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World Cup of Hockey Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Where does Swiss rank in international tournaments?

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Old
05-11-2012, 01:09 AM
  #176
QnebO
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Originally Posted by Zamuz View Post
Can you explain how USA is elite and Finland & Czech are not? no need to look back in the 80s because now it's different.
And the worst argument of all is that in WC USA don't have best players, because neither does Czech or Finland.
USA is not "elite" any, not even a bit more than Finland or Czech.. Its less elite probably. I may agree of Canada being elite, not many others, maybe Sweden too with their recent golds. Russia has great material, but when do they win with it?

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05-11-2012, 01:12 AM
  #177
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On Paper at an Olympic All-Star event:
1. Canada
2. USA
3. Russia
4. Sweden
5. Finland
6. Czech Republic
7. Slovakia
8. Switzerland
9. Germany
10. Denmark

IMO

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05-11-2012, 02:12 AM
  #178
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On 'paper' I would place the Czech Rep above Finland. I think the CR has become underrated. Not sure what they will look like in a decade but for now at least they have a solid pool of NHL and Europena based players to chose from.

IMHO people overrate the amount of elite NHL talent (really the amount of NHL players in general) required to field a competitive or even medal contending team. The Czech team that won gold in 98 had over half its players based out of Europe. Finland never looks all that impressive on paper but always seems to leave the Olympics with a medal. Tons of people like to pin Russia's failure in Vancouver on the amount of KHL players they had but seem to forget that Slovakia had pretty much the same make up of NHL/KHL players and they bounced Sweden and almost took Canada to OT in the SF. Even Switzerland, while not a legit medal contender was very competitive in both '06 & '10 and up until this year or last had next to no presence in the NHL.

Don't get me wrong if going into a tournament I have a choice between a team loaded with top end NHL talent and a team not loaded with top end NHL talent I am taking my chances with the former but it isn't exactly a guarantee of success.


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05-11-2012, 02:55 AM
  #179
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A lot of biases from both sides of the Atlantic. The past four Olympics show that USA and Canada benefit greatly from playing on North American ice and soil, hence I would definitely not place USA as a clear #2... they have a lot of NHL players but the better top end talent is definitely with the Swedes, Czechs and the Russians. I'd probably agree with something to the lines of (if we average the teams to play between international and NA ice):

Canada/Sweden
Czech/Russia
USA/Finland
Slovakia/Switzerland

In reality, any of those top 6 can beat each other on any given day. Slovakia and Switzerland are dark horses that can give any of the above a hard time but I wouldn't count on them beating the top 6 regularly in a best on best. Slovakia still has the edge on Switzerland due to the likes of Hossa and Chara, but I think it will be quite soon that "big 6" and "top 8" will be words that will be used to describe international hockey powers.

Beyond that it's kind of a toss up amongst the 5 third-tier nations (Germany, Belarus, Latvia, Norway, Denmark). Germany did terrible at the last OG but proved they have potential at the 2010 WCs. Their NHL stars are fading away quickly (Hecht, Sturm) so I don't know what the future holds for them. Same with Belarus, who is coming up beyond the Kostitsyns and Grabovski? Prospects for Latvia and Norway do not seem to be plentiful either. I'd be most excited to see where Denmark is headed, I can definitely see them at Sochi with how their players are developing. Likewise I'd be interested to see how far Austria and Slovenia, who aren't even in the WCs this year will come along over the next few years. IIRC Austria has three pretty good NHL players (Vanek, Grabner, Nodl) while Slovenia has Kopitar and Mursak.

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05-11-2012, 03:25 AM
  #180
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I actually think Finland is the best national team there is around. The reason aren't the players but Jalonen and "our game".

Jalonen is arguably the best coach in the game. He eats the North Americans coaches alive who actually don't have any idea how to play modern hockey. It would be awesome to see NHL after he quits in Finland. He's the man who's ideas could revolutionize the NHL hockey.

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05-11-2012, 03:30 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipel View Post
I actually think Finland is the best national team there is around. The reason aren't the players but Jalonen and "our game".

