HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Luongo Trade Talk Part. 3

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-12-2012, 12:51 PM
  #126
ddawg1950
Registered User
 
ddawg1950's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Signing Cory to a one year deal might be the kiss of death on any supposed window we have.

We'd be running with Lack and insert UFA in 2013-2014.
Yeah, that is a gamble that Gillis will not make.

ddawg1950 is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 12:54 PM
  #127
billvanseattle
Registered User
 
billvanseattle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: bellingham
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,121
vCash: 500
This is a professional league, and these guys are being paid enough to act like professionals.

I was great of Lou to say he would waive his NTC if it will help the team. Professional attitude!

If they are both here because it turns out to be the best option for the Canucks, then we have one of them sitting on the bench, or splitting the duties 50-50. Of course Schneids is getting a hefty pay raise. But they will be sitting there with a damn good contract for both of them.

Reality is that likely one of them will be traded. The value will be somewhat higher for Schneider, IF he is signed at a reasonable deal. The problem is that there have been 30 goalies in the last 20 years that were the next coming of JC, and (like the reports of JC returning) almost all of them did not pan out as long term consistent successes. Roy and Brodeur are the only 2 that have been great every year.

I love Schneider, but he is not going to get a 10 yr $40 M contract. He is probably going to get 3 or 4 yrs at somewhere between $3 - 3.75 M.

billvanseattle is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 01:12 PM
  #128
Proto
Registered User
 
Proto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
I doubt they move Lupul, who would Kessel play with? And Kulimen? What is he, a 3rd liner on the Canucks? Higgins is better and he can't seem to stick any higher than 3rd line.

We don't need another 30 point guy.

The leafs are just poor trade partners for us.
Kulemin is 25 and had 30 goals and 57 points just two seasons ago. In that season he shot an unsustainable 17%, but this season he shot an equally unlikely 6%. He's probably more like an 11-12% shooter (read: quite a bit better than average) based on the rest of his career, so he's probably good for 20 goals and 45 points, even if he doesn't progress. Basically, he could be what Mason Raymond was in his one good season, but perhaps more consistently.

I'm willing to bet that last season was an aberration for Kulemin playing for a coach he seemed to have issues with. He'd be a skilled, buy-low piece in the deal. The Canucks could have used another player like Kulemin this year, for sure. If you can get him as a throw-in second piece in a deal for Luongo, I think you take it.

Proto is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 01:19 PM
  #129
AvantiCanada*
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alternate View Post
there's just no way we can go into camp next season with Luongo and Schneider both on the team. Maybe Luongo can and would handle being a #2, there's still no way it wouldn't be a distraction to the team and an unnecessary headache to AV.

I also doubt CS signs any long term deal with Luongo still on the team. More likely scenerio is MG and CS agree to terms, but CS holds off signing until Luongo gets moved.

This can't be dragged on and on. It doesn't have to be rushed, but it can't go all summer either.
Pretty much bang on.

AvantiCanada* is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 01:23 PM
  #130
Hal 9000*
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,148
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Kulemin is 25 and had 30 goals and 57 points just two seasons ago. In that season he shot an unsustainable 17%, but this season he shot an equally unlikely 6%. He's probably more like an 11-12% shooter (read: quite a bit better than average) based on the rest of his career, so he's probably good for 20 goals and 45 points, even if he doesn't progress. Basically, he could be what Mason Raymond was in his one good season, but perhaps more consistently.

I'm willing to bet that last season was an aberration for Kulemin playing for a coach he seemed to have issues with. He'd be a skilled, buy-low piece in the deal. The Canucks could have used another player like Kulemin this year, for sure. If you can get him as a throw-in second piece in a deal for Luongo, I think you take it.
More likely that he would be what Mason Raymond is now. A guy who has scored in the past and still fools some GM's and coaches that he'll do it again. I think he is a generic 3rd liner, sometimes mediocre 2nd line player. Dime a dozen, find them on the waiver wire player.

