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4th overall pick

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Old
05-08-2012, 06:37 PM
  #26
hockeyball
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Should I repost the link, from Snow's comments from 2 weeks ago?

I know,how dare Snow with his tight budget restrictions,worry about keeping this high salaried players once they become ufas
This is a thread about the value of the #4 pick, not the unavailability of the #4 pick. The point is to find out what the Isles COULD get for the #4 pick, not a prediction of what they will get.

You will not get a more developed player of the same caliber as the player potentially drafted at that spot, it makes zero sense. If you are trading the #4 pick you are doing so for established talent.

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05-08-2012, 06:40 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Even better, i'd love to hear an example of that EVER happening (and if it has happened, how it worked out for both teams).

it just makes no sense. You trade picks for established players, thats it. Teams don't trade high value players (Pavelski) for picks unless theres some kind of strife, and teams don't trade high picks for low value players generally (though it happens).

As a for instance:

To NYI:
Joe Pavelski
16th overall

To SJ:
Kyle Okposo
Brock Nelson
4th overall

That kind of thing would make sense, JP is a 60-70p 2nd line two-way center on a $4m contract, the value coming back has to be excellent for us to have any reason to move him. I'd move JT, Clowe, and Marleau before I'd move JP or Couture as I see them as our future #1-#2 centers.
Mayby Okposo and Nelson for Pavelski but take away the picks. IMO the 4th overall carries way more value than the 16th....I see what your saying though but From a NYI POV I would not make that trade.

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Old
05-08-2012, 06:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
This is a thread about the value of the #4 pick, not the unavailability of the #4 pick. The point is to find out what the Isles COULD get for the #4 pick, not a prediction of what they will get.

You will not get a more developed player of the same caliber as the player potentially drafted at that spot, it makes zero sense. If you are trading the #4 pick you are doing so for established talent.
I agree that logically it does not make sense but as others have stated some teams are offense loaded and some defense....So say that the Isles who are deep in offensive young talent want a young established defender, then they call a team rich in defense but in need of offense and offer the 4th for an established player....It also depends who is on the board and what the other team thinks of the player.Say forsberg is on the board and the team so happens to have him rated as a potential stud top line winger, they might be willing to trade a young defensman with upside for the offensive help.



IMO I would rather keep the pick and Draft Murray...

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Old
05-08-2012, 06:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by StrongIslanders90 View Post
Mayby Okposo and Nelson for Pavelski but take away the picks. IMO the 4th overall carries way more value than the 16th....I see what your saying though but From a NYI POV I would not make that trade.
While I understand your point of view, the Sharks laugh at the trade without the picks. Okposo is a very good player and I'd be very interested in him, but Pavelski is a much better player and he's only 3 years older. Nelson is also a good prospect, but he's not a deal-breaker when it comes to a player of Pavelski's caliber.

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05-08-2012, 06:53 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
While I understand your point of view, the Sharks laugh at the trade without the picks. Okposo is a very good player and I'd be very interested in him, but Pavelski is a much better player and he's only 3 years older. Nelson is also a good prospect, but he's not a deal-breaker when it comes to a player of Pavelski's caliber.
Fair enough

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Old
05-08-2012, 07:10 PM
  #31
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This is a thread about the value of the #4 pick, not the unavailability of the #4 pick. The point is to find out what the Isles COULD get for the #4 pick, not a prediction of what they will get.
I didn't realize armchair gms wishes, carried any weight:amazed
Here I thought Snow's trade demand was what mattered


Quote:
You will not get a more developed player of the same caliber as the player potentially drafted at that spot, it makes zero sense. If you are trading the #4 pick you are doing so for established talent.
Considering Snow's comments and past actions,plus the reports from Botta/Staples/Strang,I doubt the 4th overall ends up dealt.

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05-08-2012, 07:17 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
While I understand your point of view, the Sharks laugh at the trade without the picks. Okposo is a very good player and I'd be very interested in him, but Pavelski is a much better player and he's only 3 years older. Nelson is also a good prospect, but he's not a deal-breaker when it comes to a player of Pavelski's caliber.

Considering the Isles would have Pavelski's rights, for only 2 yrs,I doubt Snow would be in the mix.
the inconsistent Okposo just turned 24,just had a career high 24 goal season.He made $1m this season and is signed to a team friendly 5 yr deal,that has another 4 yrs.

Isles are high on Nelson,who'll have his first season in either Bridgeport or on LI.

Zero interest in trading down from 4th to 16th.


Last edited by CREW99AW: 05-08-2012 at 07:24 PM.
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Old
05-08-2012, 07:24 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Would you actually trade 4th overall for JVR? Or Gormley/Rundblad?
Who cares what message board fans would do.

