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HSP missing some SHG - is this common?

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07-16-2016, 04:26 AM
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seventieslord
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HSP missing some SHG - is this common?

pasting from my MLD bio for Bob Turner:

Quote:
note: the HSP is missing at least one Turner SHP (and who knows how many more). I noticed in a newspaper summary that it mentioned Turner scored while Bill Hay was in the box. I decided to check the sheet on the HSP and sure enough, it's listed as an ESG. But look at the times - it's clear it was shorthanded: http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19620047
I'm worried about how common this type of thing may be, considering this is the one and only time I've seen a goal "anecdotally" noted to be shorthanded and went to verify that on the game sheet at the HSP, and found that it was incorrectly listed as even strength.

If this is indeed common, I'm willing to do some work to sort it out, at least for pre-expansion players. Post-expansion this seems to be fixed, as the SHP scored seems to begin to soar around that time. But I've got this feeling that 1953-1967 is missing some data.

But I have no idea how to create the scripts similar to the ones that were used to generate the spreadsheet that's floating around showing who scored their points in which situations. Whoever knows how to do those scripts could probably also figure out how to use the penalty times and goal times to generate a list of "possible" SHG which I could then go through one by one and decide whether they should be called SHG or not.

Who's able to help?

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07-16-2016, 10:52 AM
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I wish I could help with the query part more - once it's scraped, I'm pretty good.

Which brings me to my hopefully-helpful question: are you going to try scraping the data, or are you going to use the HSP raw files on the Yahoo site?

(If it's the latter, it's probably going to save a lot of work).

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07-16-2016, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
I wish I could help with the query part more - once it's scraped, I'm pretty good.

Which brings me to my hopefully-helpful question: are you going to try scraping the data, or are you going to use the HSP raw files on the Yahoo site?

(If it's the latter, it's probably going to save a lot of work).
I didn't know there was a such thing. That's good to know. I'm probably not going to do the scraping at all since I barely know what that entails. I'm like you - once it's scraped, I'm pretty good. I don't know how it all works, but I imagine it can spit out a list of instances of possible SHG which we'd then have to manually verify (make sure it wasn't from a coincidental or overlapping penalty).

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07-16-2016, 02:54 PM
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Absolutely! First, join the Yahoo group hockey_summary_project (I'm presuming that they accept new members - I was a founding member way back when, when the idea of entering in boxscores from The Sporting News seemed like a fun way to spend the evening).

Go to Files.

Go to NHL Regular Season Data Files (or NHL Playoff Data Files).

Grab a season (zip file).

The files itself are YYYY-penalty.dat and YYYY-goal.dat (DAT is the extension that we use for the data entry tool, but they're just pipe-delimited files).

Then I think it's just a matter of INDEX, MATCH, and OFFSET between the two tables in Excel.

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07-16-2016, 04:49 PM
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seventieslord
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Just realized, this could also fill in the data for shorthanded points before 1953 as well.

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07-16-2016, 05:33 PM
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Pre 1953

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Just realized, this could also fill in the data for shorthanded points before 1953 as well.
Highly unlikely given the state of NHL game summaries in the newspapers.

1950-51 season and before, exact penalty times were not listed, so it is not possible to determine PPs or distinguish SH situations from coincidentals:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...7125%2C2677719

Check the NHL summaries from the games in the link above.

1951-52 NHL season was a bit of a transition season, times were included but the notation was far from what it became for the 1952-53 NHL season. Main difference was that penalties were listed by player as opposed to chronologically. Player with multiple penalties in a period would be listed as example: Richard 2:17, 9:46, 17:05. Would require re-aligning chronologically.

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07-17-2016, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Highly unlikely given the state of NHL game summaries in the newspapers.

1950-51 season and before, exact penalty times were not listed, so it is not possible to determine PPs or distinguish SH situations from coincidentals:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...7125%2C2677719

Check the NHL summaries from the games in the link above.

1951-52 NHL season was a bit of a transition season, times were included but the notation was far from what it became for the 1952-53 NHL season. Main difference was that penalties were listed by player as opposed to chronologically. Player with multiple penalties in a period would be listed as example: Richard 2:17, 9:46, 17:05. Would require re-aligning chronologically.
I don't think that's unique to the pre 1953 era, is it? I think it's just how newspapers tended to publish summaries. I'm sure I've seen many from the 60s just like that.

Looking at the HSP in its current state, I think the only reason we have "complete" special teams scoring data for 1953 and on, is because 1953 is the earliest season from which a consecutive string to the present can be formed. I hope the data in those earlier sheets is more usable than you're assuming.

On another note, does anyone know whether the goal of the HSP is to properly list all the game's events (in which case improperly termed goals should be found and fixed), or to accurately recreate the game's summary sheet, errors and all?

Also, is the reason progress has slowed down because the nhl plans to release all the game sheets next year?


Last edited by seventieslord: 07-17-2016 at 02:01 PM.
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07-18-2016, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
On another note, does anyone know whether the goal of the HSP is to properly list all the game's events (in which case improperly termed goals should be found and fixed), or to accurately recreate the game's summary sheet, errors and all?
I don't know the official "mission" (and don't see one listed), although they've been quite open to me making corrections when I find items (typically mentioned here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1610265).

There's actually an interesting discussion going on in the SIHR e-mail list about the appropriateness of "correcting the record".

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Also, is the reason progress has slowed down because the nhl plans to release all the game sheets next year?
My guess is that there just isn't someone currently carrying the flag - there's been very little chatter.

The game sheets boon doesn't help, of course; I'm 90% optimistic, although if the official game sheets are similar to what the Penguins released, I think they will be helpful but not the holy grail.

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