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Getting younger as a team..

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Old
05-07-2012, 05:51 PM
  #1
RedWinged
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Getting younger as a team..

Assuming ideal case scenario, If we add :

Brendan Smith
Gustav Nyquist
Ryan Suter
Zach Parise

Is that enough new blood to rejuvenate the team and get it kick started for 2013 SC..and also set us up for the future or do we need more?

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05-07-2012, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWinged View Post
Assuming ideal case scenario, If we add :

Brendan Smith
Gustav Nyquist
Ryan Suter
Zach Parise

Is that enough new blood to rejuvenate the team and get it kick started for 2013 SC..and also set us up for the future or do we need more?
That looks like enough, but we'll have a lot more youth to add over the next few years, too.

We're just in a transition period right now. The sooner the young blood gets in, the better.

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05-07-2012, 06:58 PM
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19 for president
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Yes because it helps address the issue of size and speed on this team. If the Wings were to ice a team like:

Parise-Datsyuk-Nyquist
Flip-Zetterberg-Franzen
Cleary-Helm-Eaves
Mursak-Abdelkader-Bertuzzi

Thats a significantly faster forward group then last year plus it gives the Wings 2 star players on each of the top 2 lines. Cleary should be healthy by the beginning of next year, as he will probably be getting surgery soon. Eaves, Helm, and Mursak add a lot of speed to the lineup and Parise/ Nyquist aren't slouches either. The only thing I don't love about this lineup is Abs as a 4th line center. Give me a legit center like Konopka and move Abs to the Wing and you have a fantastic lineup. Still doesn't have a ton of size but the speed will make up for that. Thats a team that can play a transition game again.


Suter-Kronwall
Ericsson- White
Smith- Quincey

or

Suter- Krownall
Lids-White
Ericsson- Smith

Have a D that has a lot more size and nastiness to it than in previous years. Suter can handle the big forwards, which Lids cannot. If Quincey is still on this team, he'll have a full year to settle into his role, which I think will be more of a defensive one. Smith adds a legit shot to the 2nd unit PP, and Suter is a solid if unspectacular PP guy. Plus on that 2nd group the only slow skater would be Lids and the first group has all above average skaters.

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05-07-2012, 07:36 PM
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The only thing I don't love about this lineup is Abs as a 4th line center. Give me a legit center like Konopka and move Abs to the Wing and you have a fantastic lineup. Still doesn't have a ton of size but the speed will make up for that. Thats a team that can play a transition game again.
If you get a legit 4th line center, I'd rather have Miller than Abby. Miller pots more goals and just seems to have better hockey sense.

Overall though, I think those 2 calls ups and those 2 acquisitions changes the team significantly. It makes us faster, younger, hopefully hungrier. And it adds a ton of skill. Plus it makes our depth just that much better, being able to use Bert/Cleary on the bottom6 instead of trying to shoehorn them into the top6. They're good, but not legit top6 good. They're more than good enough for the bottom6 and that's where they belong. Makes our whole team better/faster being able to drop Hudler, Homer, Emmerton.

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05-07-2012, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 19 for president View Post
Suter can handle the big forwards, which Lids cannot.
Que?

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05-07-2012, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 19 for president View Post
Yes because it helps address the issue of size and speed on this team. If the Wings were to ice a team like:

Parise-Datsyuk-Nyquist
Flip-Zetterberg-Franzen
Cleary-Helm-Eaves
Mursak-Abdelkader-Bertuzzi

Thats a significantly faster forward group then last year plus it gives the Wings 2 star players on each of the top 2 lines. Cleary should be healthy by the beginning of next year, as he will probably be getting surgery soon. Eaves, Helm, and Mursak add a lot of speed to the lineup and Parise/ Nyquist aren't slouches either. The only thing I don't love about this lineup is Abs as a 4th line center. Give me a legit center like Konopka and move Abs to the Wing and you have a fantastic lineup. Still doesn't have a ton of size but the speed will make up for that. Thats a team that can play a transition game again.


