HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Let the propaganda continue!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-15-2004, 06:26 PM
  #1
Strazzobosco
Registered User
 
Strazzobosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Fairfax, VA
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 342
vCash: 500
Let the propaganda continue!

Well, we've all seen the owner's side pretty much everywhere (especially on TSN). Here's a nice article showing the other side (mine).
http://www.nypost.com/sports/21301.htm
(granted it IS Larry Brooks...)
I still believe that the business of hockey still is the owners and GMs ' job and not their employees. Never forget who chose to give Yashin a $90,000,000 contract

Strazzobosco is offline  
Old
12-15-2004, 06:34 PM
  #2
whitecalvus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 56
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumitru123
Well, we've all seen the owner's side pretty much everywhere (especially on TSN). Here's a nice article showing the other side (mine).
http://www.nypost.com/sports/21301.htm
(granted it IS Larry Brooks...)
I still believe that the business of hockey still is the owners and GMs ' job and not their employees. Never forget who chose to give Yashin a $90,000,000 contract

Which employees in the normal world have agents representing them and have the ability to negotiate their salary, bonuses, or to reject an offer and ask for more, or having arbitrationary processes to determine what they are getting is "fair" or not?

Yes, the owners and GMs's job is to do business, but do not be so quick to let the players go off so easily. Since hockey players (the employees) have the ability to negotiate contracts with the support of an agent, they are ALSO responsible for the business of hockey.


Last edited by whitecalvus: 12-15-2004 at 06:50 PM.
whitecalvus is offline  
Old
12-15-2004, 06:50 PM
  #3
Strazzobosco
Registered User
 
Strazzobosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Fairfax, VA
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 342
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big TEE
Which employees in the normal world have agents representing them and have the ability to negotiate their salary, bonuses, or to reject an offer and ask for more, or having arbitrationary processes to determine what they are getting is "fair"?

Yes, the owners and GMs's job is to do business, but do not be so quick to let the players go off so easily. Since hockey players (the employees) have the ability to negotiate contracts WITH the support of an agent, they are ALSO responsible for the business of hockey.
Their responsibility ends at smiling, looking pretty talking to the media, and playing hockey. They are the products and the employees. Their agents are just there so the owners don't take advantage of them like in the 50s (players aren't that smart...). (and you'd be surprised about agents in the real world; headhunters work the same way in the medical, IT fields to name a couple, and the businesses aren't on the verge of dying)

I agree that a ceiling must be imposed, but way higher than 35 million! Luxury taxes from 40 to 50 million, with a ceiling at 50 million (adjusted yearly for inflation). Why penalize teams with good marketing? Revenue sharing just discourages good marketing and business practices.

And above all, make the trading deadline MUCH earlier, around the all-star break. There's way too many trades in this league to draw in new fans.

Strazzobosco is offline  
Old
12-15-2004, 07:00 PM
  #4
whitecalvus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 56
vCash: 500
First of all, players are not the product, the game of hockey IS the product. They are paid to play the game.

How are they being taken advantage of? 1.8 mil is too little for them to make? Yes, people were being taken advantage of back in the 50's, but we're no longer in the 50's. Nowadays, we have unions that overprotect the employees, causing them to demand for higher pay, more bonuses, and they virtually want the employers not to make a profit. But think of it this way, if your employer doesn't make money, you won't have a job? Is there a law against business owners making a buck?

whitecalvus is offline  
Old
12-15-2004, 07:29 PM
  #5
LePoche69
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,510
vCash: 500
To compare Hockey to any other business is absurd. In other business, the goal is to make as much money as possible and either you don't care about the opposition, or you do care about make them disappear. There is no other link between the corporations of a same business.

Pro sport is completly different. It's true that owners' goal is still to make as much money as possible. But a given team has nothing to gain to drive another team into bankrupcy. They need each other, otherwise there is no game. By the NHL (or any other pro league) the corporations (teams) are linked in a manner that no other corporations are linked. A proof that pro sports situation is different is his exemption of the anti-trust law.

So it makes me sick to hear the players telling us that it's the owners who create this mess. They also say that there allready is a "salary cap" in the form of each teams' budget. It's all PR affirmation because it's a biaise way of telling the story.

