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Accepting NHL´s offer could be a disaster for PA

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12-15-2004, 10:36 AM
  #1
Ola
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Accepting NHL´s offer could be a disaster for PA

From my point of view its seems like the NHL´s offer could turn into a disaster for the players if they accept it.

First of all, a young player have no leverge whats so ever when it comes to negotiating contracts. I agree that arbitration is inflationary spiral but with this offer they would have no leverege unless they are Iginla caliber or 30 y/o. The way I see it seems likely that the talent pool overall in the NHL will drop considerably.(not dramatic but it will notice) Allot of players will get payed better in Russia for example. NHL will still attract the real stars and these players will get payed really well. Teams who never givesin in contract negotiations and keeps their lesser skilled players really low paid or lets them hold out will be successful. Its the teams who will be able to do this who will be able to attract the great players. This if anything would be a evil spiral that will hurt the players tremendously.

Second, with gauranteed contracts and a small window for teams in the cap between $38.6 million and $34.6 million will make the transfer market crazy. Players will be wheeled and dealt all over the place all the time. If a important player goes down it will be impossible to replace them.

As a result of the small cap window the majority of contracts will be really short. I wouldn´t be suprised if we started seeing 3 month and 6 month contracts out there for role players. If you combine this with the likely scenario of having a huge % of the players paid around 800K to 1500K is a tremendous blow for the PA.

Bettman is holding the game of hockey, the fans and the players hostage and playing with really high stakes. He is gambling with the entire american market. His track record in the NHL is terrible. Still this guys gets a standing ovation in hockeys home country Canada. Unbelivable. The fact that the majority of fans and media in Canada is supporting Bettman just because it would make Ottawa and Edmonton more competetive makes me sick... Well what do I know. I am only a hockey fanatic from sweden. Lets give bettman another standing ovation!


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12-15-2004, 10:52 AM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola
From my point of view its seems like the NHL´s offer could turn into a disaster for the players if they accept it.

First of all, a young player have no leverge whats so ever when it comes to negotiating contracts. I agree that arbitration is inflationary spiral but with this offer they would have no leverege unless they are Iginla caliber or 30 y/o. The way I see it seems likely that the talent pool overall in the NHL will drop considerably.(not dramatic but it will notice) Allot of players will get payed better in Russia for example. NHL will still attract the real stars and these players will get payed really well. Teams who never givesin in contract negotiations and keeps their lesser skilled players really low paid or lets them hold out will be successful. Its the teams who will be able to do this who will be able to attract the great players. This if anything would be a evil spiral that will hurt the players tremendously.

Second, with gauranteed contracts and a small window for teams in the cap between $38.6 million and $34.6 million will make the transfer market crazy. Players will be wheeled and dealt all over the place all the time. If a important player goes down it will be impossible to replace them.

As a result of the small cap window the majority of contracts will be really short. I wouldn´t be suprised if we started seeing 3 month and 6 month contracts out there for role players. If you combine this with the likely scenario of having a huge % of the players paid around 800K to 1500K is a tremendous blow for the PA.

Bettman is holding the game of hockey, the fans and the players hostage and playing with really high stakes. He is gambling with the entire american market. His track record in the NHL is terrible. Still this guys gets a standing ovation in hockeys home country Canada. Unbelivable. The fact that the majority of fans and media in Canada is supporting Bettman just because it would make Ottawa and Edmonton more competetive makes me sick... Well what do I know. I am only a hockey fanatic from sweden. Lets give bettman another standing ovation!
A disaster where their average wage would be 1.5 M and would rise as they helped the game grow.

Where do I sign up for my share of this "disaster"?

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12-15-2004, 10:55 AM
  #3
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weasel man

How would Ottawa be more competitive? THey would be less competitive.

Unfortunately for the logically deprived (see above poster) they support the owners.

Hope the Weasel goes extinct and we can get a real commissioner and some honest owners who are willing to let market forces (with restraints necessary to build the product) decide. Best teams should win, not the ones with the most 'cap room' and/or luckiest.

Lets go Players, Lets Go

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12-15-2004, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
A disaster where their average wage would be 1.5 M and would rise as they helped the game grow.
Yes if the median salary is 800K. 95% of the players would give hockey 30 years and come away with a million or two saved in the bank. Not bad but truly a disaster if you compare with what they have today... Also truley a disaster if you look at the big picture and what they ought to earn. Although thinks aren´t OK as it is today I can´t see how this would be the answear...

Do you?

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12-15-2004, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
A disaster where their average wage would be 1.5 M and would rise as they helped the game grow.

Where do I sign up for my share of this "disaster"?
No kidding. Multi-million dollar salaries would be terrible for the players. They're not the ones losing money here.

As for entry-level contracts: Is $800,000 not enough for a 19 year old? These guys will all be millionaires by the 2nd year anyway. What's the problem?