Suter-Kronwall
Ericsson- White
Smith- Quincey

or

Suter- Krownall
Lids-White
Ericsson- Smith

Have a D that has a lot more size and nastiness to it than in previous years. Suter can handle the big forwards, which Lids cannot. If Quincey is still on this team, he'll have a full year to settle into his role, which I think will be more of a defensive one. Smith adds a legit shot to the 2nd unit PP, and Suter is a solid if unspectacular PP guy. Plus on that 2nd group the only slow skater would be Lids and the first group has all above average skaters.
I agree, except for the lineup. Firstly, Eaves may never play again, and if he does come back will likely be on the 4th line, with Bert on the 3rd. Miller would probably be 2nd choice on the 3rd line, before Eaves.

If Lids is back Quincey will still likely be here since we could probably still afford him and SUTER & PARISE, while Smith rotates for the 6th spot. Kindl is likely the odd man out. As stated in 1,000 other posts, Kenny won't likely dump him so soon after giving up a 1st to reacquire him. Also he is a solid #3 or #4 on most teams, and adds excellent depth, PP, PK, ES, size, grit, youth, skating...let's give him more time to gel with the team and a consistent partner before we run him out of town.

If Cleary is healthy by training camp, then he could possibly be rotated with Nyquist on the top line who still has to earn his spot. Besides a rookie with 2 all world forwards might inflate his numbers/stats on his next contract. Maybe do Cleary on the 1st line at home, and with bigger/stronger/top 8 teams, and do Nyquist on the 1st line for road games, and smaller/weaker/less talented teams...just a thought.

Bert adds nice size & scoring to a 3rd line with Helm & (Nyquist/Cleary)
Yes to Konopka if we can get him.



Nyquist/Cleary-Datsuk-PARISE/SEMIN
Flip-Z-Franzen
Nyquist/Cleary-Helm-Bert
Miller-Konopka-Abdelkader
Eaves, Mursak

SUTER-Kronwall
Lids-White
Quincey-Ericsson
Smith

OR

SUTER-Kronwall
Quincey-White
Smith-Ericsson
Kindl

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05-07-2012, 10:48 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Que?
When Lids was in his prime he could handle big fast forwards because he was fantastic positionally. Usually he had the puck poked off of their sticks before they even got to the net. This was true both on odd man rushes and when teams were trying to get pucks out from behind the net to the front on the PP.

This past year Lids got beat a lot on plays where he was supposed to take the player going to the front of the net. He never used to have to physically engage them because his stick and positioning were so amazing. Now he does and he gets beat, because Nick is not a physical dman. His game was always about getting to the position before the opposing player. I'm not saying he is a bad defensive dman all of a sudden but he needs help.

Suter is more of your standard wack and hack type dman. He also is great positionally as well (usually... ignoring the Dats goal). Plus in general I don't want Lids (if he comes back) taking the beating that a number 1 dman takes. I'd rather save him for the PP and ES play.

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05-07-2012, 11:08 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by DATS-O-MATIC View Post
I agree, except for the lineup. Firstly, Eaves may never play again, and if he does come back will likely be on the 4th line, with Bert on the 3rd. Miller would probably be 2nd choice on the 3rd line, before Eaves.

If Lids is back Quincey will still likely be here since we could probably still afford him and SUTER & PARISE, while Smith rotates for the 6th spot. Kindl is likely the odd man out. As stated in 1,000 other posts, Kenny won't likely dump him so soon after giving up a 1st to reacquire him. Also he is a solid #3 or #4 on most teams, and adds excellent depth, PP, PK, ES, size, grit, youth, skating...let's give him more time to gel with the team and a consistent partner before we run him out of town.

If Cleary is healthy by training camp, then he could possibly be rotated with Nyquist on the top line who still has to earn his spot. Besides a rookie with 2 all world forwards might inflate his numbers/stats on his next contract. Maybe do Cleary on the 1st line at home, and with bigger/stronger/top 8 teams, and do Nyquist on the 1st line for road games, and smaller/weaker/less talented teams...just a thought.

Bert adds nice size & scoring to a 3rd line with Helm & (Nyquist/Cleary)
Yes to Konopka if we can get him.