Of course every team has is own budget and it's up to the owners to respect it or not. But the problem is that every teams don't have the same budget and it's not working, at least in the reality of the link explained above. You can't have a real and fair sport event if every team has different budget. And therefore, sometimes, poorer teams have to spend over their budget if they want to have a chance to compete in the playoffs against the richer teams who don't care how much they spend. And so, there is a big firework of crazy salaries.

So part of the truth (at least) is that the owners can't fix the problem all by themselves and it has nothing to do with their sanity (at least not everything). It has to do with the pro sport reality, period.

To me, the real problem is that the players want to be paid in a free market like in any other business despite the fact that pro sports are not like any other business. It is a business based on opposition and therefore, you NEED healthy opposition.

LePoche69 is offline  
Old
12-15-2004, 07:39 PM
  #6
MasterD
Registered User
 
MasterD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,534
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumitru123
There's way too many trades in this league to draw in new fans.

I don't know if it stops new fans from coming to the league, but I agree that there are to many. I'd like it more if teams would build from the inside more.

Just look at our loved Habs, they,ve had big crazy cleanups like 3 times in the last 7-8 years, completely changing the face of the team except a few. That should not happen! (Let's not start bashing Houle and stuff, it's only an example... Too many players, big name players, change teams IMO)

MasterD is offline  
Old
12-15-2004, 07:39 PM
  #7
Kirk Muller
Registered User
 
Kirk Muller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brrr -18, Gomez Cold
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumitru123
Their responsibility ends at smiling, looking pretty talking to the media, and playing hockey. They are the products and the employees. Their agents are just there so the owners don't take advantage of them like in the 50s (players aren't that smart...). (and you'd be surprised about agents in the real world; headhunters work the same way in the medical, IT fields to name a couple, and the businesses aren't on the verge of dying)

I agree that a ceiling must be imposed, but way higher than 35 million! Luxury taxes from 40 to 50 million, with a ceiling at 50 million (adjusted yearly for inflation). Why penalize teams with good marketing? Revenue sharing just discourages good marketing and business practices.

And above all, make the trading deadline MUCH earlier, around the all-star break. There's way too many trades in this league to draw in new fans.

Players are not products once the word COLLUSION comes up. The players offer a service and are basically independent contractors.

Kirk Muller is offline  
Old
12-15-2004, 07:42 PM
  #8
Strazzobosco
Registered User
 
Strazzobosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Fairfax, VA
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 342
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big TEE
First of all, players are not the product, the game of hockey IS the product. They are paid to play the game.

How are they being taken advantage of? 1.8 mil is too little for them to make? Yes, people were being taken advantage of back in the 50's, but we're no longer in the 50's. Nowadays, we have unions that overprotect the employees, causing them to demand for higher pay, more bonuses, and they virtually want the employers not to make a profit. But think of it this way, if your employer doesn't make money, you won't have a job? Is there a law against business owners making a buck?

I don't see you wearing a jersey saying "hockey" on the back...
now seriously, half of the way the NHL sells the game is through the image of the players. Just look at this forum; do we generally discuss hockey or players? The product IS the players.
So if the NHL is making 350 billion off your back, what cut will you ask for? 45% ? 50%? or 95% of the profits like I would.
It was BETTMAN that had the expansion in mind, and it was him that put the game in today's state. More than half the NHL's losses come from Florida, Nashville, Atlanta, Anaheim, Carolina, and Pittsburgh... This wasn't the players' faults.
Inflation of salaries comes solely from garanteed contracts (arbitration equates through comparison, so doesn't really inflate), something the players were willing to drop down. The reason why the salaries are this high is due to Daigle/Yashin/Jagr/Bure like contracts, pure the GM's faults, so not really salary "inflation".

But I think we're weaving off topic. This thread is still about that article. What do you guys think about it?

