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12-03-2004, 10:31 PM
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Constantine Booted

I'd have to say it's a rare thing for a WHL coach to get booted from a game...especially one he is winning on the road, but with about 5 or 6 minutes to go in the 2nd period tonight & the Silvertips beating Portland 1-0 in Portland, Constantine got his 2nd bench minor and a Game Misconduct by the on Ice referee (Savage). I'm listening to the game on the Silvertips web broadcast, so I don;t know exactly what happened, but the radio guys (who admittedly are major homers) are talking about the calls on both teams being totally bush league tonight. Ofcourse the Hawks only have 6 PIM after 2 periods and the Tips have 8 non-bench PIM. Any Hawks fans in attendance have any insight about what happened?

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12-03-2004, 10:45 PM
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Doesn't surprise me. When Everett was in Prince George, Constantine spent more time berating the officials than concentrating on what his team was doing on the ice.

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12-04-2004, 09:08 AM
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well..the portland website says that he was "sarcastically applauding" savage after the too many men on the ice call....and savage saw him and booted him...he wouldn't leave....and when he finally crawled his way across the ice, he did NOT leave the arena but continued to watch the 2nd period from the corner

can't he get a suspension or something for not leaving the arena immediately like the rules say?

anyway...very, very, very childish behavior...I don't care how poorly the game was or wasn't called...a coach should NOT act like that...what is he teaching his players by acting like that?

I've always liked the guy...but I am disappointed in his bahavior last night

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12-04-2004, 01:31 PM
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I'll tell you what he is teaching his players: WIN

He sticks up for them and they perform for him. Why in baseball were we so happy when Lou Pinniela got tossed? Because his players respected that he'd put himself between them and bad officiating. He concentrates on that, the players concentrate on playing. And winning. Check the record.

:lol

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12-04-2004, 09:18 PM
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disagree

MikeS,
I have to respectfully disagree. I think there is a certain point where you've taken it too far. In baseball it is common for coaches to get ejected after a perceived horrible call. In Hockey it is almost unheard of. To compare the two is like comparing night and day. As a Tips fan I like the antics of Constantine on the bench when he animatedly argues a call...but at the point where he is hurting his team by drawing penalties and embarrising the franchise by failing ot follow the rules of the game. It's one thing to get ejected, but to blatantly ignore the rules and stay in the area after being ejected.

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12-04-2004, 09:18 PM
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I disagree...he seems to be teaching his players to act high and mighty and that rules can be ignored

arguing over a call and standing up for a player is one thing...acting like a spoiled child is another

and, as I mentioned previously, I've always had great respect for the guy..but he slipped a few notches after last night's episode

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12-04-2004, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
I'll tell you what he is teaching his players: WIN

He sticks up for them and they perform for him. Why in baseball were we so happy when Lou Pinniela got tossed? Because his players respected that he'd put himself between them and bad officiating. He concentrates on that, the players concentrate on playing. And winning. Check the record.
I'm sorry, but berating officials has absolutely **** all to do with winning.

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12-05-2004, 12:53 AM
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Calling a spade a spade is ok in my book. What he does has everything to do with winning. The league is developmental for officials too, and there are good ones and bad ones, good nights and bad nights. If Constantine (or Habsheid or Hay) stand up for their players when they are getting mugged and some homer referee fails to call it, I say the players play harder for them. You can't argue with success.

As far as baseball and hockey are concerened, I know there is a difference. The point I was making is keep the player from griping by letting the coach tell it like it is. The coaches know when a player is hamming it up or when he really has a legit beef. It is not only his right, but his obligation to point it out. He knows the risk (bench minor) and accepts it.

The rarity of ejections probably points to a thin-skinned referee in this case. I bet Constantine did nothing more than he usually does in these instances and nothing more than most coaches do.


Last edited by MikeS: 12-05-2004 at 01:07 AM.
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12-05-2004, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
homer referee
In a league that travels its referees, there are no homer referees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
The rarity of ejections probably points to a thin-skinned referee in this case. I bet Constantine did nothing more than he usually does in these instances and nothing more than most coaches do.
Yup. Your team's coach is right.