The question is,do Snow and his scouts think Nino + Brock Nelson are gonna develop into top 6 powerforwards or are they be looking at youngster like JVR?

Do Snow and his scouts think Gormley/Rundblad potential is on the same level as Murray/Dumba?

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05-08-2012, 07:37 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Even better, i'd love to hear an example of that EVER happening (and if it has happened, how it worked out for both teams).

it just makes no sense. You trade picks for established players, thats it. Teams don't trade high value players (Pavelski) for picks unless theres some kind of strife, and teams don't trade high picks for low value players generally (though it happens).

As a for instance:

To NYI:
Joe Pavelski
16th overall

To SJ:
Kyle Okposo
Brock Nelson
4th overall

That kind of thing would make sense, JP is a 60-70p 2nd line two-way center on a $4m contract, the value coming back has to be excellent for us to have any reason to move him. I'd move JT, Clowe, and Marleau before I'd move JP or Couture as I see them as our future #1-#2 centers.
How is this not considered trolling. You wouldn't get much more than Okposo + for Pavelski. What a horrible proposal

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Old
05-08-2012, 07:39 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
While I understand your point of view, the Sharks laugh at the trade without the picks. Okposo is a very good player and I'd be very interested in him, but Pavelski is a much better player and he's only 3 years older. Nelson is also a good prospect, but he's not a deal-breaker when it comes to a player of Pavelski's caliber.
Explain why the Sharks laugh at the trade without picks? How good do you really think Joe Pavelski is? He's a very nice player but it seems to me like you think he's a star, which of course we all know he is not

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05-08-2012, 07:42 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by LotteryForLife View Post
Explain why the Sharks laugh at the trade without picks? How good do you really think Joe Pavelski is? He's a very nice player but it seems to me like you think he's a star, which of course we all know he is not
He's not a star. But he's every bit as good as Mike Richards, and look what Richards got.

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05-08-2012, 08:06 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
He's not a star. But he's every bit as good as Mike Richards, and look what Richards got.
Richards is signed to a team friendly,longterm deal.
Pavelski is a ufa in 2 seasons.

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05-08-2012, 08:15 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Richards is signed to a team friendly,longterm deal.
Pavelski is a ufa in 2 seasons.
Ricahrds is signed at almost $6M per with an NMC until he's 35 years old. I don't see how that contract can be a plus to anyone, including the Islanders. Pavelski won't take more than $5M to re-sign.

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05-08-2012, 08:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Ricahrds is signed at almost $6M per with an NMC until he's 35 years old. I don't see how that contract can be a plus to anyone, including the Islanders. Pavelski won't take more than $5M to re-sign.
Richards makes $5.75m.
Tavares' new deal will average $5.5m.

I'd have no complaint with a player as talented as Richards,making $5.75m.

As for Pavelski...the Isles barely spend above the cap floor,haven't made the playoffs since 2007,are facing relocation in 2015 and their arena has an asbestos lawsuit,please don't tell NYI fans how it'd be no problem to resign him.Seriously.

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05-09-2012, 09:29 AM
  #40
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If I am Garth Snow and I am offered the the Clowe, Vlasic, 16th overall package for the 4th overall pick, I think I would do it despite the contract status'. I would hate to move that far down but say Murray is your guy and he goes off the board at 2 or 3, then if I'm not in love with the next guy I may move down.

I feel that the Isle's are in a position where they are never going to get over the hump without taking some chances on guys. You would have a window to work with Clowe and Vlasic on an extension and if it isn't making progress you still have the chance to get a return for them at the deadline if you are out of the race. If there in the hunt of making the playoffs then the move pays off to an extent.

Again, all this would be contingent on the Islanders at four feeling like their guys are off the board.

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05-09-2012, 10:23 AM
  #41
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If I am Garth Snow and I am offered the the Clowe, Vlasic, 16th overall package for the 4th overall pick, I think I would do it despite the contract status'. I would hate to move that far down but say Murray is your guy and he goes off the board at 2 or 3, then if I'm not in love with the next guy I may move down.
Both Clowe and Vlasic are ufas next summer and the NYI owner has closed his checkbokk.So,Snow should ignore the team's budget realities?

Quote:
I feel that the Isle's are in a position where they are never going to get over the hump without taking some chances on guys. You would have a window to work with Clowe and Vlasic on an extension and if it isn't making progress you still have the chance to get a return for them at the deadline if you are out of the race. If there in the hunt of making the playoffs then the move pays off to an extent.
What's Snow's sales pitch?
Ignore higher offers because we really want you to stay?
The isles haven't made the playoffs since 2007?
The team barely speding above the cap floor?
Or maybe the relocation threat appeals to Clowe and Vlasic ?
The arena's asbestos lawsuit?


