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The Official Jordan Staal Thread, Part III

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Old
05-12-2012, 12:25 PM
  #226
Flat Stanley
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post


Guy just out of the shot on the right is "Dykes".
That can't be real, that has to be photo shopped.

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05-12-2012, 12:34 PM
  #227
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Like the idea of Sharp a lot but he's not as expendable to the Hawks as people think, especially with Hossa's injury woes as he gets older. Sharp is a 30/30 type guy who can play on the PP, PK and play C or W equally well. He's a big part of their F depth. A trade of Sharp for Staal would be more than fair, though. There's no way we get any extra gravy out of that deal...

Frolik = badly overrated. The guy has had every opportunity to excel at this point, playing with the good players and lots of ice time at different points on both teams. I'd take him as an extra. If they wanted to swap Martin / Niskanen for Frolik or something similar, but that's it. No way in hell should he be a centerpiece in a deal for Staal.

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05-12-2012, 12:37 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Like the idea of Sharp a lot but he's not as expendable to the Hawks as people think, especially with Hossa's injury woes as he gets older. Sharp is a 30/30 type guy who can play on the PP, PK and play C or W equally well. He's a big part of their F depth. A trade of Sharp for Staal would be more than fair, though. There's no way we get any extra gravy out of that deal...

Frolik = badly overrated. The guy has had every opportunity to excel at this point, playing with the good players and lots of ice time at different points on both teams. I'd take him as an extra. If they wanted to swap Martin / Niskanen for Frolik or something similar, but that's it. No way in hell should he be a centerpiece in a deal for Staal.
I think hawks do staal for sharp in a heartbeat, I dont think they would add more than a 2nd or 3rd though

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05-12-2012, 12:41 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
I think hawks do staal for sharp in a heartbeat, I dont think they would add more than a 2nd or 3rd though
I don't think they'd add a thing. If he can score 30 with Toews he can score 35+ with Sid or Geno. Like Staal he plays all roles, is a team guy and on top of that has a very good hit for a long period of time.

Anything added would be because we offered more. Maybe add Martin into the deal to clear his space and get one of their F prospects. I think if the deal ever happened it would be straight up. That's a fair and helpful deal to both teams and no lopsided aspect to it other than Staal's age which isn't that big of a deal.

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05-12-2012, 01:08 PM
  #230
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That can't be real, that has to be photo shopped.
Nope. That was the WVU d-line starting 3 for at least the '08 year. Johnny Dingle, Scooter Berry, Keilen Dykes.

<-- WVU alum and season ticket holder

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05-12-2012, 01:10 PM
  #231
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Not only is it real I bet it was intentional.

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05-12-2012, 02:17 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Like the idea of Sharp a lot but he's not as expendable to the Hawks as people think, especially with Hossa's injury woes as he gets older. Sharp is a 30/30 type guy who can play on the PP, PK and play C or W equally well. He's a big part of their F depth. A trade of Sharp for Staal would be more than fair, though. There's no way we get any extra gravy out of that deal...

Frolik = badly overrated. The guy has had every opportunity to excel at this point, playing with the good players and lots of ice time at different points on both teams. I'd take him as an extra. If they wanted to swap Martin / Niskanen for Frolik or something similar, but that's it. No way in hell should he be a centerpiece in a deal for Staal.
The Hawks may actually want to add Frolik just to get him off the payroll. He is essentially their slightly cheaper Martin. Can't do jack for 2.5 million. Getting Sharp alone >>> Sharp + Frolik, unless as you say Martin also goes the other way.

Also, I don't see any other possible center piece the Hawks would have for a Staal deal besides Sharp. Unless Bowman was seriously dropped on his head one too many times as a kid and would rather part with Seabrook.

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05-12-2012, 02:42 PM
  #233
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Thinking chicago would trade Sharp, even for Staal, is like thinking Pittsburgh would ship out Neal for a good second pairing defenseman. That's just not the piece they would move to fill the hole they have because Sharp's too useful to their team.

Neal's even an insufficient comparable to illustrate how unlikely this is because sharp's more versatile and has been putting up big numbers for longer.

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05-12-2012, 02:44 PM
  #234
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one thing ive been thinking about since the end of our playoffs was the whole 7-man defense we used for part of the series with the flyers. Im curious about it as I cant really recall ever seeing it or hearing too much about it in the past. Lately ive been thinking that maybe we could use this scheme, sacrificing a forward roster spot for an extra defenseman, and essentially this would clear up some playing time on the forward side where Staal can come in and take that extra time as part of a larger plan to give him more of an offensive role that he apparently wants.

could this work?