Jalonen is arguably the best coach in the game. He eats the North Americans coaches alive who actually don't have any idea how to play modern hockey. It would be awesome to see NHL after he quits in Finland. He's the man who's ideas could revolutionize the NHL hockey.
I don't know much about Jalonen, but this seems like a homerism.

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05-11-2012, 03:34 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
I don't know much about Jalonen, but this seems like a homerism.
Hahah homerism Thats probably greatest word ever created. Where can I join the homerist party?


I respect Jalonen also, but that might be a bit homerism def. But he could coach in the NHL based on coaching skill, thats for sure not homerism.


Last edited by QnebO: 05-11-2012 at 03:48 AM.
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05-11-2012, 06:34 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by garbageteam View Post
A lot of biases from both sides of the Atlantic. The past four Olympics show that USA and Canada benefit greatly from playing on North American ice and soil, hence I would definitely not place USA as a clear #2... they have a lot of NHL players but the better top end talent is definitely with the Swedes, Czechs and the Russians. I'd probably agree with something to the lines of (if we average the teams to play between international and NA ice):
To be honest I don't think there have been enough best on best tournaments outside of NA to make such claims at this point. Two OG's ('98 & '06) is an extremely small sample size. I'll grant you that playing on the big ice helps the European teams more than the vice versa since so many top Europeans play in NA already, but CAN / USA won on the big ice in '02 so we have done well on it too. Also both CAN and the USA have won their share at other levels in tournaments outside of NA that are held more often. Lastly if you look at the history of WC results you will see that the host nations usually do slightly worse than they did the years before and after, so the host ice advantage in IIHF tournaments is a bit of a myth.

If you look at the depth of individual players the US is a pretty solid number 2, which is not surprising given how many people play hockey there now, however it certainly doesn't guarantee success at every OG.

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05-11-2012, 06:36 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by ipel View Post
I actually think Finland is the best national team there is around. The reason aren't the players but Jalonen and "our game".

Jalonen is arguably the best coach in the game. He eats the North Americans coaches alive who actually don't have any idea how to play modern hockey. It would be awesome to see NHL after he quits in Finland. He's the man who's ideas could revolutionize the NHL hockey.
I guess we'll see. The NHL is all about winning so if he is as good as you think he is he should have a chance to prove it pretty soon. Might be a touch early for you to say this though.

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05-11-2012, 06:46 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by ipel View Post

He eats the North Americans coaches alive who actually don't have any idea how to play modern hockey.


Yeah - he'd DESTROY this guy...

http://www.iihf.com/competition/272/...ash=4523ff7581

Reign in your over-exuberant fans, Finns?

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05-11-2012, 06:58 AM
  #186
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A lot of dreams seem to be considered reality in this thread.

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05-11-2012, 07:01 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Davebo View Post
Yeah - he'd DESTROY this guy...
Well, let's say most of them.

Babcock might be one of the few who might make him break a sweat. Is he coaching tonight, by the way?

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05-11-2012, 07:43 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
To be honest I don't think there have been enough best on best tournaments outside of NA to make such claims at this point. Two OG's ('98 & '06) is an extremely small sample size. ...
To be honest, many (most?) euros hate this kind of arguing. NA teams constantly ignore international competitions (there is even a flack about Sochi) and then come with neverending excuses of every kind.
Start to play same as every other country or deal with your international reputation.

(Please don't take this too personally.)

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05-11-2012, 08:00 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davebo View Post


Yeah - he'd DESTROY this guy...

http://www.iihf.com/competition/272/...ash=4523ff7581

Reign in your over-exuberant fans, Finns?
Maybe i sounded too dramatic in my last post.

There are of course great coaches in NHL too, like Babcock, but Jalonen seems to be few steps ahead of "every" coach at least in big ring.

There are of course a lot unknown factors with the words Jalonen and NHL. Jalonen have had problems getting NHL players playing like he wants. There is HUGE difference in the way Jalonen wants to his team to play and how teams in NHL play. Detroit is propably the closest in that way compared to Jalonens Finland. We also don't know how Jalonen would be able to adapt "our game" to small ring.