Hal 9000* is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 01:23 PM
  #131
PHIFLY28
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
bit off topic but what would it take to get malhotra to philly how about
VAN-Malhotra,raymond
FOR
20TH OVERALL PICK,BEN HOLMSTROM AND 2ND NEXT YEAR
THOUGHTS?

PHIFLY28 is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 01:31 PM
  #132
Proto
Registered User
 
Proto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
More likely that he would be what Mason Raymond is now. A guy who has scored in the past and still fools some GM's and coaches that he'll do it again. I think he is a generic 3rd liner, sometimes mediocre 2nd line player. Dime a dozen, find them on the waiver wire player.
Based on what? Raymond is a guy who has shot around 9% for his career. Kulemin is about a 12% shooter. That's a pretty drastic difference, and that includes Kulemin playing on much worse teams than Raymond has. Kulemin doesn't have the one-shot ability of a guy like Alex Semin (about a 14% shooter), but he's still quite a bit better than average.

Kulemin can produce offensively, but he doesn't generate enough shots to be a consistent 30 goal threat... yet, anyway. On a vastly superior Fenwick team like Vancouver, Kulemin could blossom from a legit 2nd liner (which I think he already is) into a borderline 1st-line talent. Kulemin has only shot less than 11% once in his career. Mason Raymond is a career 9% shooter. Raymond was only 1% under his career average this year, so it's not like he was incredibly unlucky.

Raymond's utility is that he can play a solid defensive/puck control game and kill penalties, but the Canucks have scores of guys like that. I think Kulemin is a great buy-low option. I'm not a huge proponent of him, but there is something there to look at, especially when he's being run out of town after a horrible season.

Proto is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 01:44 PM
  #133
ferroid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 470
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHIFLY28 View Post
bit off topic but what would it take to get malhotra to philly how about
VAN-Malhotra,raymond
FOR
20TH OVERALL PICK,BEN HOLMSTROM AND 2ND NEXT YEAR
THOUGHTS?
Vancouver takes that and runs I think.

ferroid is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 01:52 PM
  #134
y2kcanucks
Cult of Personality
 
y2kcanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,921
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to y2kcanucks
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHIFLY28 View Post
bit off topic but what would it take to get malhotra to philly how about
VAN-Malhotra,raymond
FOR
20TH OVERALL PICK,BEN HOLMSTROM AND 2ND NEXT YEAR
THOUGHTS?
There's talk that the Canucks may look to move Malhotra, so something like this would probably work.

__________________
http://www.vancitynitetours.com
y2kcanucks is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 01:58 PM
  #135
Elliot20
Registered User
 
Elliot20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,543
vCash: 500
From Toronto, the main target is probably Gardiner due to the Schultz factor.

But taking on Komisarek's cap shouldn't be a problem.

Elliot20 is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 01:59 PM
  #136
y2kcanucks
Cult of Personality
 
y2kcanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,921
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to y2kcanucks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot20 View Post
From Toronto, the main target is probably Gardiner due to the Schultz factor.

But taking on Komisarek's cap shouldn't be a problem.
It will be a problem. Komisarek has a NMC meaning we can't bury him in the minors (unless he's fond of Chicago). I'd rather take on someone like Colby Armstrong and bury him.

y2kcanucks is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 02:03 PM
  #137
Elliot20
Registered User
 
Elliot20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,543
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
It will be a problem. Komisarek has a NMC meaning we can't bury him in the minors (unless he's fond of Chicago). I'd rather take on someone like Colby Armstrong and bury him.
But it's also only a one year left. So if we could get a better prospect in return then long term it's worth it.

Elliot20 is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 02:11 PM
  #138
y2kcanucks
Cult of Personality
 
y2kcanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,921
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to y2kcanucks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot20 View Post
But it's also only a one year left. So if we could get a better prospect in return then long term it's worth it.
Only if you're willing to write off this year.

y2kcanucks is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 02:13 PM
  #139
Elliot20
Registered User
 
Elliot20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,543
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Only if you're willing to write off this year.
Nah, won't be a write-off.

