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Which system do you prefer?

View Poll Results: Which system do you prefer?
Lavy's (Capitals pond hockey) 46 54.76%
Defense First (something that resembles forwards playing some sort of defensive system) 38 45.24%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-24-2012, 06:33 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Also: The Flyers have lost Betts, Pronger, Lappy, Powe, Gagne, Richards, and Carter in the last two seasons, as well as Leino who was pretty passable on defense; Timonen has been banged up a lot too. Read, Simmonds, Couturier and Talbot have replaced them, with Mez and Grossman on defense; that's a downgrade in a lot of instances. I don't care what system you're playing, when you lose that amount and that level of defensive ability your team is going to be worse off on defense.
Great point and even more reason to institute a defense first system since you've opted to dump those type of players in favor of different ones.

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05-24-2012, 06:40 PM
  #202
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Great point and even more reason to institute a defense first system since you've opted to dump those type of players in favor of different ones.
Yes, let's use our roster which is ideally suited for generating offense in a system which squanders their best talents. The Caps just tried that for a season, it was pretty ugly; if they had been in any other division they would've missed the playoffs. This team isn't built to use the Rangers system; it's built for Lavi's...and the only way all these new players are going to get better at playing it is if they keep on playing it and grow into it.

Lavi's system took a roster with an incredible amount of turnover and rookies into the playoffs at a position higher than almost every expert predicted and then took them past a team that was supposed to wipe the floor with them. They exceeded expectations. Clearly it's not as horrible as you make it sound; I mean, it's not like the Flyers made it to the Finals under Lavi two years ago or anything...and then dominated the league for half a season before injuries and a short offseason caught them. It was a transition year. I guess you want to have another transition year?

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05-24-2012, 07:02 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Yes, let's use our roster which is ideally suited for generating offense in a system which squanders their best talents. The Caps just tried that for a season, it was pretty ugly; if they had been in any other division they would've missed the playoffs. This team isn't built to use the Rangers system; it's built for Lavi's...and the only way all these new players are going to get better at playing it is if they keep on playing it and grow into it.

Lavi's system took a roster with an incredible amount of turnover and rookies into the playoffs at a position higher than almost every expert predicted and then took them past a team that was supposed to wipe the floor with them. They exceeded expectations. Clearly it's not as horrible as you make it sound; I mean, it's not like the Flyers made it to the Finals under Lavi two years ago or anything...and then dominated the league for half a season before injuries and a short offseason caught them. It was a transition year. I guess you want to have another transition year?
Which is why I say we have high hopes for next season. Hopefully everyone is healthy, we have a lot of pieces in the places that we want them right now, just need to add 2 or 3 pieces and the team will be ready to kick some serious ass. I think with the improvement of not only the confidence, but his changed work ethic and knowledge of the system should definitely help Bryz next season. Get Suter or someone comparable, re-sign Voracek and get a 4th line hitting/PK-ing center (Slater) and I think we'd be good.

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05-24-2012, 07:48 PM
  #204
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Also, the system itself wasn't at fault for defensive shortcomings this year; much of it stemmed from poor individual decisions being made by the players. There were guys doing lots of stupid things with the puck, people choosing to cover the wrong man, players chasing the puck and leaving areas open, etc. No defensive system will stop Carle from turning the puck over in the slot or Briere from doing who-knows-what on coverage.

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05-24-2012, 08:09 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Also, the system itself wasn't at fault for defensive shortcomings this year; much of it stemmed from poor individual decisions being made by the players. There were guys doing lots of stupid things with the puck, people choosing to cover the wrong man, players chasing the puck and leaving areas open, etc. No defensive system will stop Carle from turning the puck over in the slot or Briere from doing who-knows-what on coverage.
The human factor can either be a detriment (brain farts) or a blessing (bravery) to a team, or to just the game or the play.

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05-24-2012, 08:25 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Also, the system itself wasn't at fault for defensive shortcomings this year; much of it stemmed from poor individual decisions being made by the players. There were guys doing lots of stupid things with the puck, people choosing to cover the wrong man, players chasing the puck and leaving areas open, etc. No defensive system will stop Carle from turning the puck over in the slot or Briere from doing who-knows-what on coverage.
Yeah just like all the "experts" who said Kovalchuk wouldn't fit in NJ because of their "system."

Another thing the so called "experts" said was Lavi's system had no answers for what the Devils were doing, as well as other strong defensive teams who mopped the floor with us this year. Pittsburgh is a poor example because they haven't made a commitment to defense first hockey since they won their cup playing the left wing lock that playoff year.