...And you're suggesting some referees are "homers".

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12-05-2004, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
In a league that travels its referees, there are no homer referees.



Yup. Your team's coach is right.

...And you're suggesting some referees are "homers".
When ever Constantine is in Kelowna he looks like Dempsey, red faced from whining all night.

I miss seeing Dempsey, every two minutes you look over at him his face get more red by the minute!

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12-05-2004, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upchuck19
When ever Constantine is in Kelowna he looks like Dempsey, red faced from whining all night.

I miss seeing Dempsey, every two minutes you look over at him his face get more red by the minute!
go check out a BCHL game....you'll think you're looknig at a whole new/different Dempsey....lol....seriously...I don't know if he's meditating, or doing the yoga thing...but the guy has calmed down compared to what he used to be! IT's astonashing...It doesn't look like he's having a heart attack every 5mins on the bench anymore....It's just not the same fun...haha...

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12-05-2004, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadian Chris
go check out a BCHL game....you'll think you're looknig at a whole new/different Dempsey....lol....seriously...I don't know if he's meditating, or doing the yoga thing...but the guy has calmed down compared to what he used to be! IT's astonashing...It doesn't look like he's having a heart attack every 5mins on the bench anymore....It's just not the same fun...haha...
He speaks the truth. Dempsey just gives the typical *****ing that you would expect from a junior hockey coach. In the games I've done this year, he's yelled at his players more than the officials. He really has calmed down.

Personally, I think there is less pressure for him at the Jr.A level than there was at the Major Junior level, and guess what....he has his team in first place.

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12-06-2004, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
In a league that travels its referees, there are no homer referees.
Sure there are...more calls that favor the home team. Who wants to get booed?

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12-06-2004, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
Sure there are...more calls that favor the home team. Who wants to get booed?
If I'm a referee from Prince George, calling a game between Brandon and Regina, what reason do I have to favour the home team?

At the WHL level, which is one step from the NHL, negative fan reaction does not intimidate referees. To think it does is just plain ignorance. To even get to the WHL level, referees must prove they can handle the pressure.

Nobody wants to get booed, but as an official, it's part of the game.

As for the comment about more calls favouring the home team....equal does not always mean fair, and fair does not always mean equal.

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12-09-2004, 10:39 AM
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Fined, no suspension

The WHL has fined Constantine for the second time this season. Constantine was tossed out of Everett's win over Portland on Dec. 3 and it will cost him $250. Earlier this season, Constantine was fined $500 was not being available to the media in Prince George.

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12-11-2004, 02:49 AM
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I think it a bit naive to think that no referee ever caves in to pressure from fans or coaches. I think Constantine, one of the best coaches in this league, knows that too. I think everything this guy does is to develop a winning team. His results speak for themselves.

As far as his other $ fine this year, it was not for giving the officials crap, but was for not talking to the media after two losses to PG, as Tipped Off pointed out...

I think, deep down, you know that officials, as human beings, can and are occasionally manipulated. Constantine is not the only coach to do it. He just seems to be pretty damned good at every aspect of his role.

More power to him. The players respect him and they win.

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12-11-2004, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
I think it a bit naive to think that no referee ever caves in to pressure from fans or coaches. I think Constantine, one of the best coaches in this league, knows that too. I think everything this guy does is to develop a winning team. His results speak for themselves.

As far as his other $ fine this year, it was not for giving the officials crap, but was for not talking to the media after two losses to PG, as Tipped Off pointed out...

I think, deep down, you know that officials, as human beings, can and are occasionally manipulated. Constantine is not the only coach to do it. He just seems to be pretty damned good at every aspect of his role.

More power to him. The players respect him and they win.
You don't understand how the officiating system works. To even get a sniff of WHL action, you need to prove yourself at the Jr.A level that you are capable of handling the pressure.