Nyquist/Cleary-Datsuk-PARISE/SEMIN
Flip-Z-Franzen
Nyquist/Cleary-Helm-Bert
Miller-Konopka-Abdelkader
Eaves, Mursak

I agree on Eaves. I was working under the assumption that both he and Cleary were healthy.

I could definitely see a Nyquist-Helm-Bert third line. Babs seems to like Nyquist though so I think if he has a strong camp we might see him on a top line. I mean he was getting some top line minutes in the playoffs as a 10 game rookie. Its not like he just played him a minute or two a game. He could have easily bumped up Miller, Abs, Homer, etc but chose to try Nyquist. When Babs likes young guys he does give them chances. Helm was playing key minutes es and on the PK shortly after being inserted in the lineup. Flip moved up quite quickly and was given important minutes as well. If a player shows that he is a good two way player, Babs will give him minutes. The Wings just haven't had a lot of those lately. Hudler, Kindl, Emmerton, Mursak were all players with major flaws. Nyquist (minus strength) doesn't have those issues.

As for the D. If Lids comes back I don't see both of White and Quincey remaining on this team. I think Babs likes Smith way too much to potentially stonewall him out of a top 4 spot in a year or two, and 3+ mil is way too much to pay for a 3rd pair dman. I think Quincey was brought in to see if he could be better than Ericsson and in case Lids and Stuart leave, and we can't get a top flight dman. Quincey isn't a long term plan dman, and got outplayed severely by Ericsson. A 3 mil Quincey simply isn't worth it if he isn't getting PP time (Lids, Kronwall, Suter, and White). He's an ok pker but I think if the Wings want to go with a stacked D, they'd be better off dealing him and bringing in a pure PK guy. Yes Holland just traded a first for him, but this was done to prevent a worst case senario situation. Lids retires, Stuart leaves, Wings can't get any better replacements, which could happen considering the UFA crop. If he ends up with the best case scenario of Lids and Suter, however, and he can get a 2nd for him later in the summer, I think he'd trade him.

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05-07-2012, 11:14 PM
  #9
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I know it's boring but really I think our #1 priority should be finding a way to make this team give a damn and skate. Until that happens we could all be 22 years old and it wouldn't matter.

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05-07-2012, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
I know it's boring but really I think our #1 priority should be finding a way to make this team give a damn and skate. Until that happens we could all be 22 years old and it wouldn't matter.
id like to be 22 years old again

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05-07-2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 19 for president View Post
When Lids was in his prime he could handle big fast forwards because he was fantastic positionally. Usually he had the puck poked off of their sticks before they even got to the net. This was true both on odd man rushes and when teams were trying to get pucks out from behind the net to the front on the PP.

This past year Lids got beat a lot on plays where he was supposed to take the player going to the front of the net. He never used to have to physically engage them because his stick and positioning were so amazing. Now he does and he gets beat, because Nick is not a physical dman. His game was always about getting to the position before the opposing player. I'm not saying he is a bad defensive dman all of a sudden but he needs help.

Suter is more of your standard wack and hack type dman. He also is great positionally as well (usually... ignoring the Dats goal). Plus in general I don't want Lids (if he comes back) taking the beating that a number 1 dman takes. I'd rather save him for the PP and ES play.
I don't really disagree on any of the Lidstrom stuff, and I like Suter, but I don't think Suter is really any better at handling big forwards than Lids. Maybe a little, but enough to say flat out that he can handle big forwards and Lids cannot. It's one of the few weaknesses in Suter's game actually. Like Lidstrom, he depends a lot on his positional play, but if that slips, he gets abused by bigger forwards. It's one of the reasons he and Weber make such a good pair.

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05-07-2012, 11:36 PM
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The problem with the Wings' situation is that you only get younger as a team for the sake of it if you have given up on winning in the short run and want to win in the long run since really getting younger is just another way of saying getting betterfour years down the road.

But obviously Parise, Suter or any other big name acquisition would be made with the purpose of winning soon, very soon. Those players wouldn't sign with us for a rebuild and if they are as good as advertised, you may well have another window of opportunity. But if none of those guys join the Wings, you might very well look at a window shut good and proper and indeed then it might be time to get younger.