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12-15-2004, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola
Yes if the median salary is 800K. 95% of the players would give hockey 30 years and come away with a million or two saved in the bank. Not bad but truly a disaster if you compare with what they have today... Also truley a disaster if you look at the big picture and what they ought to earn. Although thinks aren´t OK as it is today I can´t see how this would be the answear...

Do you?
Learn how to do simple math. $800,000/year x 30 years = $24,000,000!

The interest alone on 24 million would add millions to that figure. Can you elaborate on how 95% of the players would blow over $20 million?

Secondly, how is making $800,000 a "disaster"? I would kill to make that kind of coin. Thats over 20 times what I make a year. Please get in touch with reality!

Finally, you mentioned that many NHL'ers will get paid better in Russia? How do you figure? Russia is a very poor country in relation to any Western Democracy. The most they would offer the players would be in the neighborhood of $200,000. That's why the NHL has all the leverage over the NHLPA. The players have no alternative, unless they enjoy playing in some foreign country for 1/5 of their NHL salary!

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12-15-2004, 11:18 AM
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Dont be jealous because youre in a middle of the road job like 98% of the population and dont have the skillset or demand to see you work. The players generate probably 99% of the revenues. They are the product.

The players play the games, the fans follow the PLAYERS on their teams, the players are the face, they are the reason that people buy tickets.

The players are the product. They pretty much are the reason that 2.1 billion is generated. They should be paid according to what the owners think they are worth.

No reason for a sensible fan to want the owners to rake in the profits, when it is ensured that those profits could not be reinvested into the players (prpoduct)

How stupid are the masses anyway? Surpassing even my lowest expectations (in the wrong direction).

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12-15-2004, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets4Life
Learn how to do simple math. $800,000/year x 30 years = $24,000,000!

The interest alone on 24 million would add millions to that figure. Can you elaborate on how 95% of the players would blow over $20 million?

Secondly, how is making $800,000 a "disaster"? I would kill to make that kind of coin. Thats over 20 times what I make a year. Please get in touch with reality!

Finally, you mentioned that many NHL'ers will get paid better in Russia? How do you figure? Russia is a very poor country in relation to any Western Democracy. The most they would offer the players would be in the neighborhood of $200,000. That's why the NHL has all the leverage over the NHLPA. The players have no alternative, unless they enjoy playing in some foreign country for 1/5 of their NHL salary!
Well if they are playing in Canada they lose 52% of their salary before they even get it due to taxes. So 800k is really only about 384K a year after taxes, assuming they spend about 100k a year with 15% tax on that (average Can sales tax) thats another 115K gone leaving about 269K so if a player plays for an average 800K a year for the league average of about 13 years they only save about 3.5 mil which isnt alot of money when you consider that they're retiring at an age of 33-34 and have 40 or more years to live.

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12-15-2004, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaredsensfan

Unfortunately for the logically deprived (see above poster) they support the owners.
Like Brian Burke who would absolutely squash the PA, even if it meant locking them out 3 years. I'll take that deal!

The problem (for you and some others) is that Gary Bettman is carrying out the mandate of the NHL Board of Governors. He is doing what is asked of him and doing his job. He will not be fired. Case closed.

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12-15-2004, 11:37 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola
From my point of view its seems like the NHL´s offer could turn into a disaster for the players if they accept it.

First of all, a young player have no leverge whats so ever when it comes to negotiating contracts. I agree that arbitration is inflationary spiral but with this offer they would have no leverege unless they are Iginla caliber or 30 y/o. The way I see it seems likely that the talent pool overall in the NHL will drop considerably.(not dramatic but it will notice) Allot of players will get payed better in Russia for example. NHL will still attract the real stars and these players will get payed really well. Teams who never givesin in contract negotiations and keeps their lesser skilled players really low paid or lets them hold out will be successful. Its the teams who will be able to do this who will be able to attract the great players. This if anything would be a evil spiral that will hurt the players tremendously.

Second, with gauranteed contracts and a small window for teams in the cap between $38.6 million and $34.6 million will make the transfer market crazy. Players will be wheeled and dealt all over the place all the time. If a important player goes down it will be impossible to replace them.

As a result of the small cap window the majority of contracts will be really short. I wouldn´t be suprised if we started seeing 3 month and 6 month contracts out there for role players. If you combine this with the likely scenario of having a huge % of the players paid around 800K to 1500K is a tremendous blow for the PA.