Elliot20 is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 02:22 PM
  #140
y2kcanucks
Cult of Personality
 
y2kcanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,921
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to y2kcanucks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot20 View Post
Nah, won't be a write-off.
Trading Luongo for Gardiner and Komisarek, even if we can sign Justin Schultz, leaves us with no cap space to upgrade our offense. Unless we can improve our crap playoff offense, we aren't going anywhere.

y2kcanucks is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 02:25 PM
  #141
Hal 9000*
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,148
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Based on what? Raymond is a guy who has shot around 9% for his career. Kulemin is about a 12% shooter. That's a pretty drastic difference, and that includes Kulemin playing on much worse teams than Raymond has. Kulemin doesn't have the one-shot ability of a guy like Alex Semin (about a 14% shooter), but he's still quite a bit better than average.

Kulemin can produce offensively, but he doesn't generate enough shots to be a consistent 30 goal threat... yet, anyway. On a vastly superior Fenwick team like Vancouver, Kulemin could blossom from a legit 2nd liner (which I think he already is) into a borderline 1st-line talent. Kulemin has only shot less than 11% once in his career. Mason Raymond is a career 9% shooter. Raymond was only 1% under his career average this year, so it's not like he was incredibly unlucky.

Raymond's utility is that he can play a solid defensive/puck control game and kill penalties, but the Canucks have scores of guys like that. I think Kulemin is a great buy-low option. I'm not a huge proponent of him, but there is something there to look at, especially when he's being run out of town after a horrible season.
Well, I'm certainly not prepared to fight with anybody armed with a Fenwick, but I know what I see, and what I see from Kulemin is just more of what we have too much of.

I just don't want him. I don't want anybody who TO would be prepared to give up.

Hal 9000* is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 02:32 PM
  #142
y2kcanucks
Cult of Personality
 
y2kcanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,921
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to y2kcanucks
Kulemin is a big do not want. 7 goals from him last season?

I don't think he's a 7 goal scorer, but neither is he a 30 goal scorer (long-term). He's probably more of a 15 goal scorer and we don't need any more of those on this team. He doesn't score enough to be in our top 6, and he's not good enough defensively to be in a shutdown role.

y2kcanucks is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 02:37 PM
  #143
AvantiCanada*
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Kulemin is a big do not want. 7 goals from him last season?

I don't think he's a 7 goal scorer, but neither is he a 30 goal scorer (long-term). He's probably more of a 15 goal scorer and we don't need any more of those on this team. He doesn't score enough to be in our top 6, and he's not good enough defensively to be in a shutdown role.
He's on the soft side, as well. Doesn't particularly make our top 9 tougher to play against. He's pretty much pressbox fodder when he go's cold.

AvantiCanada* is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 02:38 PM
  #144
AndyPipkin
PSN: Lord_Of_War
 
AndyPipkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,769
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Kulemin is a big do not want. 7 goals from him last season?

I don't think he's a 7 goal scorer, but neither is he a 30 goal scorer (long-term). He's probably more of a 15 goal scorer and we don't need any more of those on this team. He doesn't score enough to be in our top 6, and he's not good enough defensively to be in a shutdown role.
Agreed. Do not want.

I think a poster in the Trade section said it best when it was gonna be less then what Canucks fans want, but more then what other team's fans have been offering.
He said something like: A good prospect player(In the Schenn mold. So a guy who has been in the NHL for a few years, but is still really young) + A 2nd/3rd liner + A low 1st or high 2nd.

AndyPipkin is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 02:54 PM
  #145
Jrtu
Registered User
 
Jrtu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHIFLY28 View Post
bit off topic but what would it take to get malhotra to philly how about
VAN-Malhotra,raymond
FOR
20TH OVERALL PICK,BEN HOLMSTROM AND 2ND NEXT YEAR
THOUGHTS?
Even with a signed Raymond, I'd gladly do that deal just for the 20th overall pick alone. This would be highway robbery!