Strazzobosco is offline  
Old
12-15-2004, 08:09 PM
  #9
Kirk Muller
Registered User
 
Kirk Muller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brrr -18, Gomez Cold
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumitru123
I don't see you wearing a jersey saying "hockey" on the back...
now seriously, half of the way the NHL sells the game is through the image of the players. Just look at this forum; do we generally discuss hockey or players? The product IS the players.
So if the NHL is making 350 billion off your back, what cut will you ask for? 45% ? 50%? or 95% of the profits like I would.
It was BETTMAN that had the expansion in mind, and it was him that put the game in today's state. More than half the NHL's losses come from Florida, Nashville, Atlanta, Anaheim, Carolina, and Pittsburgh... This wasn't the players' faults.
Inflation of salaries comes solely from garanteed contracts (arbitration equates through comparison, so doesn't really inflate), something the players were willing to drop down. The reason why the salaries are this high is due to Daigle/Yashin/Jagr/Bure like contracts, pure the GM's faults, so not really salary "inflation".

But I think we're weaving off topic. This thread is still about that article. What do you guys think about it?

Just like basically every business. You wear a uniform, thus, you are nothing more than someone advertising a product or a service. When asked where you work, your respond, again word of mouth advertising. We are all similiar but on a much smaller scale.

Now you can say all you want that contracts are owners faults, and while that is true technically, it doesn't solve the inherit inflationary problem of the league. While owners can walk away from contracts in arbitration, it doesn't help the league because markets aren't created the same. This isn't a regular business, this is has to be a partnership between teams and players to have any hope of thriving. And fact is, it is the NHL's league and should have the right to set caps because if the players are products, they should be able to set the pay, oh but wait, that is collusion.

Nothing, NOTHING is limiting the players from making an earning or maintaining a free market system, something the players like to throw around. If the players feel they are worth the money they want, then go to Europe, see if they will pay you. See if AHL teams will pay you a million, etc etc. That is one question I would like the players to answer, but they want to live in their artificial world that is the NHL and hide behind it.

Now there is a solution to be made but its a catch 22. Bettman promised a salary cap and the players don't want one. Thats problem one, now if the NHL countered with a strict luxury tax, something the players want, they would call that a cap. I wish the owners prosposed a luxury tax at Dollar per Dollar over 40 million. Fact is, if the players rejected it, I think it would almost be game set match in front of the NLRB and especially with the fans.

Kirk Muller is offline  
Old
12-16-2004, 12:19 PM
  #10
romain_jaime
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 576
vCash: 500
Trades should have to go through an approval phase by the league before it can happen like most other sports. This would insure that teams aren't just major league farm clubs like the expos were for many years.

romain_jaime is offline  
Old
12-16-2004, 12:51 PM
  #11
Stefan_Latulippe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumitru123
I don't see you wearing a jersey saying "hockey" on the back...
now seriously, half of the way the NHL sells the game is through the image of the players. Just look at this forum; do we generally discuss hockey or players? The product IS the players.
If the players were "hockey", then how come they dont start their own league? Why do they want to play in the NHL? I am a fan of the Montreal Canadiens and I hate the Leafs. I dont hate or like a player, I love a team and like/hate players from a team.

Stefan_Latulippe is offline  
Old
12-16-2004, 02:37 PM
  #12
Ace2000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mtl
Posts: 348
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Ace2000
i dont care what you say, if there's no revenue, how can the players get paid? its not about philosophy, its about money. Or lack thereof. They have a crappy deal with the network and the players still insist the numbers are wrong...

Ace2000 is offline  
Old
12-16-2004, 05:16 PM
  #13
goalchenyuk
Registered User
 
goalchenyuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: montreal
Country: Vatican City State
Posts: 8,360
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumitru123
I don't see you wearing a jersey saying "hockey" on the back...
The product IS the players.
So if the NHL is making 350 billion off your back, what cut will you ask for? 45% ? 50%? or 95% of the profits like I would.
and do you know a hockey player that is playing since 40 years ?

i am listening to the hockey since that time ,and after seeing stars like Béliveau and Lafleur , i can say that there is no reel star in our team since 10 years at least.But i still continue to follow my Canadians.Sure, great players are part of the product, but owners are the ones who are investing so much cash to buy a team .And a star needs a team and a league where to play.

nobody would pay 50 $ just to see a Yashin ,a Jagr alone in the ice

goalchenyuk is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.