Bettman is holding the game of hockey, the fans and the players hostage and playing with really high stakes. He is gambling with the entire american market. His track record in the NHL is terrible. Still this guys gets a standing ovation in hockeys home country Canada. Unbelivable. The fact that the majority of fans and media in Canada is supporting Bettman just because it would make Ottawa and Edmonton more competetive makes me sick... Well what do I know. I am only a hockey fanatic from sweden. Lets give bettman another standing ovation!
Are you familiar with the baseball agreement?Baseball players in the first three seasons of their career have no leverage and the team decides how much to pay them and players can not do anything about it.After their third season,they can file for arbitration.The first three years is called paying dues and your time will come

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12-15-2004, 11:39 AM
  #11
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THe NHLPA will not bend like so many of the users here think. They are a close unit, and the break Bettman and the owners.

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12-15-2004, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy
Are you familiar with the baseball agreement?Baseball players in the first three seasons of their career have no leverage and the team decides how much to pay them and players can not do anything about it.After their third season,they can file for arbitration.The first three years is called paying dues and your time will come
OK. But with the owners' proposal the NHL players will be paying their dues until they're 30 years old.

Can you say, qualifying offer each and every year until you're 30?

If arbitration was eliminated a salary cap isn't even needed. A GM like Brian Burke would force his players to accept qualifying offers until they turn 30.

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12-15-2004, 11:46 AM
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dude, fans follow teams
they become fans of certain players because they are on the team they like. this is evidenced by the fact that when certain players leave teams they get the hell booed out of them. the players are alot easier to replace than the franchises

Quote:
Originally Posted by scaredsensfan
Dont be jealous because youre in a middle of the road job like 98% of the population and dont have the skillset or demand to see you work. The players generate probably 99% of the revenues. They are the product.

The players play the games, the fans follow the PLAYERS on their teams, the players are the face, they are the reason that people buy tickets.

The players are the product. They pretty much are the reason that 2.1 billion is generated. They should be paid according to what the owners think they are worth.

No reason for a sensible fan to want the owners to rake in the profits, when it is ensured that those profits could not be reinvested into the players (prpoduct)

How stupid are the masses anyway? Surpassing even my lowest expectations (in the wrong direction).

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12-15-2004, 11:48 AM
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But what can the players do? They are screwed now. No matter what happens, they will lose money, and the owners have set it up so that their way is the way where they lose the least amount of money.

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12-15-2004, 11:50 AM
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umm i think you can live very comfortably on 3.5 mill for 40 years...especially in Canada
yeah maybe you wouldnt be mr. high roller with a summer home in three different countries but you also certainly wouldnt have to stress out when its time to buy a new car

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjbth
Well if they are playing in Canada they lose 52% of their salary before they even get it due to taxes. So 800k is really only about 384K a year after taxes, assuming they spend about 100k a year with 15% tax on that (average Can sales tax) thats another 115K gone leaving about 269K so if a player plays for an average 800K a year for the league average of about 13 years they only save about 3.5 mil which isnt alot of money when you consider that they're retiring at an age of 33-34 and have 40 or more years to live.

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12-15-2004, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave
But what can the players do? They are screwed now. No matter what happens, they will lose money, and the owners have set it up so that their way is the way where they lose the least amount of money.

How are the players screwed. Unlike the owners, the players will just go over and play across the sea, while the NHL won't be granted an impasse, and the owners will keep losing money.

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12-15-2004, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola
Yes if the median salary is 800K. 95% of the players would give hockey 30 years and come away with a million or two saved in the bank. Not bad but truly a disaster if you compare with what they have today... Also truley a disaster if you look at the big picture and what they ought to earn. Although thinks aren´t OK as it is today I can´t see how this would be the answear...

Do you?
That's the rub though, isn't it? What ought they to earn?

Considering the overall lack of entertainment value and low TV contract, do the players deserve a 1.8 million average salary? I don't blame them for all the game's woes, but neither are they innocent bystanders. They're the ones doing the hooking and waterskiing through the neutral zone, and they're also the loudest complainers when the refs actually try to crack down on it and you get the resultant 20 power plays per night. They deserve some blame.

How is lowering that average to 1.3-1.5M more of a disaster than their current predicament of not playing at all or playing in leagues that pay much less than even that in average salary?

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12-15-2004, 11:56 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Internet King
How are the players screwed. Unlike the owners, the players will just go over and play across the sea, while the NHL won't be granted an impasse, and the owners will keep losing money.
Go play overseas where they make a percentage of what they would make even with a salary cap?

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12-15-2004, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaredsensfan
Dont be jealous because youre in a middle of the road job like 98% of the population and dont have the skillset or demand to see you work. The players generate probably 99% of the revenues. They are the product.

The players play the games, the fans follow the PLAYERS on their teams, the players are the face, they are the reason that people buy tickets.

The players are the product. They pretty much are the reason that 2.1 billion is generated. They should be paid according to what the owners think they are worth.

No reason for a sensible fan to want the owners to rake in the profits, when it is ensured that those profits could not be reinvested into the players (prpoduct)
I support the owners side and I don't necessarily want them to "rake in the profits" - I just want all sides to be on solid financial ground so the league can remain viable and healthy. The players will still be getting the lion's share of the money at the end of the day.