So it really all hinges on what happens in July.

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05-07-2012, 11:43 PM
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The problem with the Wings' situation is that you only get younger as a team for the sake of it if you have given up on winning in the short run and want to win in the long run since really getting younger is just another way of saying getting betterfour years down the road.
Yeah, the Oilers LOVE to play their youth. Just love it.

3rd straight #1 overall pick!

But they'll be scary... one day.

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05-08-2012, 12:08 AM
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Yeah, the Oilers LOVE to play their youth. Just love it.

3rd straight #1 overall pick!

But they'll be scary... one day.
It worked for Pittsburgh and Chicago, to a lesser extent for Washington as well. Those teams got relatively lucky that Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Toews, OV and Backstrom turned into big stars very quickly as very young players.

Whether it will work for the Oilers is a different matter, it remains to be seen if at least two of Nugent-Hopkins, Hall, the Russian they will draft this year, Gagner, MPS or Eberle turn into big stars but if they do, they *will* be one of the better teams in the league within 5 years barring a complete managerial collapse otherwise.

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05-08-2012, 12:40 AM
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If you get a legit 4th line center, I'd rather have Miller than Abby. Miller pots more goals and just seems to have better hockey sense.

Overall though, I think those 2 calls ups and those 2 acquisitions changes the team significantly. It makes us faster, younger, hopefully hungrier. And it adds a ton of skill. Plus it makes our depth just that much better, being able to use Bert/Cleary on the bottom6 instead of trying to shoehorn them into the top6. They're good, but not legit top6 good. They're more than good enough for the bottom6 and that's where they belong. Makes our whole team better/faster being able to drop Hudler, Homer, Emmerton.
Konopka would be a great 4th line center flanked by Miller and Abs.

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05-08-2012, 01:22 AM
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It worked for Pittsburgh and Chicago, to a lesser extent for Washington as well. Those teams got relatively lucky that Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Toews, OV and Backstrom turned into big stars very quickly as very young players.

Whether it will work for the Oilers is a different matter, it remains to be seen if at least two of Nugent-Hopkins, Hall, the Russian they will draft this year, Gagner, MPS or Eberle turn into big stars but if they do, they *will* be one of the better teams in the league within 5 years barring a complete managerial collapse otherwise.
Yeah I think that's pretty obvious. If you're terrible for that long, you're going to pile up some elite talent.

My point was that even if you're playing LITERALLY top picks, "youth" can be a total disaster. Like the Oilers. They were supposed to be good years ago with the picks they were getting, but even with RNH and Hall in the lineup they secured ANOTHER #1 overall pick. Great success, I guess. If it weren't for a draft system that tried to put them back on top the fans would have rioted.

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05-08-2012, 05:28 AM
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I can't help but every time I see a Capgeek lineup with both Parise and Suter in it. If it happens, by all means call me out, but getting 1 of them will be tough enough.

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05-08-2012, 06:27 AM
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I can't help but every time I see a Capgeek lineup with both Parise and Suter in it. If it happens, by all means call me out, but getting 1 of them will be tough enough.
Couldn't agree more.

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05-08-2012, 07:16 AM
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If Lidstrom returns, I'm not sure I want Suter to come here.

I'd rather see Smith get a good chunk of those minutes, and learn from Lidstrom. Suter didn't really impress in the 2nd round.

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05-08-2012, 08:47 AM
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If Lidstrom returns, I'm not sure I want Suter to come here.

I'd rather see Smith get a good chunk of those minutes, and learn from Lidstrom. Suter didn't really impress in the 2nd round.
I see what you're saying, but you need more than one good defenseman long-term. Smith may one day be a great defenseman, but even if Lidstrom comes back it'll only be for one year, which means we still need to replace him quick. Suter is a great opportunity and there probably won't be another quality UFA class for a few years. You miss out on Suter (or some other defenseman) and then you're in trouble next off-season when Lidstrom retires.

So for this season, Suter would be just be insurance if Lidstrom comes back, but once Lidstrom is gone he'd likely be the backbone of the D-corps with Kronwall.