Look no further than the fact that no other team has won a cup using anything that even resembles Lavi's system in the slightest way. Don't let the facts get in the way of the truth.

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05-24-2012, 08:35 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Yes, let's use our roster which is ideally suited for generating offense in a system which squanders their best talents. The Caps just tried that for a season, it was pretty ugly; if they had been in any other division they would've missed the playoffs.
They beat the Bruins who we struggle mightily against, and pushed the Rangers (who we couldn't beat this year) to the brink of elimination. Yeah real ugly. The way the Devils crushed us was real ugly.


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This team isn't built to use the Rangers system; it's built for Lavi's...and the only way all these new players are going to get better at playing it is if they keep on playing it and grow into it.
I thought we were just in the finals 2 years ago, now we have to "grow into it?" If Lavi's system is so great, why was he canned so soon after winning a cup with it?

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Lavi's system took a roster with an incredible amount of turnover and rookies into the playoffs at a position higher than almost every expert predicted and then took them past a team that was supposed to wipe the floor with them. They exceeded expectations.
Those same "experts" who predicted Vancouver to win the cup?

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Clearly it's not as horrible as you make it sound; I mean, it's not like the Flyers made it to the Finals under Lavi two years ago or anything...and then dominated the league for half a season before injuries and a short offseason caught them. It was a transition year. I guess you want to have another transition year?
I want a year in which we decide to play a little more defensive hockey so we can have consistent deep runs and not wilt like dandelions on a hot summer day when faced with tough defensive teams.

0-13 when scoring 3 or less the last two playoff seasons says a lot. You can't win cups with a record like that in the playoffs. No one ever has. Logic, opinions, drivel, and typing in CAPS will never change that.

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05-24-2012, 08:39 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Yeah just like all the "experts" who said Kovalchuk wouldn't fit in NJ because of their "system."

Another thing the so called "experts" said was Lavi's system had no answers for what the Devils were doing, as well as other strong defensive teams who mopped the floor with us this year. Pittsburgh is a poor example because they haven't made a commitment to defense first hockey since they won their cup playing the left wing lock that playoff year.

Look no further than the fact that no other team has won a cup using anything that even resembles Lavi's system in the slightest way. Don't let the facts get in the way of the truth.
Where do you think Laviolette's system came from? Laviolette didn't invent any of the systems play he uses. Just like all Coaches they use systems that have been used in the game for years. There is nothing unique that Laviolette uses.

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05-24-2012, 09:12 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Also, the system itself wasn't at fault for defensive shortcomings this year; much of it stemmed from poor individual decisions being made by the players. There were guys doing lots of stupid things with the puck, people choosing to cover the wrong man, players chasing the puck and leaving areas open, etc. No defensive system will stop Carle from turning the puck over in the slot or Briere from doing who-knows-what on coverage.
Usually taking a bad penalty (hooking, holding, and high sticking seem to be favorites of his).

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05-24-2012, 09:18 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Yeah just like all the "experts" who said Kovalchuk wouldn't fit in NJ because of their "system."

Another thing the so called "experts" said was Lavi's system had no answers for what the Devils were doing, as well as other strong defensive teams who mopped the floor with us this year. Pittsburgh is a poor example because they haven't made a commitment to defense first hockey since they won their cup playing the left wing lock that playoff year.

Look no further than the fact that no other team has won a cup using anything that even resembles Lavi's system in the slightest way. Don't let the facts get in the way of the truth.
Kovalchuk wasn't as bad defensively as most people thought.

It wasn't Lavi's system that was the problem. For example every time Lilja was on the ice the Devils dumped the puck into his corner because he's slow and has a bad outlet pass. So they were able to get into the puck faster than him and set up in the zone/forcheck like crazy. Or if he actually managed to get to the puck first they could generally pick off his pass or at least pressure him into not getting it to his target and forcheck. What system fixes that problem?

As has been pointed out his system has won the Cup, in fact he has. So please stop trying to use that argument it makes you sound dumb.

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05-24-2012, 09:46 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
They beat the Bruins who we struggle mightily against, and pushed the Rangers (who we couldn't beat this year) to the brink of elimination. Yeah real ugly. The way the Devils crushed us was real ugly.
I wouldn't exactly say we struggled mightily against the Bruins we had a 1-1-2 record against them. Not great but still 4 out of a possible 8 points. Yeah we sucked against the Rangers all season, and their defensive system is working wonders against the Devils . . . oh wait . . . it's not so I guess it's not just us is it? Oh and how did we fair against that *amazing* Caps defensive system? 3-1.