Zero interest in trading a top 4 pick and top prospects for rentals.At next season's trade deadline,no high lottery team, is going to be in the mix for impeding ufas.Isles would be buying high and selling low.

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Old
05-10-2012, 10:39 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Trading for a high pick like this is tricky.

Say for instance I offered you Joe Pavelski, the problem with that is Joe Pavelski is already a guaranteed star caliber player, that odds of that pick being as good as Joe Pavelski in the future is a toss-up, so why take the risk?

Point being you are not going to get other young star players because the draft is not good enough.

So what about a package, or trade down. I could offer you Clowe + Murray + our 1st (~16th overall), and that would fill needs for the Isle, but you would probably reject it because of their age and contract status. If I offer you lesser players you are trading quality for quantity, why do that in this situation? You don't need depth, and that draft pick is going to be cheaper longer.

So that leaves one option, a superstar trade (which Isles would need to add to quite a bit because of the quality of the players available at #4, plus it would need to be a team that doesn't already have a high draft pick AND is about to rebuild, slim pickin's).

I think the best thing the Sharks could offer would be Boyle for the 1st and a prospect. Thornton and Marleau wouldn't waive for NYI (unless they have some kind of window in their clause we don't know about like Heatley, which is possible) and would require significant adds to the pick.

Just saying, its not an easy thing to do.
SJ fans are not gonna like this.... any maybe other fanbases....... but i dont think joey would be enough.... and the second offer isnt any better....... however i do understand the point that alot of NTCs wont want to go to the Ile (of coarse most NTCs are older and want to win now)

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05-10-2012, 10:47 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I don't know what fans on message boards would offer,but in each of the past 2-3 drafts,NY press says Snow has demanded a young player, who's upside is similar to the players expected to be on the board when Snow drafts.

So,who has a cheap,young stud to offer for the 4th overall?

Im mildly drunk but it seems like the best out of a prospect you will get from a pick will be someone else who is unproven(to a degree) Id see the tops being a kadri or someone of similar status..... The team is probably better off taking the pick or to take a pick + prospect proposal from another team looking to move up....... ie 15th plus eakin (not sure where that colorado pick ended up truthfully might be higher than 15th not to mention not fair valuewise)

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05-10-2012, 10:48 PM
  #44
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would the islanders be interested in 2 of Alec Martinez Jonathan Bernier or Andrei Loktionov open to a counter offer as well. This trade would only happen if forsberg is available

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Old
05-10-2012, 11:22 PM
  #45
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Im mildly drunk but it seems like the best out of a prospect you will get from a pick will be someone else who is unproven(to a degree) Id see the tops being a kadri or someone of similar status..... The team is probably better off taking the pick or to take a pick + prospect proposal from another team looking to move up....... ie 15th plus eakin (not sure where that colorado pick ended up truthfully might be higher than 15th not to mention not fair valuewise)
Since Snow's reportedly kicked the tires on trades involving his high lottery picks, in each of the last three drafts and ended up keeping the pick,I'm not expecting this yr's pick to be dealt.

Snow's not looking to land 2-3 less talented players.Want to draft a young stud at 4th overall?Then offer up a young stud or potential stud in return.

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Old
05-10-2012, 11:26 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
would the islanders be interested in 2 of Alec Martinez Jonathan Bernier or Andrei Loktionov open to a counter offer as well. This trade would only happen if forsberg is available

Snow's already said he's sticking with his youth movement.Isles are happy with the way Nilson and Poulin are developing.
And I'd rather see Snow draft one of Murray/Dumba/Forsberg/Galchenyuk then add
Martinez or Loktionov

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Old
05-10-2012, 11:40 PM
  #47
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Well not like any of them are old and they can step in and contribute right away but i understand the potential of the Murray/Dumba/Forsberg/Galchenyuk pick being more atractive after all im trying to get the pick for forsberg myself

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Old
05-11-2012, 02:54 AM
  #48
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the only idiot that would give into garths demands for his 4th overall pick would be milbury.
( i love milbury in the studio......but i hated him as a GM......)

if murray is off the board by 4th, trade down and get rienhart plus.

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05-12-2012, 06:26 PM
  #49
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curious would islanders trade 4th for lucic?

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Old
05-12-2012, 07:08 PM
  #50
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curious would islanders trade 4th for lucic?
He's 2 yrs from unrestricted free agency.

Snow's gonna want a player, who's rights he'll have for several yrs.Ever since the whole Cryin Ryan episode,Snow's paid closer attention to unrestricted free agency in deals.

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