Most of the "analysts" don't even understand why finland actually is good. The main reason is that the attacking package is so tight that it is almost imposible for the optonent to get changes by aggressive forecheck. And that's where the most goals in NHL come from ( PP too).

So far in the 4 games optonent have only got 1 change and 0 goals from forechecking ( these are checked by scouting program).

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05-11-2012, 08:22 AM
  #190
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set yourTeam as your favorit NationalTeam

if yourTeam is Canada then
yourRank is 1.
else
if yourTeam is bigSix then
if yourTeam won gold at the olympics since '98 then
if yourTeam won OG on small rink then
if yourTeam had to beat Canada in the final to achieve that then
well done! unfortunatly mighty Canada is and will ever be 1.
yourRank is 2.
else
well done! but be honest, your scedule was way to easy
yourRank is 2.
endif
else
c'mon, big rink?
yourRank is 3.
endif
else
if yourTeam won gold at the wc on a small rink then
well done, russia! but stop strugle at the olympics!
yourRank is 4.
else
at least you won somthing in the past
yourRank is in between 5.
endif
endif
your just lucky boy, that beeing bigSix is a birthgiven right
yourRank is 6.
else
if yourTeam won gold at the wc then
sorry but the fact you won shows wc has not been taken serious by the bigSix
and hey, slovakia you know why they call it bigSix?
cause there are six nations part of it! think about that before you call for indipendency next time!
yourRank is 7.
else
sorry guy, all what count's is mentioned
yourRank is unimportant but as long as you have some nhl-players and
beat one of the topSix from time to time (exept Canada because they dont take it serious)
we like your country too
endif
endif

i'am swiss and I go with the offical ranking so switzerland is 7. so far. it reflects how you do at the tournaments and that is what counts in a rankings. there are always some reasons to question it but hey prove it in the competition or leave it!
switzerland does not have so many guys in the nhl but our futur is bright our league is wealthy we won the ecl
we have nino and bärtschi


Last edited by eowyn17: 05-11-2012 at 08:39 AM.
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Old
05-11-2012, 08:52 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
To be honest, many (most?) euros hate this kind of arguing. NA teams constantly ignore international competitions (there is even a flack about Sochi) and then come with neverending excuses of every kind.
Start to play same as every other country or deal with your international reputation.

(Please don't take this too personally.)
It seems that the consensus here is that Canada is the top ranked hockey nation, which I agree with. With the most people playing the game and the most infrastructure in terms of arenas, etc it is hardly surprising. I don't know why anyone would be upset with the nation most committed to the sport having the best team, but still Canadians are attacked here all the time, just human nature I guess.

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05-11-2012, 09:01 AM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garbageteam View Post
A lot of biases from both sides of the Atlantic. The past four Olympics show that USA and Canada benefit greatly from playing on North American ice and soil, hence I would definitely not place USA as a clear #2... they have a lot of NHL players but the better top end talent is definitely with the Swedes, Czechs and the Russians. I'd probably agree with something to the lines of (if we average the teams to play between international and NA ice):

Canada/Sweden
Czech/Russia
USA/Finland
Slovakia/Switzerland

In reality, any of those top 6 can beat each other on any given day. Slovakia and Switzerland are dark horses that can give any of the above a hard time but I wouldn't count on them beating the top 6 regularly in a best on best. Slovakia still has the edge on Switzerland due to the likes of Hossa and Chara, but I think it will be quite soon that "big 6" and "top 8" will be words that will be used to describe international hockey powers.

Beyond that it's kind of a toss up amongst the 5 third-tier nations (Germany, Belarus, Latvia, Norway, Denmark). Germany did terrible at the last OG but proved they have potential at the 2010 WCs. Their NHL stars are fading away quickly (Hecht, Sturm) so I don't know what the future holds for them. Same with Belarus, who is coming up beyond the Kostitsyns and Grabovski? Prospects for Latvia and Norway do not seem to be plentiful either. I'd be most excited to see where Denmark is headed, I can definitely see them at Sochi with how their players are developing. Likewise I'd be interested to see how far Austria and Slovenia, who aren't even in the WCs this year will come along over the next few years. IIRC Austria has three pretty good NHL players (Vanek, Grabner, Nodl) while Slovenia has Kopitar and Mursak.
The Czechs? How so?