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I thought we were just in the finals 2 years ago, now we have to "grow into it?" If Lavi's system is so great, why was he canned so soon after winning a cup with it?
Yes. We had 8 rookies on the team this year, and only 7 players on the team were on the team that went to the finals. So there are a lot that were/are still learning the system or even just how to play in the NHL.

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Those same "experts" who predicted Vancouver to win the cup? I want a year in which we decide to play a little more defensive hockey so we can have consistent deep runs and not wilt like dandelions on a hot summer day when faced with tough defensive teams.
What for you qualifies as a 'deep run'? The conference finals? I looked all the playoffs since the lockout. I found 7 teams that have made the Conference finals more than once since then. We're one of those teams.

Buffalo Sabres (2)
Carolina Hurricanes (2)
Chicago Blackhawks (2)
Detroit Red Wings (3)
Philadelphia Flyers (2)
Pittsburgh Penguins (2)
San Jose Sharks (2)

I don't know that I would describe ANY of those teams as having a strict defensive system in mold that you seem to think the Flyers should adopt having had at the time they went to the Conference finals. In fact I would say more than half we offensive teams along the lines you are trying to say can't be successful in the playoffs. I also see nothing that says to me that a change to such a defensive system will give us 'more consistent deep runs'.

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0-13 when scoring 3 or less the last two playoff seasons says a lot. You can't win cups with a record like that in the playoffs. No one ever has. Logic, opinions, drivel, and typing in CAPS will never change that.
As I told you before, the reason we are 0-13 scoring 3 or less goals in the last two playoffs is because in the last two playoffs our goal tending performances have NEEDED that many goals to be able to get a win. You are ignoring the facts and basically said oh well we lost two games 1-0 so it wasn't the goal tending. In the last two playoffs the goalies combine for a 3.54 GAA (3.8 GAA not counting the two 1-0 games) which is not good enough. Even worse their combine goals against average over the last two playoffs was a combine .886% which would qualify as average, if you're talking about a goalie in the 1980s (even then this was only average not even good). Today the average save percentage is around .913%. So the goal tending was literally below average not even a little below. With stats like that indeed they would need to score 4 goals to compensate for the inadequacies of the goal tending. The goal tending has been well below average in the playoffs the last two years that is a fact.


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05-24-2012, 11:51 PM
  #212
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As has been pointed out his system has won the Cup, in fact he has.
And almost won it again four years later.

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05-25-2012, 12:39 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
They beat the Bruins who we struggle mightily against, and pushed the Rangers (who we couldn't beat this year) to the brink of elimination. Yeah real ugly. The way the Devils crushed us was real ugly.



I thought we were just in the finals 2 years ago, now we have to "grow into it?" If Lavi's system is so great, why was he canned so soon after winning a cup with it?



Those same "experts" who predicted Vancouver to win the cup?



I want a year in which we decide to play a little more defensive hockey so we can have consistent deep runs and not wilt like dandelions on a hot summer day when faced with tough defensive teams.

.
I thought the Caps played pond hockey.
speaking of coaches who preach defensive hockey why cant Hitchcock keep a job for very long? coaches get fired. Its part of the business. Why was Stevens fired? he didnt get the job done.
The Canucks ran into Tim Thomas. He had one of the greatest post seasons maybe the greatest post season for a goaltender in postseason history. a system didnt win that Cup for the Bruins. Thomas did.
So what happens if we have a defensive system and we cant score goals to win games? say we go or 5 years and we get ko'd in round 1. Do we blame the system?

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05-25-2012, 04:20 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I thought the Caps played pond hockey.
speaking of coaches who preach defensive hockey why cant Hitchcock keep a job for very long? coaches get fired. Its part of the business. Why was Stevens fired? he didnt get the job done.
The Canucks ran into Tim Thomas. He had one of the greatest post seasons maybe the greatest post season for a goaltender in postseason history. a system didnt win that Cup for the Bruins. Thomas did.
So what happens if we have a defensive system and we cant score goals to win games? say we go or 5 years and we get ko'd in round 1. Do we blame the system?
What happens is what happened to the Blues. You're absolutely right. Blues were the best defensive team in the NHL. Knocked out in the 2nd round.

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05-25-2012, 07:05 AM
  #215
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Yes. We had 8 rookies on the team this year, and only 7 players on the team were on the team that went to the finals. So there are a lot that were/are still learning the system or even just how to play in the NHL.
And their best learning experience was watching the Devils dismantle them, it certainly looked in that series like they have learned ZERO from Lavi. Fact is that of all coaches to teach rookies how to win, Lavi is just about dead last with his stupid fire wagon routine.