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05-12-2012, 02:47 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by crosby is the sauce View Post
one thing ive been thinking about since the end of our playoffs was the whole 7-man defense we used for part of the series with the flyers. Im curious about it as I cant really recall ever seeing it or hearing too much about it in the past. Lately ive been thinking that maybe we could use this scheme, sacrificing a forward roster spot for an extra defenseman, and essentially this would clear up some playing time on the forward side where Staal can come in and take that extra time as part of a larger plan to give him more of an offensive role that he apparently wants.

could this work?
Kevin Constantine used to do this. My recollection is, outside an upset win against Jersey, the top line players usually looked gassed by season end because the fourth line wasn't getting enough shifts all year to give them a break.

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05-12-2012, 03:14 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Thinking chicago would trade Sharp, even for Staal, is like thinking Pittsburgh would ship out Neal for a good second pairing defenseman. That's just not the piece they would move to fill the hole they have because Sharp's too useful to their team.
Yeah, they seem rather unlikely to make a big trade this summer. They may move some unjustifiedly high cap hits out (Hjalmarsson, Frolik, Bolland), if they can do that, and may be able to get a decent goalie for something around Stalberg/1st, but other than that, with all core players and Saad off the table, it's probably going to be a silent offseason there.

It's just that when you think about teams, which really need a first or second center, Chicago is one of the bigger teams coming to mind, so speculation is not going to stop any time soon.

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05-12-2012, 03:18 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Thinking chicago would trade Sharp, even for Staal, is like thinking Pittsburgh would ship out Neal for a good second pairing defenseman. That's just not the piece they would move to fill the hole they have because Sharp's too useful to their team.

Neal's even an insufficient comparable to illustrate how unlikely this is because sharp's more versatile and has been putting up big numbers for longer.
So Staal is a good second pairing defenseman? This is a terrible analogy. Staal and Sharp's values are pretty comparable IMO.

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05-12-2012, 03:39 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
So Staal is a good second pairing defenseman? This is a terrible analogy. Staal and Sharp's values are pretty comparable IMO.
I was thinking the same thing. How on earth is Staal on as valuable as a second pairing D-man? Considering Staal could command almost 7 million on the open market and Sharp would not kind of makes that statement way off.

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05-12-2012, 03:48 PM
  #239
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Do you guys think Staal would sign even if we keep him at 3rd line center?

Keep him at 3rd line center and give him shifts in the top 6, give him top PP and PK time. That would give him a bigger offensive role on the team and we can still keep the 3C model.

You guys think Staal would agree?

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05-12-2012, 03:52 PM
  #240
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Are we even sure he wants out because he doesn't want to be a 3C any more? Have we gotten any confirmation on his stance, or is it all still just here say and conjecture?

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05-12-2012, 03:54 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
Are we even sure he wants out because he doesn't want to be a 3C any more? Have we gotten any confirmation on his stance, or is it all still just here say and conjecture?
Pure speculation.

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05-12-2012, 03:55 PM
  #242
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He mentioned that it was fun when Sid was out and the offensive opportunities and production increased. I think that tells you something.

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05-12-2012, 04:05 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Do you guys think Staal would sign even if we keep him at 3rd line center?

Keep him at 3rd line center and give him shifts in the top 6, give him top PP and PK time. That would give him a bigger offensive role on the team and we can still keep the 3C model.

You guys think Staal would agree?
If we want to keep Staal I'm pretty sure we could do it. The question is, do we think Staal is worth whatever he's going to get payed as either a 3rd line center or as a wing? I don't think he is. That's me assuming he will take at least 6m to sign. I personally don't think he's a 6mil winger and I don't think its smart to pay 6m for a 3rd line center. If we can sign him for less than that then I hope we do.

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05-12-2012, 04:09 PM
  #244
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So Staal is a good second pairing defenseman? This is a terrible analogy. Staal and Sharp's values are pretty comparable IMO.
Values are relative to need. If your opinion is a 50-70 point center who kills penalties is more valuable to Chicago than a 65-80 point, all-situations, any-position forward who is the keystone of their powerplay, then your opinion is simply wrong.

Hockey is not some computer game, where an 83 and and 85 make for a good trade for both sides. Where you can put a tarfoot like Bobby Ryan with the league's best skater and expect them to mesh.

Chicago has a need for a second line center. They are not going to create 2 more holes they didn't have before to do that, while giving themselves less utility and subtracting goals from the lineup.

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05-12-2012, 04:31 PM
  #245
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Two words: Mikko Koivu.

Koivu has a career high 71 points two years ago. He has fewer goals in his best season than Staal had in 62 games this season. And, once again, Staal, in a 2C role with Dupuis and Sullivan, was running at a 40g, 30a pace. Then, add Staal's playoff performance this year, his playoff experience overall. And, top it off with the fact that Staal will be five years young when his third contract starts and the general consensus that Staal is still on an upward trajectory in terms of his development.

Minnesota gave Koivu 6.7M per for his third contract going into this year. And, you're telling me (a) that Staal's agent won't set that as the low bar if he hits free agency and (b) that he won't get that, not just from one crazy team, but instead from a couple of teams?

