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Which system do you prefer?

View Poll Results: Which system do you prefer?
Lavy's (Capitals pond hockey) 46 54.76%
Defense First (something that resembles forwards playing some sort of defensive system) 38 45.24%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-26-2012, 12:53 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Oh, and while we are at it, let's compare the success that the Flyers have had in the playoffs with their terrible, despicable pond-hockey system compared to New York under Torts and his divine and omnipotent defensive system

Lavi and Flyers:

1) Finals Appearance
2) Second Round
2) Second Round

Torts and Rangers:

1) First Round
2) Missed entirely
3) First Round
4) Conference Finals

That's weird. Lavi has performed better than Torts, even though Torts plays a highly defensive system in New York.
with much better goaltending to boot.
its quite obvious its a fluke situation

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05-26-2012, 01:00 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Oh, and while we are at it, let's compare the success that the Flyers have had in the playoffs with their terrible, despicable pond-hockey system compared to New York under Torts and his divine and omnipotent defensive system

Lavi and Flyers:

1) Finals Appearance
2) Second Round
2) Second Round
Only team to have been in the 2nd round for the 3rd year running, mind you.

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05-26-2012, 01:41 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Only team to have been in the 2nd round for the 3rd year running, mind you.
Which is pretty awesome but to be fair the rangers didn't start selling out for D till this past year

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05-26-2012, 06:55 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
with much better goaltending to boot.
its quite obvious its a fluke situation
You left out the fact that Lavy has gone backwards since he got here and Torts has gone forward. Don't let that get in the way of the truth though.

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05-26-2012, 06:56 PM
  #255
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Only team to have been in the 2nd round for the 3rd year running, mind you.
So you're happy going backwards since he took over. That usually means it isn't working and a coach is fired.

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05-26-2012, 07:38 PM
  #256
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You left out the fact that Lavy has gone backwards since he got here and Torts has gone forward. Don't let that get in the way of the truth though.
...after going backwards far enough to miss the playoffs.

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05-26-2012, 07:44 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
...after going backwards far enough to miss the playoffs.
That hasn't happened yet, but if you think that's what it will take for Lavy to get fired you're living in a dream world.

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05-26-2012, 07:50 PM
  #258
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That hasn't happened yet, but if you think that's what it will take for Lavy to get fired you're living in a dream world.
When did I mention him getting fired?

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05-26-2012, 08:10 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
So you're happy going backwards since he took over. That usually means it isn't working and a coach is fired.
On the contrary, they got 1 game further than they did last year. You have not been around here all year - maybe - but I've made the case the team exceeded expectations each of the last two years.

Last year, just by winning a playoff round, did better than the defending runners-up generally do.

This year, after rooting out the foundation of the team, the (reasonable) expectations were to make the playoffs and hopefully win a round. Next year should be the no excuses year, just like 2010 was a no excuses year (demonstrated by the team by firing the coach).

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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
That hasn't happened yet, but if you think that's what it will take for Lavy to get fired you're living in a dream world.
Finally, the other F word. A lot of us are satisfied with the coaching, but I think most of us are not naive enough to think we're not in the back half of Lavy's tenure as coach.

Let's try this way, since you're acting like this is a productive discussion (it's not), we'll leave you the task of suggesting replacement names aka "next" coach of the Flyers. Something a certain other coach-whiners-without-solutions refuse to do.

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05-26-2012, 09:02 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Getting to the second round in the same circumstances after knocking out the team favored to win the Cup is a pretty good accomplishment too...and with a lot of major injuries to boot.
The Rangers were the favorites at the beginning of the playoffs in 95% of the Vegas & offshore books, not Pittsburgh.


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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Lavi plays a version of the left wing lock, though it's more offensive.
No he doesn't. Our left wing never drops back with our defense when the other team is coming out of their zone.

247 posts into this thread you now describe it as a "version of the left wing lock" because Jester said it yesterday? Instead of regurgitating his post, stick to defending Lavy's pond hockey style. At least you would be truthful with yourself.

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
It's perfectly fine for defense, if the players themselves aren't making mistakes. When you have that as many rookies and new faces as the Flyers did, there are going to be mistakes. It was essentially a brand new team this year; it takes a while for people to get on the same page, especially when nearly half the roster is trying to adjust to the NHL as well. How about you give the team another year to see how they grow into it instead of having a tremendous knee-jerk reaction?
It's not a knee jerk reaction, it's based on the last two years as this team had gone backwards since going to the finals with Stevens players.

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
The system Lavi preaches was pretty damned effective defensively during the Finals run, when we had more experienced players who could play defense. This team is very young; no system will magically make them veterans, or stop them from making mistakes due to inexperience.
You can keep defending pond hockey until you're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is it was an aberration in Carolina 06. The Kings are younger than the Flyers, the Rangers barely older. All you bring to the table are excuses.

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05-26-2012, 09:09 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
The Rangers were the favorites at the beginning of the playoffs in 95% of the Vegas & offshore books, not Pittsburgh.