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05-25-2012, 07:08 AM
  #216
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Kovalchuk wasn't as bad defensively as most people thought.
Oh yes he was.

Was.

And that's the point. He was dreadful but has learned to be responsible.

Briere was dreadful and he has learned precisely what? To be more dreadful?

I just hope Lavi hasn't tainted some of the young guys. Some of them looked like good two way prospects for stretches.

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05-25-2012, 07:21 AM
  #217
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Great point and even more reason to institute a defense first system since you've opted to dump those type of players in favor of different ones.
No, you don't implement a defense first system like Hitch or Lemaire when you've got a group of young guys like the Flyers have. You've got to let them find their way and let them make mistakes. A defensive system stifles young guys and it kills their confidence because with those strict defensive systems, there isn't any room for error.

Laviolette did the right thing. He let the young guys play. He let them get their feet wet and exposed at the pro level and they learned what they can and can't do in order to be successful. I expect that this upcoming season, things will tighten up defensively a bit more.

Personally, I'm not worried about things. If anything, as others have pointed out, this team was supposed to be kicked around as they dealt two franchise center pieces. Instead, the young guys stepped up and helped carry this club. How anyone isn't encouraged by that is beyond me. You're talking about a club that used up to 8 rookies a night and were one of the better teams. No other club in the NHL that I can think of has ever used that many rookies on any given night throughout the season. The fact that Laviolette did so and did so regularly should be a testament as to how much of a good coach he really is.

As for losing in the second round, this was a team that was physically done. People don't seem to realize that. There's already five players confirmed to be getting surgery done and that there's possibly six more guys who require surgery. By the time they got to Jersey, they just couldn't take the pounding physically. Even if they played a "defensive" system, they still wouldn't have won. That's the reality of it. People need to get over it.

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05-25-2012, 07:22 AM
  #218
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And their best learning experience was watching the Devils dismantle them, it certainly looked in that series like they have learned ZERO from Lavi. Fact is that of all coaches to teach rookies how to win, Lavi is just about dead last with his stupid fire wagon routine.
But I'm sure John Stevens could have done a better job.......

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05-25-2012, 08:17 AM
  #219
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But I'm sure John Stevens could have done a better job.......
Well, if you look up thread you will find people opining that the reason Lavi's team this year sucked so badly defensively was because "we" traded away "our" best defensive players hmmm I wonder where those good defensive players learned to play sound NHL hockey wow that's a tough decision you give me here I think we'll need to think about it for a while

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05-25-2012, 09:42 AM
  #220
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This thread is high comedy.

1) The Flyers absolutely play a defensive system, it's called the left-wing lock (you've heard of it, the Red Wings like it). The primary difference between the Flyers and Red Wings is that Lavi prefers to be more aggressive with his forecheck, and have his D more active. This is not a "lack" of defensive system, it's a matter of philosophy. When it is working well, it places a ton of pressure on the opposition and they get overwhelmed from the red line into their defensive zone and turn the puck over a ton... when it isn't working, you're getting shredded through the neutral zone.

The key to the system--for better or worse--is that it applies a ton of pressure on the D. They are going to be out in space frequently, and they are very active so they need to be making smart pinches and the forwards NEED to be on top of covering for them.

All that being said, "system" had nothing to do with where this team struggled defensively. When your best defensive zone center is an 18/19 y.o. rookie you're going to have problems in your own zone. Giroux, for all his compete, is an undersized center that plays with a tiny stick... he's going to struggle defensively, and this was noted last summer once you took Carter away from his line (who covered for Giroux last year in their own end). Some of this will alleviate with young players growing into solid NHL players (defense comes last), but unless this team is going to dump all defensive responsibility on Couturier, they may want to consider looking for a legit defense-first center to help out there.

So, the real question of the poll should be: Do you want A) a passive defensive system; or B) an aggressive system. Because you have a defensive system already, and it's a perfectly good one ... and it's nothing like what the Caps used to play like (Caps were a bit different the last couple of years).

2) For those saying Kovalchuk is better defensively now. No, he isn't. He's still atrocious. He's a turnover machine, and he gets scored on with frequency compared to the rest of the Devils. The difference is that he's gone from a disaster in Atlanta to a solid team in NJ, and an organization that stresses team play (he didn't really do that in Atlanta). This makes him look a bit better, but he's still a terrible defensive player.

