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Old
06-26-2012, 10:42 PM
  #901
gusfring
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Originally Posted by We Want The 25 View Post
People are giving up on bourque why too fast. Personally i see him rebounding and becoming an important player on this team next season i hope we keep him
I totally agree. It's amazing that people are ok to have Kaberle back or have AK and Lats return but want to get rid of Bourque so quick.

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06-26-2012, 11:15 PM
  #902
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I totally agree. It's amazing that people are ok to have Kaberle back or have AK and Lats return but want to get rid of Bourque so quick.
This.

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06-27-2012, 12:31 AM
  #903
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I totally agree. It's amazing that people are ok to have Kaberle back or have AK and Lats return but want to get rid of Bourque so quick.
thing with Bourque is that he's at his best when he is fully emotionally engaged, but pretty much as soon as he signed his long-term deal, that engagement went out the window.

He doesn't have great hockey sense, isn't very good with the puck on his stick, and tends to make poor decisions under pressure (be it in the defensive or offensive zone).

When he's playing "hard" (as much as I hate resorting to somewhat cliched comments like that), he has the size/skating/shot to put up some solid production (as he did for most of 2 seasons in Calgary), but when he doesn't use those assets (plays without full engagement), he doesn't have the pure skill to be effective.

imo, his best role with the habs would be to play on Desharnais's wing... he needs to play on a line with a solid puck distributor, but ideally on a line that won't often be matched up against a top-offensive line. Perhaps Therrien will experiment with that, but if he elects to keep Maxpac/DD/Cole together, I don't like the fit of Bourque on Pleks line (which should continue to see top-match-up duties), or on Eller's line (who imo should be paired with more creative wingers to help make the most of his skill set).

at 3.3M$ for 4 more years... if there is any chance to move him Bergie should jump on it. As much as not everyone can put up 25+goals, overall I think he's a player that is/would be relatively easy to replace b/c I'm not at all confident that he'll give us (or be put in the role to give us) the 25+g/50+pt production that would justify his caphit/term.

Gomez is definitely a more important mistake to fix, but imo Kaberle/Bourque are pretty much in the same boat... one-way ticket out of town as soon as an offer/opportunity to unload them appears.

would love for him (or gomez, or kaberle) to prove me wrong...

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Old
06-27-2012, 05:31 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Bourque and Iginla were usually on different lines in Calgary. His best seasons were as a duo with Langkow whose a lesser version of Plekanec. The problem isn't that Bourque was better supported in Calgary, the problem is that he fell off a cliff over in how good he is over this year and the last.
Bourque played significant minutes with Iginla. I love how our posters immediately try to discredit someone like PAP, because he played with Tavares, who isn't nearly as accomplished as Iggy, but when it comes to our own players, we like to judge them in a vaccuum. 25-30goals somewhere else doesn't necessarily translate to 30 goals here.


This fan base makes me laugh at times. Ride on AK, drive him out of town, and then go on ad nauseum about how a much inferior player is good to have on our roster. I love it.

Pierre Gauthier screwed the pooch on this deal. He should of been fired for it alone.

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06-27-2012, 05:33 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
how are they uninformed? Because you disagree with them? I don't think he'll get more than 15G this year and worry that he will channel Kovalev's fighting spirit. They've seen the same games everyone else has. They believe he can bounce back and be productive, they have a good chance of it happening. I hope they are right.

to insulate him Bergevin really needs to resign Moen, and get a top 6 winger
No, because they're wrong.

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06-27-2012, 06:54 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Bourque played significant minutes with Iginla. I love how our posters immediately try to discredit someone like PAP, because he played with Tavares, who isn't nearly as accomplished as Iggy, but when it comes to our own players, we like to judge them in a vaccuum. 25-30goals somewhere else doesn't necessarily translate to 30 goals here.
Percentages of 5on5 ice-time linemates for Bourque:

2008-09: 44.3% Langkow / 32.3% Bertuzzi / 29.4% Conroy / 18.4% Lombardi

2009-10: 51.3% Langkow / 40.5% Nigel Dawes / 24.4% Iginla / 18.2% Stajan

2010-11: 43.7% Jokinen / 31.6% Glencross / 22.8% Hagman /18.5 Morrison / 14.7% Stajan

Only in one year of his last 3 full seasons with Calgary was Iginla one of the four most frequent linemates for Bourque and Iginla was merely 3rd that year.

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06-27-2012, 07:09 AM
  #907
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thing with Bourque is that he's at his best when he is fully emotionally engaged, but pretty much as soon as he signed his long-term deal, that engagement went out the window.

He doesn't have great hockey sense, isn't very good with the puck on his stick, and tends to make poor decisions under pressure (be it in the defensive or offensive zone).