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05-11-2012, 09:19 AM
  #193
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Too bad WC is what it is...Never 100% quality.
It's a gamble, if you're lucky you get the good team, if you're unlucky you get the bad.
And NHL got all the cards ;P

Only Olympics can fix the 100% quality teams

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05-11-2012, 09:28 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
It seems that the consensus here is that Canada is the top ranked hockey nation, which I agree with. With the most people playing the game and the most infrastructure in terms of arenas, etc it is hardly surprising. I don't know why anyone would be upset with the nation most committed to the sport having the best team, but still Canadians are attacked here all the time, just human nature I guess.
Yes, because Canadians are attacked just because they are Canadians and never because of their behaviour

The only ones who are getting "attacked" are those who attacked others first and those who whine and complain about stuff all the time, like the world rankings for example, even when they have been told about a dozen times why things are the way they are. Funny how the overwhelming majority of Canadians aren't getting attacked, I wonder what may be the reason for that

If those few - not only Canadians of course - wouldn't act so condescending and arrogant at times, no one would attack them. Seeing how 99.9% of the winner's population have as much to do with "their" team winning as the rest of the worlds population, there really isn't much need for someone to act as if he is superior or knows more than others.


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05-11-2012, 09:36 AM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
It seems that the consensus here is that Canada is the top ranked hockey nation, which I agree with. With the most people playing the game and the most infrastructure in terms of arenas, etc it is hardly surprising. I don't know why anyone would be upset with the nation most committed to the sport having the best team, but still Canadians are attacked here all the time, just human nature I guess.
The Canada being top ranked hockey nation doesnt reflect their particular ranking during certain time stretch. Believe it or not, but Canada might not (or need not ) have to be the best national hockey team during certain time stretch. It doesnt take anything away from you. But depth and ice rinks are not everything.

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05-11-2012, 10:19 AM
  #196
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so...what about to review position of USA?

still top 6 after Kazachstan game?

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05-11-2012, 10:32 AM
  #197
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so...what about to review position of USA?

still top 6 after Kazachstan game?
One upset doesn't mean you are out or in "Elite"...

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05-11-2012, 10:41 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by croAVSfan View Post
One upset doesn't mean you are out or in "Elite"...
still i dont think they get WCH seriously...they just come to show, drink some beer (not that yellow limo they have in USA ) and go back...

and that attitude is holding them back...as someone said, team stacked with NHLers must win even if they dont want...on WCH was USA never an elite...OG is something else

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05-11-2012, 10:50 AM
  #199
Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
The Canada being top ranked hockey nation doesnt reflect their particular ranking during certain time stretch. Believe it or not, but Canada might not (or need not ) have to be the best national hockey team during certain time stretch. It doesnt take anything away from you. But depth and ice rinks are not everything.
I think it is safe to say that at every tournament where Canada has iced their top team they were pretournament favourites, but that certainly doesn't mean they will win every time. I agree that in any official ranking system you have to base rankings on results and not how a team looks on paper, I have no issue with that.


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05-11-2012, 11:04 AM
  #200
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Yes, because Canadians are attacked just because they are Canadians and never because of their behaviour

The only ones who are getting "attacked" are those who attacked others first and those who whine and complain about stuff all the time, like the world rankings for example, even when they have been told about a dozen times why things are the way they are. Funny how the overwhelming majority of Canadians aren't getting attacked, I wonder what may be the reason for that

If those few - not only Canadians of course - wouldn't act so condescending and arrogant at times, no one would attack them. Seeing how 99.9% of the winner's population have as much to do with "their" team winning as the rest of the worlds population, there really isn't much need for someone to act as if he is superior or knows more than others.
Sometimes Canadians are attacked because of their behaviour, and rightly so, but the vast majority of the attacks are unprovoked. For example thanks but I really don't think we need you to explain why the rankings are the way they are. I understand why they are the way they are and I don't think it is right that the first thing you label us with is being arrogant and condescending for suggesting there might be better ways to do things. If anyone is being condescending here it is you.

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