No he doesn't. Our left wing never drops back with our defense when the other team is coming out of their zone.

247 posts into this thread you now describe it as a "version of the left wing lock" because Jester said it yesterday? Instead of regurgitating his post, stick to defending Lavy's pond hockey style. At least you would be truthful with yourself.



It's not a knee jerk reaction, it's based on the last two years as this team had gone backwards since going to the finals with Stevens players.



You can keep defending pond hockey until you're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is it was an aberration in Carolina 06. The Kings are younger than the Flyers, the Rangers barely older. All you bring to the table are excuses.
Jester had a solid point, which is why I brought it back up. Lavi himself described it as a modified version of the left wing lock in interviews. I imagine the coach knows something about what he's coaching.

As for going backwards...They've STILL outperformed almost every other team in the east in the playoffs. 2nd round or beyond 3 years running is something no other team has done. I guess you're going to just continue to ignore that though.

And as for this "aberration," it has been repeatedly been pointed out to you that it simply isn't the case and you're wrong. Why don't you go back and address those posts, instead of ignoring them?

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05-26-2012, 09:39 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Jester had a solid point, which is why I brought it back up. Lavi himself described it as a modified version of the left wing lock in interviews. I imagine the coach knows something about what he's coaching.
He can call it whatever he wants, but the left wing lock is a defense first system and what occurs on the ice isn't anything close to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
As for going backwards...They've STILL outperformed almost every other team in the east in the playoffs. 2nd round or beyond 3 years running is something no other team has done. I guess you're going to just continue to ignore that though.
Already been addressed, read again. When you go to the finals in your first year, and can't get out of the second round the next two, you've gone backwards. Pretty simple to see that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
And as for this "aberration," it has been repeatedly been pointed out to you that it simply isn't the case and you're wrong. Why don't you go back and address those posts, instead of ignoring them?
Again, addressed all of those teams who actually played defense first and won cups as evidenced by their GAA. No other team has won a cup playing anything close to Lavy's system meanwhile defense first teams have won 99.9% of them in the last 25 years or so.

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05-26-2012, 09:43 PM
  #263
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GAA tells you NOTHING about what system was played. It is possible for Lavi's system to be defensively sound...but not with so many rookies. Lets see how things go as they mature.

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05-26-2012, 09:48 PM
  #264
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On the contrary, they got 1 game further than they did last year. You have not been around here all year - maybe - but I've made the case the team exceeded expectations each of the last two years.
Incorrect. They actually were eliminated in the same number of games this year, not one more.

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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Last year, just by winning a playoff round, did better than the defending runners-up generally do.
Didn't realize the bar was set so low. Win one round, great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
This year, after rooting out the foundation of the team, the (reasonable) expectations were to make the playoffs and hopefully win a round. Next year should be the no excuses year, just like 2010 was a no excuses year (demonstrated by the team by firing the coach).
Yeah ok, there wont be any excuses if we get knocked out in the second round again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Finally, the other F word. A lot of us are satisfied with the coaching, but I think most of us are not naive enough to think we're not in the back half of Lavy's tenure as coach.

Let's try this way, since you're acting like this is a productive discussion (it's not), we'll leave you the task of suggesting replacement names aka "next" coach of the Flyers. Something a certain other coach-whiners-without-solutions refuse to do.
I'm satisfied with the coaching, just not happy with the stubbornness of Lavy not feeling he has to change the way this team plays defense. It reeks of Andy Reid and the Eagles stubbornness when it comes to thinking they are better than everyone else and know more than everyone else. The only thing missing is Ed Snider calling us "the gold standard."

I don't need to list coaches names because I offered a solution, just as Homer did after the season. He wants to look at the way we play defense. Instead of Lavy taking an honest look at what Homer said, he reply was to defend the defensive failure for the second year in a row.

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05-26-2012, 10:09 PM
  #265
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Oh, and it's pretty ridiculous to point out that Lavi has regressed from a Finals appearance to two second round appearances. Of COURSE he's regressed...unless you think it's reasonable to make the Finals every year. (It's not.)

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05-26-2012, 10:50 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
You left out the fact that Lavy has gone backwards since he got here and Torts has gone forward. Don't let that get in the way of the truth though.
Backwards? LOL
The Flyers were 1 goal away from going to game 7 of the Cup Final 2 years ago.
If you have been watching hockey long enough you know how hard it is to win back to back Cups, nevermind get there twice in a row. Its a rare feat in todays game.
Last year the Flyers were swept in round 2 to the Bruins who won the Cup.
This year the Flyers lost in 5 to NJ a team going to the Cup Final.
Both teams in last years Cup final were done after round 1.
Dont let the facts distort whatever you are trying to say.

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05-26-2012, 10:54 PM
  #267
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Backwards? LOL
Last year the Flyers were swept in round 2 to the Bruins who won the Cup.
This year the Flyers lost in 5 to NJ a team going to the Cup Final.
Dont let the facts distort whatever you are trying to say.
It seems like he's latched onto one thing and refuses to look at or consider any other factors. Not seeing the big picture.