When he's playing "hard" (as much as I hate resorting to somewhat cliched comments like that), he has the size/skating/shot to put up some solid production (as he did for most of 2 seasons in Calgary), but when he doesn't use those assets (plays without full engagement), he doesn't have the pure skill to be effective.

imo, his best role with the habs would be to play on Desharnais's wing... he needs to play on a line with a solid puck distributor, but ideally on a line that won't often be matched up against a top-offensive line. Perhaps Therrien will experiment with that, but if he elects to keep Maxpac/DD/Cole together, I don't like the fit of Bourque on Pleks line (which should continue to see top-match-up duties), or on Eller's line (who imo should be paired with more creative wingers to help make the most of his skill set).

at 3.3M$ for 4 more years... if there is any chance to move him Bergie should jump on it. As much as not everyone can put up 25+goals, overall I think he's a player that is/would be relatively easy to replace b/c I'm not at all confident that he'll give us (or be put in the role to give us) the 25+g/50+pt production that would justify his caphit/term.

Gomez is definitely a more important mistake to fix, but imo Kaberle/Bourque are pretty much in the same boat... one-way ticket out of town as soon as an offer/opportunity to unload them appears.

would love for him (or gomez, or kaberle) to prove me wrong...
I don't think Gomez will get a chance to prove anything. They need his cap hit off the books unless they can't add the quality of player they want.

Bourque and Kaberle I think they could be moved in the right situation or could stay, it probably depends on other moves. If we can add a top 4 calibre stay at home d-man who can play 18-20 minutes a night then Kaberle is expendable. Bourque before we move him we'd have to add 2 or 3 top 9 calibre wingers, so I don't see him going anywhere. Best to give the new coaching staff a chance to get him going.

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Old
06-27-2012, 08:03 AM
  #908
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I wouldn't mind seeing:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Parenteau - Plekanec - Gionta
Bourque - Eller - Leblanc
Moen - Prust - Moen
Geoffrion

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban
Kaberle - Souray
Weber

Price
Budaj

- I would keep Bourque because I believe in him getting 25+ goals again
- Gomez may go but I don't see Kaberle going anywhere
- Bring Souray back to add character, toughness and a shot on the PP
- Sign Parenteau and Prust
- Let Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, Galchenyuk, Gallagher and Kristo develop for next season

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Old
06-27-2012, 08:10 AM
  #909
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let's laugh a bit this is to me the worst case possible!

Pacioretty Plekanec Cole
Leblanc Derharnais Parenteau
Bourque Gomez Gionta
Moen Eller White
Staubitz


Markov Gorges
Subban Salvador
Emelin Kaberle
Diaz Weber

Price
Budaj

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Old
06-27-2012, 08:12 AM
  #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
...
at 3.3M$ for 4 more years... if there is any chance to move him Bergie should jump on it. As much as not everyone can put up 25+goals, overall I think he's a player that is/would be relatively easy to replace b/c I'm not at all confident that he'll give us (or be put in the role to give us) the 25+g/50+pt production that would justify his caphit/term.

Gomez is definitely a more important mistake to fix, but imo Kaberle/Bourque are pretty much in the same boat... one-way ticket out of town as soon as an offer/opportunity to unload them appears.

would love for him (or gomez, or kaberle) to prove me wrong...
"This" for me. And if I say I'd rather have Kostitsyn or Latendresse, it's because I caveat that with saying I want them only on short-term deals (preferably just 1-year).

*None* of them are players I actually want. But if we're rolling the dice on inconsistent or risky 2nd/3rd line wingers (and we need some for the coming season), then I'd rather do it on my terms.

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06-27-2012, 08:49 AM
  #911
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Jiri Hudler-Tomas Plekanec-Brian Gionta
Max Pacioretty-David Desharnais-Erik Cole
Rene Bourque-Lars Eller-Ryan White
Travis Moen-Paul Gaustad-Brad Staubitz

Josh Gorges-P.K. Subban
Andrei Markov-Alexei Emelin
Tomas Kaberle-Pavel Kubina
Yannick Weber

Carey Price
Peter Budaj

Tried to do this from CapGeek but didn't work.

Overpaid for free agents, gave big raises to RFAs but with Gomer in the minors it still works.

Lars gets better wingers later when Louis and Geoffrion force a recall and Bork is traded for future considerations.

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Old
06-27-2012, 09:11 AM
  #912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
I totally agree. It's amazing that people are ok to have Kaberle back or have AK and Lats return but want to get rid of Bourque so quick.
Kaberle was much more productive than Bourque. That says more about how bad Bourque was than how good Kaberle was. The Bourque we saw last season was worthless. Kaberle wasn't our PP saviour, but as a puck-moving D he did the job and put up decent points.

That said, I agree that Bourque's past production earns him another shot to step up, especially since his trade value is currently zero. A 25-goal scorer has value, assuming that skill is transferable to Montreal. He wouldn't be the first player to lose his offensive mojo when he came here; the question is whether our new coach and new chemistry will bring back his production, or if he'll become another guy to fall into the Habs offensive coma.

I'm hoping Kaberle and Bourque play well enough to be traded by next year's deadline. We're not winning a Cup next year, so let's clear the books of unneeded salaries so we have cap space for some prime UFAs in summer 2013.

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Old
06-27-2012, 09:15 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Habitant le colon View Post
let's laugh a bit this is to me the worst case possible!

Pacioretty Plekanec Cole
Leblanc Derharnais Parenteau
Bourque Gomez Gionta
Moen Eller White
Staubitz


Markov Gorges
Subban Salvador
Emelin Kaberle
Diaz Weber

Price
Budaj
It's already the worst case by putting Gomz in the line up. But to move Eller out of the 3rd line in his favor?

