a 5 year deal puts Getz at only 32, the age difference has no meaning. You cannot rely on owning a player any longer than that.

Getzlaf scored 91 points at the same age as Staal is now. It is extremely optimistic to believe Staal will ever top 80 points.

I don't believe Staal is a better skater, and again that has no meaning unless it reflects a better result. Even if he was a great skater he is a 50 point guy most of the time. Getz is only 27 and has had 4 seasons of better than ppg.

Staal gets 25-28 assists per year which puts him in the Grabovski range as a playmaker. Getzlaf's best years are better than Sundins.

In 6 seasons Staal has not topped 30 goals. Except for last season Getzlaf is always close to 25 goals when he is healthy. Staal is a little better shooter but is not the sniper his rookie season indicated. Kulemin was a better goalscorer than Getz for a while too.

Getzlaf has actually won a fight or two and hits a lot more. If you want to get meaner, there is no comparison.

Staal is better defensively and better at faceoffs but the whole idea of him being a top 6 center revolves around him improving a lot offensively. Eric Staal has never come close to matching his 20 year old production, and his points have actually declined since age 22. There is no automatic assumption Jordan will continue to increase his production just by aging. All Getzlaf has to do is not repeat last season and they are miles ahead.

Staal has missed 20 games and 40 games the last 2 years. Getzlaf has miss 38 games in his entire career.

Jordan is really good at being a 3rd line center but he has one 50 point season in 6 years. He is really not ready to be compared to established stars and may never improve his offense enough to be a top line guy.
Way to be overly picky.
08-09 49pts
09-10 49pts
10-11 30pts in 42 games (pruducing over 50pt pace)
11-12 50pts

Unless you want to get extremely anal I dont have any problem considering the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons 50pt seasons (missed by 1 point each year).

weems is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 08:07 PM
  #111
Penalty Kill Icing*
Fire Carlyle
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,972
vCash: 500
If we are really going to have Jordan Staal as our top line center, I don't see problem with Bozak. Bozak isn't that much of a downgrade imo.

Penalty Kill Icing* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 08:20 PM
  #112
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 33,120
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
So now everyone thinks its a given that the player selected at #5 will be a better player then Jordan Staal?

Heres some perspective.

2000 #5 pick Raffi Torres
2001 #5 pick Stan Chistov
2002 #5 pick Ryan Whitney
2003 #5 pick Thomas Vanek
2004 #5 pick Blake Wheeler
2005 #5 pick Carey Price
2006 #5 pick Phil Kessel
2007 #5 pick Karl Alzner
2008 #5 pick Luke Schenn
2009 #5 pick Brayden Schenn
2010 #5 pick Nino Niederieter
2011 #5 pick Ryan Strome

The only players currently that I would forsure take over Staal are Price and Kessel. B Schenn vs Staal is debatable and I would rather have Staal on my team that a soft streaky goal scorer like Vanek. I can understand if someone doesnt want to give up the #5 for Staal but lets not make it seem like its some sort of slam dunk that the guy we take at #5 will be better then Staal because recent history shows possibly otherwise.

I still think Staal has room to grow just like I think Kessel does (Staal is one year younger) but I doubt this happens unless he's put on another team and see's more minutes and PP minutes on a consistant regular basis. You dont need to have a #1 PPG Center to contend, just as both Pheonix and Nashville are showing. Staal would insulate Kessel and Lupul very nicely on that line and bring some much needed size, grit and 2 way play. Kessel and Lupul showed they can create offence by themselves so its not like the C needs to be ultra offensive.
Why don't we just use the pick like most teams do and see where our fortunes lie with the 18 year old on a full ELC? There's always this cutesy tendency to get fancy and get some proven name. Whenever the Leafs trade those mystery boxes for boats, those mystery boxes tend to be better than the sure things we got in the short term.

In you expand the sample size to the entire history of the draft, I think you'd find quite a number of players picked at 5 who were way better than what Staal is, not to mention anything of the myriad of players who went on to have fantastic careers picked 5-10.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 08:23 PM
  #113
weems
Registered User
 
weems's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Why don't we just use the pick like most teams do and see where our fortunes lie with the 18 year old on a full ELC? There's always this cutesy tendency to get fancy and get some proven name. Whenever the Leafs trade those mystery boxes for boats, those mystery boxes tend to be better than the sure things we got in the short term.