Jrtu is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 03:07 PM
  #146
Just A Bit Outside
Playoffs??!
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,753
vCash: 500
Ah, missed the days of the Canucks getting knocked out by the 2nd round and a solid month and half of people *****ing/whining/arguing/conjuring up trades that every other fan thinks is crap.

It's always interesting.

Anyway, this offseason is obviously the TSN turning point for this group of players for the next couple years. It can either cause us to turn into San Jose or allow the Canucks atleast another 1-2 yrs to compete for a Cup.

It all starts with Luongo and what happens with him. If he does get traded the return has to be significant. If not, then they should look at trading Schneider. If we dump Luongo just because this team can easily fall back into the pack.

Best part is no one knows what the return for Luongo could be.

As Canuck fans we still hold him in high regard regardless of some of his playoff failings.

Most other fans think he's not worth the now defunct penny and only wanna give up scraps for him.

Only once he is ever traded will we ever know and it will turn people's heads regardless in either a good or bad way.

For the Canucks and their fans, here's hoping it's in a good way.

Just A Bit Outside is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 03:14 PM
  #147
I in the Eye
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Country:
Posts: 4,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alternate View Post
there's just no way we can go into camp next season with Luongo and Schneider both on the team. Maybe Luongo can and would handle being a #2, there's still no way it wouldn't be a distraction to the team and an unnecessary headache to AV.

I also doubt CS signs any long term deal with Luongo still on the team. More likely scenerio is MG and CS agree to terms, but CS holds off signing until Luongo gets moved.

This can't be dragged on and on. It doesn't have to be rushed, but it can't go all summer either. The way I see it, if Luongo is half as good as Pauser makes him out to be there will be a market. If that market won't bring back "good value", then it would be because Luongo isn't viewed as a top end goalie at this point, so why would we want to keep him hoping his value will somehow increase?

Either Luongo is still a top 10 goalie worth his contract, in which case getting fair value shouldn't be difficult. Or he's not a top goalie anymore, making Schneider the obvious choice and Luongo not worth any potential distractions to the team/coaches/fanbase/media/etc. Either way, keeping both isn't going to happen.
I agree that it would be in everyone's best interest to have Luongo traded ASAP... I agree that having it all dealt with before training camp next season would be, by far, the ideal outcome...

To me, there are three main opportunities this offseason to trade Luongo: (1) draft; (2) after free agent season; and (3) prior to training camp... I hope it gets done... and the return is good / comparable to the contributions that Luongo brings to this team...

This is an unusual off-season though... The new CBA will be negotiated, and before taking on a Luongo contract, teams might first wait to see what the CBA particulars are... Teams might first wait to see what the salary cap is (which might not be known until after the CBA is finalized)...

I do think that Luongo has great value... but I also think that teams are going to use the uncertainty (both the new CBA, and Luongo's long-term contract) as a way to try and get Luongo much cheaper than he's worth... I think that it may take a team actually being desperate (not predicted to being desperate) to finally pull the trigger on a great return...

As long as Gillis is upfront and honest with Luongo (and keeps him / his agent in the loop) regarding what is going on, and what the plans are... I don't think Luongo would have a problem going into training camp on this team (another trade opportunity after training camp - and with the uncertainty of the offseason over, and GM's seeing what they have going into the season, this might actually be the best time to trade Luongo)... I also don't think that Luongo would have a problem with starting next season on the team... But, if I'm Gillis, I ask him straight out... "This offseason is unusual (CBA) and it is unclear if we will be able to send you to your ideal destinations right now... If the team needs it, would you be willing to come back to training camp, and perhaps the season, with the plan to trade you as soon as the right situation presents itself?" IMO, let Luongo say yes or no... Let Luongo dictate how much he is prepared or not to take...

Assume one or the other... What is more important: (1) getting a good return for Luongo; or (2) having Luongo off of the team before training camp?

Obviously, getting a good return for Luongo, and having Luongo off of the team before training camp is by far the best option (assuming Luongo is getting traded), but I think it's possible nothing happens until after the CBA is finalized... Luongo is an outstanding goaltender, but he's also a long term committment (a marriage, really)... I'd think teams might want to know the operational landscape before making the committment...