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05-26-2012, 10:58 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
It seems like he's latched onto one thing and refuses to look at or consider any other factors. Not seeing the big picture.
its called tunnel vision. He is blind to anything else.

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05-27-2012, 07:13 AM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Incorrect. They actually were eliminated in the same number of games this year, not one more.
They won 4 games last year, and won 5 this year. 5 is bigger than 4 last time I checked.

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Didn't realize the bar was set so low. Win one round, great!
Go look at the results of the other teams who lost in the Finals then. Only two teams in 30 years made it back to the Finals after losing: Gretzky Oilers, Crosby Penguins. It's hard.

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Yeah ok, there wont be any excuses if we get knocked out in the second round again!
Barring crazy, unforeseen, widespread injury, no. The Flyers set themselves back at least a year with the trades last season, and then they lost a Hall of Fame defenseman during this one. There was a way to the Finals after being the Penguins, but back in July anyone who wasn't completely crazy would have gladly taken a return to the 2nd round. Next year is a different story, though.

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I'm satisfied with the coaching, just not happy with the stubbornness of Lavy not feeling he has to change the way this team plays defense. It reeks of Andy Reid and the Eagles stubbornness when it comes to thinking they are better than everyone else and know more than everyone else. The only thing missing is Ed Snider calling us "the gold standard."


I don't need to list coaches names because I offered a solution, just as Homer did after the season. He wants to look at the way we play defense. Instead of Lavy taking an honest look at what Homer said, he reply was to defend the defensive failure for the second year in a row.
That's not the nature of coaching in hockey, or in any sport. "Keep the coach, but completely change the system" doesn't happen. Bruce Boudreau tried was fired within a year.

Holmgren wants to look at the way we play defense because he knows he didn't give the coach the personnel needed for it. After trading the toxic twins, team defense was always going to be a problem. It starts with coming out in preseason and saying an 18 year-old kid is your best defensive forward. I don't know if you were one of the ones pushing Richards and Carter out the door, but those who did weren't careful with what they wished for. The fact of the matter is by trading those two, and never replacing them the Flyers punted on this season, whether people here or within the organization want to admit it or not.

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05-27-2012, 01:49 PM
  #270
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its called tunnel vision. He is blind to anything else.
He also believes that "correlation equals causation" which completely isn't true. Its really getting sad now. I feel like the more you get him to type the less sense his argument makes.

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05-28-2012, 12:14 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Lavi and Flyers:

1) Finals Appearance
2) Second Round
2) Second Round

Torts and Rangers:

1) First Round
2) Missed entirely
3) First Round
4) Conference Finals
Eh, probably not the best metric to use given the bloated contracts the Rangers were stuck with four years ago and the growing process of their young defensemen. Lavi pretty much stepped into a good situation.

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05-28-2012, 09:23 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
You can keep defending pond hockey until you're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is it was an aberration in Carolina 06. The Kings are younger than the Flyers, the Rangers barely older. All you bring to the table are excuses.
You can keep calling him winning the cup an aberration until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that very few coaches win a Cup and even fewer win more than one. He won a cup and was close to another with a different team.

There's also a team in the Cup finals right now that plays an aggressive forechecking style similar to Lavi's. I'm sure they're an aberration as well. I'm also sure it was an aberration that the Rangers and Blues we're both eliminated by underdogs who were not as good defensively as them during the regular season.

Furthermore, the Flyers average age is skewed by Pronger who didn't play, Kubina who didn't play much, and Lilja who was in and out of the lineup. Their forwards we're one of the youngest groups in the league. Way, way younger than the Rnagers or Kings. The only thing bringing up their average age is Timonen, and 3 other old Dmen who weren't really relevant.

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05-28-2012, 10:17 AM
  #273
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Eh, probably not the best metric to use given the bloated contracts the Rangers were stuck with four years ago and the growing process of their young defensemen. Lavi pretty much stepped into a good situation.
Nah, he only inherited a team that was in the ECF two seasons earlier.

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05-28-2012, 10:29 AM
  #274
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First you said this

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
On the contrary, they got 1 game further than they did last year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Incorrect. They actually were eliminated in the same number of games this year, not one more.
Buf series 7 games, Bruins series 4 games. 7+4=11

Pitt series 6 games, Devils series 5 games. 6+5=11

Last I checked, 11 games in 2011 and 11 games in 2012 means they didn't get one game further.

Now you changed it to this

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They won 4 games last year, and won 5 this year. 5 is bigger than 4 last time I checked.
So which is it?

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05-28-2012, 10:47 AM
  #275
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You think last season was better because we had a harder time beating Buffalo than we did Pittsburgh? You're counting losses as a good thing, because they meant more playoff games played? Being eliminated in the same number of games means nothing. Winning more games, however, is pretty cool.

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