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05-25-2012, 11:52 AM
  #221
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However one wants to label/name/describe the system the Flyers currently employ....I just know this..they are going to live and die by it and Lavi's remarks in this article seems to suggest as much..

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The problem for this team was in its goals allowed, an offshoot of Bryzgalov’s erratic play, the loss of Chris Pronger at the blueline and Peter Laviolette’s high-risk, high-reward system. If you want to take a shot at Homer, there’s your opening. He thought he had enough good blueliners and he didn’t, at least for the style of play his coach prefers, if not demands. It was an interesting disconnect in that final press conference after the season ended, when Holmgren’s suggestion that their style of play might become more defensively responsible over the summer was followed by Laviolette’s edgy defense of it.

A refresher: I asked Holmgren if the goals allowed was more linked to the goalie’s erratic play or to the system.

"That’s a good question," Holmgren said. "That is probably a question for the coaching staff. There is no question in my mind that we have to do a better job with goals against. It is related to Ilya a little bit. It is related a little bit to how we play. We are an offensive team that can score. We just finished a five-game series where we didn’t score a lot of goals. We certainly didn’t generate a lot of offensive chances. We have to look at what happened there and what you are going to do about it when you get into that situation next year."

When asked about his system a little later though, Laviolette said, "I don’t know. Do you think that attack systems have ever won Stanley Cups before? Do you think that attack systems have ever gotten to the finals before? We needed to do a better job certainly in a lot of areas. I think, defensively, we could have been better. Offensively, in the playoffs, we generated the least amount of shots and opportunities, in the playoffs. Certainly I think there are things that we need to do better. All teams need to play good defense to win championships. Pittsburgh and Detroit did it a few years back …"



Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...#ixzz1vtvRPQNW

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05-25-2012, 12:01 PM
  #222
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Oh yes he was.

Was.

And that's the point. He was dreadful but has learned to be responsible.

Briere was dreadful and he has learned precisely what? To be more dreadful?

I just hope Lavi hasn't tainted some of the young guys. Some of them looked like good two way prospects for stretches.
Kovalchuk has improved since he left Atlanta, but I watched Kovalchuk A LOT as he as been my favorite non-Flyer since he came into the league. For the last 3-4 years in Atlanta he was ok defensively. By no means was he going to win a Selke and certainly not the train wreak that the masses would have you think. I'm certain I watched him play more than you did while he was in Atlanta, so please spare me the act that you have some grand knowledge about him rather than just conforming to the popular opinion. Similarly Briere is still no Selke winner, but he's definitely not as bad defensively as he was when he got here. If you're not willing to admit it, it's probably just because it would go against the point you're trying to prove.

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Well, if you look up thread you will find people opining that the reason Lavi's team this year sucked so badly defensively was because "we" traded away "our" best defensive players hmmm I wonder where those good defensive players learned to play sound NHL hockey wow that's a tough decision you give me here I think we'll need to think about it for a while
Ken Hitchcock probably.

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And their best learning experience was watching the Devils dismantle them, it certainly looked in that series like they have learned ZERO from Lavi. Fact is that of all coaches to teach rookies how to win, Lavi is just about dead last with his stupid fire wagon routine.
What is your explanation for a guy like Couturier then?


Last edited by whatthef: 05-25-2012 at 12:37 PM. Reason: merging to save space
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05-25-2012, 12:06 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Also, the system itself wasn't at fault for defensive shortcomings this year; much of it stemmed from poor individual decisions being made by the players. There were guys doing lots of stupid things with the puck, people choosing to cover the wrong man, players chasing the puck and leaving areas open, etc. No defensive system will stop Carle from turning the puck over in the slot or Briere from doing who-knows-what on coverage.
I learned earlier in this thread that the coach is actually in control of his player's thought processes. Therefore Lavi is to blame for Carle's, and everyone on the team's turnovers.

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05-25-2012, 12:08 PM
  #224
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What happens is what happened to the Blues. You're absolutely right. Blues were the best defensive team in the NHL. Knocked out in the 2nd round.
This has been a big problem for the Rangers in the playoffs as well. Fortunately, for them they played against an 8th seed that was pretty lucky to make the playoffs and a 7th seed also lucky to make the playoffs and they're offense dried up worse than the Rangers when it mattered.

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05-25-2012, 12:08 PM
  #225
Beef Invictus
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I learned earlier in this thread that the coach is actually in control of his player's thought processes. Therefore Lavi is to blame for Carle's, and everyone on the team's turnovers.
Yes, it's like NHL12. Lavi actually has a controller on the bench.

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