I've done games in front of close to 2,000 fans, albeit on the lines, but when I'm out there, I don't even hear the fans. As an official, you concentrate on your own game more than anything. If you screw up (either as ref or linesman), all you gotta do is say, "sorry boys, my bad", and nine times out of 10 (as long as you don't keep repeating the same mistake), you will get nothing but respect from coaches and players.

If you say "more power to him" for Constantine trying to manipulate referees, then I think you should try officiating some minor hockey in your area. Maybe you will have a bit more respect for the men in stripes. Manipulating officials is not an aspect of coaching.

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12-12-2004, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
If you say "more power to him" for Constantine trying to manipulate referees, then I think you should try officiating some minor hockey in your area. Maybe you will have a bit more respect for the men in stripes. Manipulating officials is not an aspect of coaching.
or, at least it should NOT be an aspect of coaching

refs, much like the players and coaches, are oblivious to the crowd for the most part...they have a job to do, and that is what they are concentrating on

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12-12-2004, 03:45 PM
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I will admit I have never officiated a game, so your point is taken. I can only report what I have witnessed and I have seen far more coaches than just Kevin Constantine who effectively argue calls and get the benefit of the next call. Can you honestly say you have NEVER seen such a thing? Where the coach jaws at the referee, and gets an "even up" call or a benefit somewhere else down the line?

It is when the officials screw up and DON'T make amends, either by apology or consiliation that egos get in the way. Two egos colliding make for incidents like the one in Portland. If you think Constantine will change that tack, I think differently. He is trying to win and HE believes that he can prevail on an official by jawing at him.

Why does Constantine believe he can influence the officiating and you believe he cannot? Who is right? Maybe both. Some officials probably are not very pliable. Some probably are. I think Constantine is figuring it out. I think it is part of who he is as a coach and SOME SMALL PART of his success can be traced to it.

Don't you think that is a reasonable theory? I do.

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12-12-2004, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
I will admit I have never officiated a game, so your point is taken. I can only report what I have witnessed and I have seen far more coaches than just Kevin Constantine who effectively argue calls and get the benefit of the next call. Can you honestly say you have NEVER seen such a thing? Where the coach jaws at the referee, and gets an "even up" call or a benefit somewhere else down the line?
I have seen and done what can be percieved as exactly that, but in reality, maybe once out of 20-30 occurrences is it actually the case, and it will be because a coach actually has a good point and has brought it up to the referee in a respectful manner....not by blowing his stack at the referee. Once a coach loses control over his own temper, any good referee won't give him the time of day for the rest of the game, and if necessary give him a bench minor and/or kick him out of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
I think differently. He is trying to win and HE believes that he can prevail on an official by jawing at him.
If this is the case, then we have identified one reason why Kevin Constantine is a former NHL coach.

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12-12-2004, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
If this is the case, then we have identified one reason why Kevin Constantine is a former NHL coach.
There are a lot of FORMER NHL coaches, and you know as well as I that he didn't leave the NHL as a result of conflicts with officials. Constantine said he has NEVER been tossed from a game in 23 years of coaching until Portland.

Me-thinks he knows the game at the various levels better than you are giving him credit for...and 2,000 people or 20,000 in the building changes little in his approach to the game.

He has said the similarities are far greater than the differences in the various levels he has coached at. I suspect that goes for how to handle officials. As I have continued to say, check the record. His success speaks for itself.

I hope someday you get the opportunity to officiate at any level you aspire to. Maybe then you can be the second person to kick Constantine out of a game in his life. :lol

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12-13-2004, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
Constantine said he has NEVER been tossed from a game in 23 years of coaching until Portland.
So that makes it the referee's fault that Constantine did enough to get tossed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
Me-thinks he knows the game at the various levels better than you are giving him credit for...and 2,000 people or 20,000 in the building changes little in his approach to the game.
So the people in the building has no effect on coaches' approach to the game, but it does for referees throughout a game? You're not making any sense here. Just as a coach could care less how many people are watching, the same can be said for the officials.