I agree with you about what Staal's value should be and is to the Penguins. But, I think his market value-- what he'd get as a free agent-- is a minimum 750K higher than the range you've set.

In fairness, Minnesota was also a pretty bad team at the time and didn't have the #1st overall draft picks to show for it to brighten their outlook, nor any exciting wingers for him to play with. As a result, IMO, they had to overpay Koivu (and even Backstrom) to compel them to stay.

Koivu's value to that team is higher than his inherent value (if he was on other teams) and I think he wouldn't have demanded/commanded that much money if he was on other, winning organizations. So while I have no doubt there would be some teams out there that would give Jordan similar money, I don't think that's a reasonable comparable the way guys like Bergeron/Plekanec/Kesler/Neal are.

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05-12-2012, 04:51 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Values are relative to need. If your opinion is a 50-70 point center who kills penalties is more valuable to Chicago than a 65-80 point, all-situations, any-position forward who is the keystone of their powerplay, then your opinion is simply wrong.

Hockey is not some computer game, where an 83 and and 85 make for a good trade for both sides. Where you can put a tarfoot like Bobby Ryan with the league's best skater and expect them to mesh.

Chicago has a need for a second line center. They are not going to create 2 more holes they didn't have before to do that, while giving themselves less utility and subtracting goals from the lineup.
haha you are selling Staal really short here. Staal is an elite PKer so he beats out Sharp there. He is a legit shutdown (former Selke nominee) and scoring line center. He beats out Sharp there. He is 23 years old and has played very little PP time. It's not hard to imagine him stepping into a PP unit and succeeding if given the opportunity. Sharp is a PP guy right now so I'll give the goal scoring edge to him, but it's closer than you think.

It's all opinions anyway, but thanks for telling me mine is wrong.

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05-12-2012, 04:52 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
In fairness, Minnesota was also a pretty bad team at the time and didn't have the #1st overall draft picks to show for it to brighten their outlook, nor any exciting wingers for him to play with. As a result, IMO, they had to overpay Koivu (and even Backstrom) to compel them to stay.

Koivu's value to that team is higher than his inherent value (if he was on other teams) and I think he wouldn't have demanded/commanded that much money if he was on other, winning organizations. So while I have no doubt there would be some teams out there that would give Jordan similar money, I don't think that's a reasonable comparable the way guys like Bergeron/Plekanec/Kesler/Neal are.
That doesn't mean Staal and his agent won't use him as a comparable.

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05-12-2012, 04:59 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Values are relative to need. If your opinion is a 50-70 point center who kills penalties is more valuable to Chicago than a 65-80 point, all-situations, any-position forward who is the keystone of their powerplay, then your opinion is simply wrong.
Personally I think you are seriously not seeing the forrest through the trees, when you think Chicago doesn't need to put more effort into getting a second line center than into a second pairing defender (even though Chicago could sure benefit from some of those too ).
Kruger put up, like what, 25 points? CHI moved Kane there, who not only is at least as much of a square peg in a round hole as Staal is on the wing, but also sucks giant donkey balls at faceoffs. Chicago's PK sucks, their PP sucks too without Toews, and maybe, just maybe second line scoring could benefit from having an acutal center, instead of just relying on Hossa going into beast mode all the time.
Like, I am not saying Chicago could not try with Jokinen, if they consider that a better move than parting with any core player, but to say second center is not a need for them, is just patently stupid.

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05-12-2012, 05:00 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
haha you are selling Staal really short here. Staal is an elite PKer so he beats out Sharp there. He is a legit shutdown (former Selke nominee) and scoring line center. He beats out Sharp there. He is 23 years old and has played very little PP time. It's not hard to imagine him stepping into a PP unit and succeeding if given the opportunity. Sharp is a PP guy right now so I'll give the goal scoring edge to him, but it's closer than you think.

It's all opinions anyway, but thanks for telling me mine is wrong.
I'm going to keep pointing this out. That sentence should have an or instead of an and. He is either a scoring line center or a very good defensive center. He is not both at the same time.

I still agree with you overall though; Staal and Sharp is a pretty even deal. Anything they might be losing is made up for by getting 7 years younger.

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05-12-2012, 05:08 PM
  #250
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I'm going to keep pointing this out. That sentence should have an or instead of an and. He is either a scoring line center or a very good defensive center. He is not both at the same time.

I still agree with you overall though; Staal and Sharp is a pretty even deal. Anything they might be losing is made up for by getting 7 years younger.
That's a fair point. I think Staal has both abilities which is extremely valuable. Plus, I think the 3rd line shut down thing is overrated. You could put Staal out there in a scoring role against another team's top players and accomplish both.

For example, say he's on Chicago's second line with Hossa and Stalberg. I think you could put that line up against the Sedins, shut them down and be a significant scoring threat.

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