They've been offered 54% of the revenues and Bettman said that they would be willing to negotiate this figure. For the 2002-03 season, revenues were $1.996 billion. Players got $1.494 billion in salaries and benefits (75% of the pie.) $775 million went to other operating costs (travel, arena leases, team staff, scouting, etc.) That's 39% of revenues. Assuming that percentage holds the same, the owners will get at most, 7% of the total pie in profit. And remember, the league has said they'll negotiate on the 54% figure so the owners may very well wind up with less.

This plan gives all sides incentives to improve the game and increase revenues. If league revenues increase, the $38.6 million cap per team increases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scaredsensfan
How stupid are the masses anyway? Surpassing even my lowest expectations (in the wrong direction).
I can't help but notice that in the war between the two sides, the insults are all coming from the same direction. This holds true for both the sides themselves and the groups of fans that support their respective sides.

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Old
12-15-2004, 12:00 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola

First of all, a young player have no leverge whats so ever when it comes to negotiating contracts. I agree that arbitration is inflationary spiral but with this offer they would have no leverege unless they are Iginla caliber or 30 y/o. The way I see it seems likely that the talent pool overall in the NHL will drop considerably.(not dramatic but it will notice) Allot of players will get payed better in Russia for example. NHL will still attract the real stars and these players will get payed really well. Teams who never givesin in contract negotiations and keeps their lesser skilled players really low paid or lets them hold out will be successful. Its the teams who will be able to do this who will be able to attract the great players. This if anything would be a evil spiral that will hurt the players tremendously.

Bettman is holding the game of hockey, the fans and the players hostage and playing with really high stakes. He is gambling with the entire american market. His track record in the NHL is terrible. Still this guys gets a standing ovation in hockeys home country Canada. Unbelivable. The fact that the majority of fans and media in Canada is supporting Bettman just because it would make Ottawa and Edmonton more competetive makes me sick... Well what do I know. I am only a hockey fanatic from sweden. Lets give bettman another standing ovation!
What do you know? Apparently nothing. The majority of fans everywhere are less sympathetic to the players as they are the owners. I won't go so far as to suggest fans everywhere agree with the owners...

The talent level won't drop even under a cap system. The owners will ensure that they're able to offer more than any other league in the world for the very reason of keeping and attracting the best players. But for arguments sake, even if you are correct, it's the middle level players who might go to Europe - not the bottom third players. These guys are mostly Canadian and grew up with the NHL and the Stanley Cup. They aren't going to Europe to get paid the same or less.

Give the Canada bashing a rest because, as a Swede, you have very little credibility in the hockey sense. Sweden is the most over rated hockey country in the world, so your baseless ranting about Canada being the problem in hockey is nothing more than childish nonsense. It's too bad, because it's people like you who give their fellow countrymen a bad name.

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12-15-2004, 12:01 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave
Go play overseas where they make a percentage of what they would make even with a salary cap?

It doesn't matter how much the pay is. They'll still be playing hockey, and still be getting paid, well the Gary Bettman and the NHL can work their PR image here in the States.

There will be no Salary Cap. And I'm with the players on this one.

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12-15-2004, 12:01 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
OK. But with the owners' proposal the NHL players will be paying their dues until they're 30 years old.

Can you say, qualifying offer each and every year until you're 30?

If arbitration was eliminated a salary cap isn't even needed. A GM like Brian Burke would force his players to accept qualifying offers until they turn 30.
I did not mention salary arbitration.I heard Brian Burke say on TSN last night that he wanted salary arbitration to be part of a new CBA but with changes

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12-15-2004, 12:03 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiped Krusader
This plan gives all sides incentives to improve the game and increase revenues. If league revenues increase, the $38.6 million cap per team increases.
This is important. After all, the players are what brings in the money. They should have at least some of the responsibilty to make sure money is made.

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12-15-2004, 12:07 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Internet King
It doesn't matter how much the pay is. They'll still be playing hockey, and still be getting paid, well the Gary Bettman and the NHL can work their PR image here in the States.

There will be no Salary Cap. And I'm with the players on this one.
And they would still be playing hockey if they accepted a cap. And, they'd be making 10 times the money to boot.

I'm sorry, but the players aren't going to hold out and make less money just to make a point. In the end, they will have to cut their losses and cave before even the NHL becomes unnattractive.

These guys would rather not play in Europe. They have wives and families that can't just relocate to another continent.

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12-15-2004, 12:07 PM
  #25
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Look at Derek Jeter's salary in his first three seasons

1996 New York Yankees $130,000
1997 New York Yankees $550,000
1998 New York Yankees $750,000

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jeterde01.shtml

Lower right hand corner

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