In you expand the sample size to the entire history of the draft, I think you'd find quite a number of players who were way better than what Staal is.
Thats cool and I have no problem with just keeping the pick I'm just trying to use a bit of perspective here to see that its in no way a given that the player we select at #5 will turn out better then Staal. Sure if you expand the slotting to #5-10 you'll find better players, but the list is to show what kind of player has been chosen over the past 10 or so years at #5.

I have a issue with the people saying "Trade the pick for Staal? Why would we do that when Galchenyuk/Forsberg etc will be better".

weems is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 08:32 PM
  #114
Thomas Malthus
The Dismal Team
 
Thomas Malthus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,372
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
If we are really going to have Jordan Staal as our top line center, I don't see problem with Bozak. Bozak isn't that much of a downgrade imo.
Except for the Selke caliber defense, better offensive production with lesser players and tougher minutes, you're right.

Thomas Malthus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 09:15 PM
  #115
nuck
Axis of Evil
 
nuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: North Korea
Posts: 5,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
Way to be overly picky.
08-09 49pts
09-10 49pts
10-11 30pts in 42 games (pruducing over 50pt pace)
11-12 50pts

Unless you want to get extremely anal I dont have any problem considering the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons 50pt seasons (missed by 1 point each year).
49 or 50 doesn't matter. It's people comparing him to an 80 or 90 point guy that is the problem. Lots of players have 50 point seasons at an early age but every year a guy doesn't bust out makes it more likely he will have a career like Erat or Kozlov or Wolski. Six years pro and tons of even strength ice time plus pp with Crosby and Malkin and he looks okay but far from dazzling. I am not anti-Staal, just against the assumption that he must be this offensive dynamo waiting to be uncorked with just better linemates. I believe he should get better but that may only be a couple of 60+ point seasons, and with the pressure to score, that will affect his defense.
With the resources and financial commitment required, it seems like a gamble to annoint him as a top 3 player. He has probably never seen another teams defensive forwards except when he is on the pp.

nuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 09:17 PM
  #116
Leafidelity
Way she goes...
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,495
vCash: 1775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Malthus View Post
Except for the Selke caliber defense, better offensive production with lesser players and tougher minutes, you're right.
Ever notice how many players get Selke consideration on great teams, only to fall off once they're out of that system?

Leafidelity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 09:17 PM
  #117
Kyle Doobas*
#groovystats
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,689
vCash: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuck View Post
plus pp with Crosby and Malkin
lol no

Kyle Doobas* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 09:20 PM
  #118
Turk Broda
Registered User
 
Turk Broda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,314
vCash: 500
Ryan Murray is the second best player in this draft. He won't fall to 5, but I hope they trade up to get him.

Turk Broda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 09:22 PM
  #119
nuck
Axis of Evil
 
nuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: North Korea
Posts: 5,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarwinWasAdopted View Post
lol no
LOL yes. Do you think they run 3 pp units?

nuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 09:23 PM
  #120
Mansfield
possession obsession
 
Mansfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,081
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
If we are really going to have Jordan Staal as our top line center, I don't see problem with Bozak. Bozak isn't that much of a downgrade imo.
I agree. The only thing J staal has that's significantly better than bozak is staal.

Also, getzlaf and j staal are nowhere near comparable players...

Mansfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 09:38 PM
  #121
Kyle Doobas*
#groovystats
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,689
vCash: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuck View Post
LOL yes. Do you think they run 3 pp units?
Most frequent PP units (forwards) for Pittsburgh, from Leftwinglock.com:
41.1% frequency - Neal, Malkin & Kunitz
11.3% frequency - Kunitz, Malkin & Crosby
6.9% frequency - Neal, Malkin & Crosby
3.6% frequency - Cooke, Staal & Kennedy
2.6% frequency - Neal, Kennedy & Kunitz
1.5% frequency - Cooke, Staal & Park
1.5% frequency - Kunitz, Staal & Kennedy
1.5% frequency - Cooke, Letestu & Staal
1.3% frequency - Neal, Staal & Malkin
1.3% frequency - Kennedy, Letestu & Staal
1.3% frequency - Crosby, Staal & Malkin