I'd rather keep Luongo on the team (as long as he and Schneider both say they're ok with it) and get a good return back, then accept a subpar return prior to training camp... That's my vote... If one or the other say they have a problem with it, that's different... It's not all that unusual for a guy leaving to stay behind for a period of time to make sure the new guy is fully prepared, and to close things up (I guess in the hockey world it is, though)... I think he actually deserves a better send off than what he got last playoffs... Hell, if I'm Gillis (and if Luongo needs to stay during training camp), I put on "Roberto Luongo Day"... Send him off as a King... Not a chump... Let the fans give him a 5 minute standing ovation... The only reason Luongo is getting traded (if he's getting traded) is because of Cory Schneider... It has nothing to do with Roberto Luongo... Hell, Luongo himself acknowledged that... Celebrate his time here... It doesn't necessarily have to be a negative to have Luongo around a while longer (if need be)... Yes, can be a very awkward situation... but you can try to make it as positive and comfortable as you can... There doesn't need to be hard feelings all around... and you can actually do it in a way that (when looking back on his life), Luongo actually really appreciated being sent off "properly" and with "respect"...

But, I do think it's best to have Luongo dealt with before training camp... I just think it might not be possible (given this unique offseason)... and I don't think that Gillis should accept a subpar return, if he doesn't have to...


Last edited by I in the Eye: 05-12-2012 at 03:20 PM.
I in the Eye is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 03:41 PM
  #148
Tiranis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 20,975
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Kulemin is a big do not want. 7 goals from him last season?

I don't think he's a 7 goal scorer, but neither is he a 30 goal scorer (long-term). He's probably more of a 15 goal scorer and we don't need any more of those on this team. He doesn't score enough to be in our top 6, and he's not good enough defensively to be in a shutdown role.
Not good enough defensively based on what exactly? Three years in a row he's Top 5 in QoC and also Top 5 in Corsi Relative. He's a good player, we would be lucky to have him since he's likely going to sign a 2-3 year deal at 2.5-3m due to his mediocre offensive output this past year. Big guy, consistent effort, skates well, plays well defensively — would be an excellent 3rd liner and maybe even 2nd liner if he gets back to scoring. Big upgrade on Raymond and somewhat of an upgrade on Higgins. Hell, he could even be backup plan for Burrows in case Burr demands too much.


Last edited by Tiranis: 05-12-2012 at 03:47 PM.
Tiranis is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 04:17 PM
  #149
Elliot20
Registered User
 
Elliot20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,543
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Not good enough defensively based on what exactly? Three years in a row he's Top 5 in QoC and also Top 5 in Corsi Relative. He's a good player, we would be lucky to have him since he's likely going to sign a 2-3 year deal at 2.5-3m due to his mediocre offensive output this past year. Big guy, consistent effort, skates well, plays well defensively would be an excellent 3rd liner and maybe even 2nd liner if he gets back to scoring. Big upgrade on Raymond and somewhat of an upgrade on Higgins. Hell, he could even be backup plan for Burrows in case Burr demands too much.
With all due respect....don't we have enough of those? I think the problem this year was the lack of top 6 talent who could consistently create offense on their own.

Elliot20 is offline  
Old
05-12-2012, 05:19 PM
  #150
n00bxQb
Registered User
 
n00bxQb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,085
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
There's talk that the Canucks may look to move Malhotra, so something like this would probably work.
Only problem with that is that Manny signed an NTC and lives in Victoria. I can't see his wife giving the go-ahead for him to waive his NTC to go to the other side of the continent.

On topic, I don't know how you can stick with Luongo at this point. He's a great goaltender, but the city hates him (not everyone in it, but a significant number of fans and basically everyone in the media) and he will be scrutinized even more if we do keep him. It seems like a lose/lose situation to keep Lu, IMO.

n00bxQb is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:52 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.