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05-08-2012, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kronwalled55 View Post
I can't help but every time I see a Capgeek lineup with both Parise and Suter in it. If it happens, by all means call me out, but getting 1 of them will be tough enough.
This.

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05-08-2012, 10:56 AM
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If Lidstrom returns, I'm not sure I want Suter to come here.

I'd rather see Smith get a good chunk of those minutes, and learn from Lidstrom. Suter didn't really impress in the 2nd round.
I am curious since we have actually tried the Kronwall and Lidstrom pairing. But I cannot imagine a lineup with all three for a very simple reason. All guys for substantial time periods now are deployed on the left. With Suter and Lidstrom maybe one of them could play the right, but we know Kronwall doesn't and I assume Lidstrom doesn't because he hasn't a whole lot in his 20 year hall of fame career. So can Suter? If the answer is all three guys want the left side of the ice it becomes a serious question of how Babcock divides up the ice time. To have Lidstrom's heir apparent in Suter already here makes it worth it, but how they lineup will be deployed is a huge question if they have all three.

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05-08-2012, 04:51 PM
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just saying. we dont have to get younger we have to get better. so what does that mean?
of course we have to get faster as a team. putting helm in there doesnt help much on the other 3 lines. so get rid of bert, cleary, holmstrom, hudler and 2 or 3 other guys.
we need to be more agressive with the will to win. get rid of lazy player. thats all of the mentioned player as well.
our defense didnt help howard at all. send 2-3 player to where ever and get some defender.
what do we need? around 7-10 player asap. i dont say its realistic. especially when ken "cant trade nothing" holland is your manager.
watch other teams what they did in the last 3-4 years. the trend is heading more to a team instead of 2-3 superstars with garbage around. the kings are a perfect example. their top 4 defender are top 4 defender but they are working as a team or as a unit and have some size and the will to win. doughty and voynov are very talented and young. we dont have nothing even close to that combo. we have talented and old&slow or young and garbage.
kings have talented young elite forwards in brown, carter & mighty kopitar.
kings bottom 6 would beat our bottom 6 every single day. the are fight like hell and are not willing to give up.
all our forwards we have are datsyuk and sometimes zetterberg. we can maybe still sqeeze one or two years out of them but thats it.
our bottom 6 can be replaced by every single ufa out there and u wouldnt notice it.
the wings should get faster, more mobile and more agressive. its really hard to watch hudler in a foot race vs a opponent and cheer for him. i feel more sorry for player like holmstrom, bert, cleary and hudler.
so start to learn from other teams. the wings are no longer the center of gravity in the nhl.

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05-08-2012, 05:04 PM
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so get rid of bert, cleary, holmstrom, hudler and 2 or 3 other guys.
Which other guys?

Quote:
our defense didnt help howard at all. send 2-3 player to where ever and get some defender.
Which players and where are we going to send them???

Quote:
what do we need? around 7-10 player asap. i dont say its realistic. especially when ken "cant trade nothing" holland is your manager.
No, we don't.

Quote:
watch other teams what they did in the last 3-4 years. the trend is heading more to a team instead of 2-3 superstars with garbage around. the kings are a perfect example. their top 4 defender are top 4 defender but they are working as a team or as a unit and have some size and the will to win. doughty and voynov are very talented and young. we dont have nothing even close to that combo. we have talented and old&slow or young and garbage.
kings have talented young elite forwards in brown, carter & mighty kopitar.
kings bottom 6 would beat our bottom 6 every single day. the are fight like hell and are not willing to give up.
I knew the post was leading to holding the Kings up as a shining example of what Detroit should be. Why LA? Three other teams - Nashville, St. Louis and Phoenix - made it to the second round. What can we do to be more like them?

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05-08-2012, 06:01 PM
  #25
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2015-16
Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Franzen
Nyquist-Flippula-Jurco
Jarnkrok-Sheahan-Pulkkinen
Abdelkader-Helm-Mursak

Suter-Kronwall
Smith-Ericsson
Kindl-Quincey

Howard

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