Kyle Doobas* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 10:04 PM
  #122
weems
Registered User
 
weems's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuck View Post
49 or 50 doesn't matter. It's people comparing him to an 80 or 90 point guy that is the problem. Lots of players have 50 point seasons at an early age but every year a guy doesn't bust out makes it more likely he will have a career like Erat or Kozlov or Wolski. Six years pro and tons of even strength ice time plus pp with Crosby and Malkin and he looks okay but far from dazzling. I am not anti-Staal, just against the assumption that he must be this offensive dynamo waiting to be uncorked with just better linemates. I believe he should get better but that may only be a couple of 60+ point seasons, and with the pressure to score, that will affect his defense.
With the resources and financial commitment required, it seems like a gamble to annoint him as a top 3 player. He has probably never seen another teams defensive forwards except when he is on the pp.
The point is hes basically been a 50pt player the past 4 years. You clearly tried to talk him down by saying he's only been a 50pt player once in his 6 year career. It would be akin to me saying a player wasnt a PPG player in a 2 year stretch because he put up seasons of 81pts each season and not that of 82pts which is technically the PPG line.

Staal put up 50 points this season in only 62 games. He also only put up 7 total points on the powerplay while seeing less then 2 minutes of PP time a game. For comparison sake someone like Grabovski was seeing 3 minutes a game. I think with a enlarged role, more PP time and better linemates 65-70pts is a very realistic line for Staal going forward. What exactly is wrong with that when you factor in the defensive play, size and grit he would bring to this teams top 6? Sure he wouldnt be a PPG C but his strengths actually match up really well with Kessel/Lupuls shortcomings.

weems is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 10:53 PM
  #123
Sam Slick*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: St John's NL
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I wouldn't be worried. Just because Burke wants to move up doesn't mean the other teams would be willing to move down.

I honestly don't want Yakupov, it will most likely cost something we wouldn't want to give up. Best to pick @ 5th.
Agreed. We have seen this song and dance before, just listen to burkes interviews about tavares.

Sam Slick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 10:54 PM
  #124
nuck
Axis of Evil
 
nuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: North Korea
Posts: 5,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarwinWasAdopted View Post
Most frequent PP units (forwards) for Pittsburgh, from Leftwinglock.com:
41.1% frequency - Neal, Malkin & Kunitz
11.3% frequency - Kunitz, Malkin & Crosby
6.9% frequency - Neal, Malkin & Crosby
3.6% frequency - Cooke, Staal & Kennedy
2.6% frequency - Neal, Kennedy & Kunitz
1.5% frequency - Cooke, Staal & Park
1.5% frequency - Kunitz, Staal & Kennedy
1.5% frequency - Cooke, Letestu & Staal
1.3% frequency - Neal, Staal & Malkin
1.3% frequency - Kennedy, Letestu & Staal
1.3% frequency - Crosby, Staal & Malkin
I guess that could explain his lack of production on the pp. So how does Staal get 2 minutes pp per game (about 30%) but is only involved in 9% of the pp time according to the list?

nuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2012, 11:14 PM
  #125
nuck
Axis of Evil
 
nuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: North Korea
Posts: 5,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
The point is hes basically been a 50pt player the past 4 years. You clearly tried to talk him down by saying he's only been a 50pt player once in his 6 year career. It would be akin to me saying a player wasnt a PPG player in a 2 year stretch because he put up seasons of 81pts each season and not that of 82pts which is technically the PPG line.

Staal put up 50 points this season in only 62 games. He also only put up 7 total points on the powerplay while seeing less then 2 minutes of PP time a game. For comparison sake someone like Grabovski was seeing 3 minutes a game. I think with a enlarged role, more PP time and better linemates 65-70pts is a very realistic line for Staal going forward. What exactly is wrong with that when you factor in the defensive play, size and grit he would bring to this teams top 6? Sure he wouldnt be a PPG C but his strengths actually match up really well with Kessel/Lupuls shortcomings.
You don't have to sell me that he would be better than what they have, just that to commit to Staal would probably cost them Galchenyuk and rule out going after Getzlaf next year. If he isn't a #1 guy (maybe he cant run a pp) they can maybe drop him down to #2 and move Grabo, but that puts them back in the hunt for a true #1 center again. I would prefer that if they are trading their chits for a #1 they used their one shot on a player who has proven a bit more.

If you are a real fan of the Staal idea, how do they get him at the draft with a guarantee of an extension if they aren't allowed to talk extension until July 1st? Not trying to be a smart ass but I think nobody can do extensions before that date, unless they can negotiate but just not sign.

nuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.