I have not once suggested Constantine is not a successful coach. That being said, because of his success, it is plainly obvious that manipulating officials is not part of his coaching plan. If it was, he would have many, many more Game Misconducts on his record.

What I am getting from your comments, is that Constantine can't do anything wrong, and his first Game Misconduct wasn't his fault, but in fact it was the fault of the referee for not having thick enough skin.

I only hope you can see just how ludicrous that sounds.

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12-13-2004, 10:35 AM
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baseball

Well,
I don't have hockey officiating experience, but I did umpire baseball for 5 years at various levels of the minor leagues here in the U.S. Being a season ticketholder I can tell you I don't think Constantine goes into a game thinking about how to manipulate the officials.
That being said, like any good coach, he will "protect" his players by being the one to get the officials attention if he thinks his team might be about to implode because of perceived bad officiating. I can tell you this, the same "crappy" official who is out there for your team is also out there for the other side. For the most part I would say 99.9% of officials don't care who wins. We are human & I would say once out of every 1000 games or so you might run into some guy who has had a bad experience with a team. That doesn't mean he goes out there with intentions to screw that team, but it could mean he hasn't forgotten what has happened in the past & might be a bit quick to blow the whistle.
Just the other night Hromas got blatantly tripped...i mean the guy had his stick around his leg and yanked it so hard Hromas had to be helped off the ice with a twisted knee. The officials call: Diving on Hromas...two minutes. It happened right in front of me. Constantine was livid and screamed at the official. At one point he grabbed a stick, stood with one foot on the bench, the other on the rail and used the stick to grab his own leg and "demonstrate" what happened to Hromas. The official completely ignored it and play resumed. The official was wrong. To his credit he called the rest of the game fairly and didn't let the 7000 tips fans bother him.
Could he have exploded on Constantine and kicked him out for visibly showing him up? Sure. But like I said, for the most part the officials do a good job & they aren't going to make it to the NHL with a history of kicking out coaches and not "controlling" games.

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12-17-2004, 07:51 PM
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No, Van. You need a re-read. You said "former NHL coach" as if the reason for his exodus was because of his troubles with officials.

I speculated that CONSTANTINE'S approach would be no different before 2,000 or 20,000, not every coach, not every official. I guarantee you, the pressure of 20,000 would make a difference in some people. Maybe even you.

So I made perfect sense. Perhaps we should let this go, as you seem think every official is perfect and infallible, something you accuse me of saying about Constantine (which I have not, only that he is very good and gets results with his approach).

If you have no argument with that, then we have no argument.
Peace, Love, 'Tips

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12-18-2004, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
No, Van. You need a re-read. You said "former NHL coach" as if the reason for his exodus was because of his troubles with officials.
I did not suggest that this was an only reason. What I was suggesting that any coach who makes trying to intimidate officials part of his game plan is going to get said coach in a lot of trouble with the league in which he is coaching. Team management staffs in any league won't put up with that. Coaches in trouble get fined. That is something the public rarely hears about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
I speculated that CONSTANTINE'S approach would be no different before 2,000 or 20,000, not every coach, not every official. I guarantee you, the pressure of 20,000 would make a difference in some people. Maybe even you.
Some people, sure. For professional players coaches and officials, the odds are slim to nil. These coaches, players and officials are where they are for a reason. They have all earned their stripes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
So I made perfect sense. Perhaps we should let this go, as you seem think every official is perfect and infallible
Not at all. You're simply saying that because I made a point of putting that on you about your favourite team's coach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS
something you accuse me of saying about Constantine (which I have not, only that he is very good and gets results with his approach).
You can't seem to admit that Constantine did anything wrong in getting kicked out of a game by a neutral third party (the referee), and that manipulating the referees is part of his approach, which I will tell you is absolute bull****. If it was part of his approach, he would have a lot more than one Game Misconduct to his record. Every coach on this planet has yelled at a referee, myself included. Does it mean it is part of the game plan? Hell no.

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