I would quit this team, I really would.

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Old
06-27-2012, 09:31 AM
  #914
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Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
It's already the worst case by putting Gomz in the line up. But to move Eller out of the 3rd line in his favor?

I would quit this team, I really would.
I first think to put Gomez as 4th line center but when i write the word worst I do rewrite him as the third center to show how bad the situation can be next October !!!

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06-27-2012, 10:07 AM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
"This" for me. And if I say I'd rather have Kostitsyn or Latendresse, it's because I caveat that with saying I want them only on short-term deals (preferably just 1-year).

*None* of them are players I actually want. But if we're rolling the dice on inconsistent or risky 2nd/3rd line wingers (and we need some for the coming season), then I'd rather do it on my terms.
exactly...

2nd/3rd line inconsistent wingers aren't the kind of players you want on long-term deals. on a 1-year deal, I'd be fine with any of the three (or any other similar player), as we do certainly have the need, but being stuck with any of them long-term at 3M+ is not ideal.

Personally think Lats, if healthy, would be the best fit, and even if we keep Bourque, I'd love to see him signed on a short-term "show me what you got" deal.

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06-27-2012, 10:10 AM
  #916
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Kaberle was much more productive than Bourque. That says more about how bad Bourque was than how good Kaberle was. The Bourque we saw last season was worthless. Kaberle wasn't our PP saviour, but as a puck-moving D he did the job and put up decent points.

That said, I agree that Bourque's past production earns him another shot to step up, especially since his trade value is currently zero. A 25-goal scorer has value, assuming that skill is transferable to Montreal. He wouldn't be the first player to lose his offensive mojo when he came here; the question is whether our new coach and new chemistry will bring back his production, or if he'll become another guy to fall into the Habs offensive coma.

I'm hoping Kaberle and Bourque play well enough to be traded by next year's deadline. We're not winning a Cup next year, so let's clear the books of unneeded salaries so we have cap space for some prime UFAs in summer 2013.
Kaberle did not help the PP and he was abysmal defensively.

If he's back, we're in trouble.

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06-27-2012, 10:12 AM
  #917
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I hire Pierre Gauthier as a special advisor and let him do all the work.

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Old
06-27-2012, 10:16 AM
  #918
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Kaberle did not help the PP and he was abysmal defensively.

If he's back, we're in trouble.
The PP was 6 or 7% better with him.

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Old
06-27-2012, 10:19 AM
  #919
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Sign Parenteau and Latendresse. Both can be honest and talented 2/3rd line wingers.

Hell, if Lats actually recovered well and show up on the ice, he'll be a great fit for Desharnais. Big and talented.

Gionta - Plekanek - Cole
Pacioretty - Desharnais - Parenteau
Bourque - Eller - Latendresse

You have a very good mix of weight and talent, with plenty of flexibility left if you want to go heavier or more mobile.

And we will have plenty of talented Quebecois, enough to give us a free pass to hire whomever we want on the D AND the 4th line. We can afford to do away with Darche. You can afford to have this sort of 4th line:

Moen-White-Prust
Staubitz

Moen as PK specialist.

And we would still have enough money to sight a good Top 4 defenseman.

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Old
06-27-2012, 10:55 AM
  #920
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The PP was 6 or 7% better with him.
Had nothing to do with him. He's terrible - not sure why you can't see it.

No one around the NHL liked the deal from the Habs perspective and it didn't work out.

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Old
06-27-2012, 10:57 AM
  #921
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Had nothing to do with him. He's terrible - not sure why you can't see it.

No one around the NHL liked the deal from the Habs perspective and it didn't work out.
Yup, the guy's been a perennial all star, Boston traded a 1st and top prospect for 3-4 months of him but he is useless and I'm the only one that can't see it...riiggghhhtt

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06-27-2012, 10:59 AM
  #922
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The PP was 6 or 7% better with him.
The Habs' shooting percentage was going to regress eventually. For a long stretch before the Kaberle acquisition the Habs' had a better shooting percentage at even-strength than they did on the powerplay.

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06-27-2012, 11:01 AM
  #923
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Yup, the guy's been a perennial all star, Boston traded a 1st and top prospect for 3-4 months of him but he is useless and I'm the only one that can't see it...riiggghhhtt
When was he last an all star? Boston had him and offered his rights to any team in the league - with no takers.

Carolina signed him - and admitted it was a mistake.

He's done.

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Old
06-27-2012, 11:04 AM
  #924
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All you need to know here:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/...rn=nhl,wp19443

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...-tomas-kaberle

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Old
06-27-2012, 11:09 AM
  #925
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Yup, the guy's been a perennial all star, Boston traded a 1st and top prospect for 3-4 months of him but he is useless and I'm the only one that can't see it...riiggghhhtt
Easy with the all star. was the only one who could have represented that **** team of Toronto anyways

And it didn't work out in Boston, the trade for Boston was brutal and they knew and let him walk. After 1 month, Rutherford admitted he made a mistake. It's pretty clear

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